S-04 and sourness?

Here's the stats:

Going for an English IPA
Mashed 10.5lbs of malt. Mashed at155F-156F Got 80% efficiency.

Hour and fifteen boil. Wort chilled to 62-64 degrees.
Pitched re-hydrated S-04 yeast and throughout fermentation the "fermometer" read 66-68F.
I go crazy sanitizing everything. My standards for sanitation never change from batch to batch. It was brewed on a Sunday and from when fermentation started (about five hours later) 24 - 30 hours go by and it was over. I didn't mess with it. I left to sit until the following Saturday, when I was planning on dry hopping it. I pulled a sample of beer and it's a little green tasting. Nice fruity esters and then this sourness. It's not pervasive. More than "slight" and less than "overbearing".

Aside from the sour tinge, I was concerned with it having such a high final gravity.
OG-1.060
FG-1.020
I know this strain leaves a higher FG, but come on!

It was still cloudy, so I know there are still a good bit of proteins and yeast in suspension that could be lending to the off flavor. Maybe I'm just tasting a really green beer?


Should I try to rouse the yeast back into suspension to try to get it to ferment out a little more?

Do you guys think this sourness at then end will taper off with time and cold conditioning?

Thanks for your help!

I've had a bit of what I assume is the same flavor you're describing, also when using s-04. I'm unsure of the cause, but I do think it has been fading slowly over time.

Maybe tartness is a better word for it than sour. I've gotten this bit of tartness from Fermentis T-58 as well as their WB-06. Of course, their S-05 is super clean.

S-04 is notorious for this flavor. I call it the s04 "twang" as it reminds me of a funky greek yogurt. I don't use s-04 for that reason. Lower ferment temps will reduce it a bit, though I have to sample an s-04 beer that was completely devoid of this character. Some people will tell you it's just part of the yeast flavor or that you had a batch batch and s04 makes a very clean tasting beer. I have a hard time believing that!

I must say, that is quite disheartening.
Well, maybe two ounces of saaz will help hide that flavor. Probably not.

That is really interesting. Every now and then I run an extract kit, and the most recent was a cooper's stout. Instead of the coopers yeast and dextrose, I added DME and used S-04. It finished suprisingly high (like around 1.020). Unfortunately I then overcarbed it a bit. It seems that there is a sourness that I associated with the overcarbing, but it seems to hang around even after all the CO2 is knocked out.

I know that some sourness or tartness is desirable in a stout, but this seems just a little more than I enjoy. I just assumed that my overcarbing was the sole source of this flavour, but your post has me wondering. I wonder if Coopers adds some sourness assuming that you are using a relatively neutral yeast like what they attach to the cans, and the S-04 just put it over the top.

I still have several packets left, and I will be using them in my next few batches. I'm sure that in some recipes a slight, balanced tartness would be really desirable.

Thanks for your post, it gives me something else to think about when I'm selecting my yeast.

You are right about s-04 being a monster early on though. I had blowoff in under 12 hours on the last beer I made.

i will never use s-04 again due to this flavor. i've ruined two beers with that yeast. i know a ton of people love it but the extra few bucks for a good liquid yeast is WELL worth it IMHO.

I'm finding bits and pieces about the tartness/sourness on other forums. There's too much from others having the same kind of results for it be an infected batch. Hmm...

Liquid yeast is not necessarily the answer.

I used S-04 and then did another ESB once again with whitbread/1099 and fermented it at 64*F according to the stickon therm on the side of my bucket. Both still had that tartness/twang. Pitched a huge starter, etc. It does subside with time but yuck. Do not use this in a Bitter/ESB etc. Stick with the Fullers strain from wyeast/whitelabs. It is much cleaner and more like the ESB's I have tasted

Electron, thanks for that info!

Wow - I use S-04 regularly, and have never gotten that sour flavor. I see the OP and electronjunkie noted their fermentation temperatures; 66-68 and 64F - can anyone else who has experienced this share their fermentation temps?

Also, how long has the beer with the off note conditioned, and when did it go away? I've never drank anything that I've fermented with S-04 at younger than a month... Would you guys say the sourness was gone by a month in the keg/bottle?

I thought I was crazy or having a sanitation issue for a while when I first started off - turns out all my issues were an off taste I picked up from Nottingham. I guess a few others get the same thing. In a way, it's a relief to track down the off taste to yeast strain rather than bad process.

Both batches I did primary for 1 week and one was in secondary for 2 weeks (OB), the other was in secondary for three weeks(ESB).

I made sure the temp never went above 64 before the Krausen dropped, then allowed it to go to 68*F after Krausen in primary.

I keg, so thats usually where I secondary. I have many cornies b/c my N-Law works for Pepsi, and one bucket.

Both got better after sitting in the keg cold for a month. None ever tasted great.

I did one mild with S-04 that turned out great after a 1-week primary. Another that got too hot when I was first starting out that had that S-04 tart/twang.

I have had more bad than good with S-04 and whitbread (both the same strain) and it is the only yeast I have ever had any trouble with. I have used US-05, many w/ American Wheat(1010), tons of Chimay (1214), One Fullers Wy1068. I am scared of S-04 but YMMV.

Maybe a month primary would have been better, but that was back when I did not do that. An OB is supposed to be ready quick, and so is a mild.

I now use Fullers and primary for much longer now. I honestly did not know that was OK and preferred until I finally heard JZ admit it was ok and it was repeated here in several threads.

I've done 3 batches with this yeast. Temps varied, as this was before I got my chilling box completed. 2 out of 3 showed the tang flavor- a dry stout and a scottish ale. The esb came through fine.

On the scottish ale I know my temps were a bit high (68 ambient). The esb was kept cooler (64 ambient). The stout I don't know. Based simply off flavor I assume it was a bit high.

The tartness faded in the stout after 2-3 months. The scottish took a bit longer -3 or 4 months.

Thanks for the details, guys.

electronjunkie said:

Both batches I did primary for 1 week and one was in secondary for 2 weeks (OB), the other was in secondary for three weeks(ESB).

I made sure the temp never went above 64 before the Krausen dropped, then allowed it to go to 68*F after Krausen in primary.

I keg, so thats usually where I secondary. I have many cornies b/c my N-Law works for Pepsi, and one bucket.

Both got better after sitting in the keg cold for a month. None ever tasted great.

I did one mild with S-04 that turned out great after a 1-week primary. Another that got too hot when I was first starting out that had that S-04 tart/twang.

I have had more bad than good with S-04 and whitbread (both the same strain) and it is the only yeast I have ever had any trouble with. I have used US-05, many w/ American Wheat(1010), tons of Chimay (1214), One Fullers Wy1068. I am scared of S-04 but YMMV.

Maybe a month primary would have been better, but that was back when I did not do that. An OB is supposed to be ready quick, and so is a mild.

I now use Fullers and primary for much longer now. I honestly did not know that was OK and preferred until I finally heard JZ admit it was ok and it was repeated here in several threads.

Click to expand...

Ezekielsays said:

I've done 3 batches with this yeast. Temps varied, as this was before I got my chilling box completed. 2 out of 3 showed the tang flavor- a dry stout and a scottish ale. The esb came through fine.

On the scottish ale I know my temps were a bit high (68 ambient). The esb was kept cooler (64 ambient). The stout I don't know. Based simply off flavor I assume it was a bit high.

The tartness faded in the stout after 2-3 months. The scottish took a bit longer -3 or 4 months.

Click to expand...

Huh. Temps are within range - guess it's just something you either taste or you don't? I never got a bit of sour off S-04, and I use it a lot for English styles and an Irish Red I like.

It throws fruitiness, more when it's run at a lower range or higher range, in my experience. I run my red low at 62F, and everything else at 65F. I let a mild creep up to 69F to see what would happen, and it threw more fruitiness than usual. Also, as above, I consumed it young.

I'll have to give that Fuller's strain a try with recipes I've used S-04 on and check out the difference. :rockin:

Try Notty in the recipe instead of 04 and ferment in the low 60's....

I've been dry hopping at 68F since Saturday. I might forgo the few extra days at room temp and put it in the kegerator to cold crash at 33F for the next week and a half. Force carb for week and see what we're looking at. I'm hosting a brew day with our association on the 19th and it's the only batch I'll have to offer (too many friends, not enough beer). It's not like I haven't ever hung my head in shame before. ha ha.

I'll join in on the S-04 hate-wagon. Freakin ruined my last Oatmeal stout, never again. Wyeast 1968 London ESB for the win.

pernox said:

Wow - I use S-04 regularly, and have never gotten that sour flavor. I see the OP and electronjunkie noted their fermentation temperatures; 66-68 and 64F - can anyone else who has experienced this share their fermentation temps?

Also, how long has the beer with the off note conditioned, and when did it go away? I've never drank anything that I've fermented with S-04 at younger than a month... Would you guys say the sourness was gone by a month in the keg/bottle?

Click to expand...

I also had this sour Off-taste with my previous Extract-Batches , using Safale S-04 .

By each Batch , I thought it was a contamination problem . Therefore , I did the sanitizing with more power . But , the Beer came out

with the same damn sour aftertaste each time and it gets worse with aging even after keeping it in the Bottle for 6 Weeks !

So , now I'm convinced that the Off-taste comes from S-04 and I'm going to brew a new Extract Batch , but this time I'll keep the

Temperature lower and will also do the Secondary phase for the first time to see if there would be any difference in the Result at the End .

Has anyone ever done it this way ?!

Or does anyone have any other suggestion ?!

Hector

I am not sure if I didn't just leave on the yeast long enough, or if the strain of Kent Goldings I was using caused it.

I have made so much good beer since then like APA's, Heffe's, Belgians. Using US-05, Bavarian Wheat Yeast, and Belgian Ardenes. I used yank it off primary when gravity stops dropping. Now I let it sit an extra week.

I really would like to make a nice ESB or anything English turn out well. So far I think I made a Mild years ago with S-04 that turned out ok but thats it. I've got temp control so its not a temp problem.

I tried a buddies ESB that used S-04 and it was delicious.

electronjunkie said:

I am not sure if I didn't just leave on the yeast long enough, or if the strain of Kent Goldings I was using caused it.

I have made so much good beer since then like APA's, Heffe's, Belgians. Using US-05, Bavarian Wheat Yeast, and Belgian Ardenes. I used yank it off primary when gravity stops dropping. Now I let it sit an extra week.

Click to expand...

I preferred S-04 to US-05 because of its high sedimentation . I thought that high sedimentation would lead to a Beer which is

clean and has less Off-taste .

I don't know what you mean by "mild Beer" , but the O.G. of my Batches is always about 1.050 .

After reading your reply , I decided to keep the Beer in the Primary for 7 days at about 64 F , then 3 days at 68 and then in the

Secondary for 2 Weeks and then to bottle it and keep it for at least 3 Weeks at 70 F .

Hope it will work fine .

Hector

I've had decent results with S04. Never any sourness, but I did get too much apple esters and cooked peas flavor on an ESB. Although, I did have nice strawberry jammy esters on a porter that I pitched S04 & S05 on a 50/50 ration, but it did finish high (1.019).

Overall, S04 has never ruined a beer, but I would prefer a different flavor profile.

GlenF said:

Overall, S04 has never ruined a beer, but I would prefer a different flavor profile.

Click to expand...

By me , on the contrary , S-04 has never made a good and drinkable Beer .

Would you please explain one of your recipes which turned out good by using this strain .

How long did you keep it in the Primary and at what Temp ?!

Did you transfer it to the Secondary or bottle it directly after the Primary ?!

Hector

had this happen with my oatmeal stout... thought it was infected (although no pellicle), kept it in primary an extra week (total of 4 weeks) hoping it would fade (which it did slightly)
now it's in bottles and i guess i'll just give it time

thanks for letting me know it wasn't something of my own doing (besides yeast choice, but i've switched to liquid yeast now anyway)

thetragichero said:

had this happen with my oatmeal stout... thought it was infected (although no pellicle), kept it in primary an extra week (total of 4 weeks) hoping it would fade (which it did slightly)
now it's in bottles and i guess i'll just give it time

Click to expand...

My Experience :

The longer you keep it in the bottle , the more sour aftertaste you will have .

I just brewed a small Extract batch using S-04 . It gave me 3 bottles ( 330 ml each ) .

I opened the first one after keeping at 70 F for 4 Weeks and it had the sour aftertaste .

Today , I opened the third one which was kept at 70 F for 6 Weeks and then for 1 Week in the Refrigerator .

It was totally UNDRINKABLE !

A SOURNESS BOMB !

Hector

I've had decent success with s-04. Haven't done too many batches though. I left it in the primary for at least 3 weeks though as many people have said that time allows for the yeast to clean up after itself. I think a longer primary is needed for s-04. Closer to a month, the better.

the trick with S-04 is to get the beer of the trub and cake fast. A week in the primary, even if your not at FG.

amandabab said:

the trick with S-04 is to get the beer of the trub and cake fast. A week in the primary, even if your not at FG.

Click to expand...

Aha...

So , you also believe that keeping the Beer in the Primary longer than one Week leads to the twangy , sour aftertaste .

But , what would you do then ?!

I mean , would you transfer it to the Secondary or bottle it ?!

Hector

hector said:

Aha...


I mean , would you transfer it to the Secondary or bottle it ?!

Hector

Click to expand...

secondary it.
S-04 breeds fast and has a quick bulk die-off and dormancy. it just wont "clean up after itself" there is just too much matter to clean. It does a great job just slowly plugging away in a secondary.

amandabab said:

secondary it.
S-04 breeds fast and has a quick bulk die-off and dormancy. it just wont "clean up after itself" there is just too much matter to clean. It does a great job just slowly plugging away in a secondary.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure where you got this idea. Sure, it's highly flocculant, so it will flocculate pretty readily. However, it's not true that you have to get it off the yeast and do a long secondary. As long as you pitch enough yeast and prevent any drastic drops in temperature, you should be able to easily get a clean beer from it, without a secondary after a week.

afr0byte said:

As long as you pitch enough yeast and prevent any drastic drops in temperature, you should be able to easily get a clean beer from it, without a secondary after a week.

Click to expand...

Do you mean that after a Week in the Primary , the Beer can be bottled ?

Aren't you afraid of bottle bombs ?!

Hector

hector said:

Do you mean that after a Week in the Primary , the Beer can be bottled ?

Aren't you afraid of bottle bombs ?!

Hector

Click to expand...

I wasn't saying that, no. I'm just saying it's not a good idea to transfer the beer off of the yeast before th FG is finished. However, I've had a mild that was at finishing gravity (1.010) after a few days, and I kegged it after a week.

afr0byte said:

However, I've had a mild that was at finishing gravity (1.010) after a few days, and I kegged it after a week.

Click to expand...

Aha , you didn't bottle it .

I don't keg my Beer , so I should be aware of bottle bombs .

I'm an Extract brewer and by my previous batches the fermentation was always stuck at about 1.020 .

So , next time I'm going to repitch some S-04 on the 5th day , as the fermentation slows down . Then I'll let it ferment for

some more days and transfer it to the Secondary .

Hector

Descriptions and reviews of Whitbread Dry mention the yogurt sourness as part of the flavor profile, not a flaw.

Has anyone done a side-by-side with S-04 and Whitbread Dry?

S-04 makes lousy dark beers for me, but a damn fine Premium English Ale based on the recipe for Otter Head (1.050 OG, 40 IBUs, 15 SRM). Hops balance the tart.

I recommend a modified Fuller's fermentation schedule. Primary in low 60's until FG reached (4-6 days), 2 day D-rest at 70, then cold-crash 1-2 days in primary and package immediately. I even dry hop in primary during the rest. My turnaround on this beer is 8-10 days, not counting carbonation.

I think S-04 descends into madness if it is allowed to sit around with nothing to do, unlike US-05, which is an excellent houseguest.

hector said:

Aha , you didn't bottle it .

I don't keg my Beer , so I should be aware of bottle bombs .

I'm an Extract brewer and by my previous batches the fermentation was always stuck at about 1.020 .

So , next time I'm going to repitch some S-04 on the 5th day , as the fermentation slows down . Then I'll let it ferment for

some more days and transfer it to the Secondary .

Hector

Click to expand...

Sure, I didn't have to worry about it because of the keg, but it's definitely possible to bottle a beer after a week. I'm not saying you should, especially if your beer is at 1.020, but it's possible. Your extract may just not be all that fermentable. Lots of people report getting stuck at 1.020 with extract.

Franc103 said:

S-04 makes lousy dark beers for me, but a damn fine Premium English Ale based on the recipe for Otter Head (1.050 OG, 40 IBUs, 15 SRM). Hops balance the tart.

Click to expand...

Huh, a lot of people (myself included) have used S-04 for dry stouts, and the beers come out great. What don't you like about your dark beers with S-04?

afr0byte said:

Your extract may just not be all that fermentable. Lots of people report getting stuck at 1.020 with extract.

Click to expand...

The DME which I use contains 64% Maltose .

There are many Threads here about "stuck fermentation at 1.020" and it has been discussed long enough .

There are always two suggestions :

1- Arousing the yeast cake

2- Repitching

Hector

hector said:

The DME which I use contains 64% Maltose .

There are many Threads here about "stuck fermentation at 1.020" and it has been discussed long enough .

There are always two suggestions :

1- Arousing the yeast cake

2- Repitching

Hector

Click to expand...

What are the recipes like? Also, what kind of temperatures are the beers exposed to while they're fermenting? Have they all been S-04?

afr0byte said:

Huh, a lot of people (myself included) have used S-04 for dry stouts, and the beers come out great. What don't you like about your dark beers with S-04?

Click to expand...

Well, I did temper my comment by stipulating it happens to "my" beers. YMMV.
Here are my two theories, completely untested:

1. I don't like the way the esters/tartness clash with the dark roasted grains. I also don't like chocolate covered raisins, yet I like both chocolate and raisins. I just don't care for the combo of dark malt and S-04.

2. Hops may suppress the tartness many posters describe. I like S-04 in beers with a strong bittering addition and a calculated IBU of 35+. Most of my stouts and porters are much lower on the IBUs to boost the richness of the malt. Again, YMMV based on taste and technique.

My dark beers had the tangy flavor...so much that I convinced myself that my equipment had a lacto infection. I switched back to S-05 for stouts and porters and the flavor went away.

Franc103 said:

Well, I did temper my comment by stipulating it happens to "my" beers. YMMV.
Here are my two theories, completely untested:

1. I don't like the way the esters/tartness clash with the dark roasted grains. I also don't like chocolate covered raisins, yet I like both chocolate and raisins. I just don't care for the combo of dark malt and S-04.

2. Hops may suppress the tartness many posters describe. I like S-04 in beers with a strong bittering addition and a calculated IBU of 35+. Most of my stouts and porters are much lower on the IBUs to boost the richness of the malt. Again, YMMV based on taste and technique.

My dark beers had the tangy flavor...so much that I convinced myself that my equipment had a lacto infection. I switched back to S-05 for stouts and porters and the flavor went away.

Click to expand...

Huh, I haven't used S-04 in a while...I'll have to see if I notice a tartness the next time I use it.

amandabab said:

secondary it.
S-04 breeds fast and has a quick bulk die-off and dormancy. it just wont "clean up after itself" there is just too much matter to clean. It does a great job just slowly plugging away in a secondary.

Click to expand...

Yes it will. The last beer I made with it did a fine job after being in the primary for 3 weeks. You are entering the realm of the secondary vs no secondary debate. Lots of people on this forum and people like Jamil and Palmer recommend you leave it in the primary longer unless you're dry hopping or doing extended aging. Maybe I haven't used s-04 enough, but I think you should leave that beer alone for 3-4 weeks and watch the funkiness fall out of that beer.