New 10 Gallon Herms! Pics!

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Yes, I see that. I'm just not familiar with all the disconnects and connections at the top of the HLT and MT.

You should submit this to BYO, if you haven't already...

BYO, you really think so? Hrmmm.

I can help you out with the connections at the top there, I have my order history from McMaster all saved.

QD's
6739K64 6 Each Hose Couplings For Coolant, Sleeve-lck Sckt X Barb, 3/8"cplg Sz,1/2"hose Id
6739K59 7 Each Hose Couplings For Coolant, Plug, 1/2" Nptf Male, 3/8" Coupling Size


FITTINGS TO ATTACH QDs TO HERMS COIL
50915K328 2 Each Standard Brass Compression Tube Fitting, Adapter For 1/2" Tube Od X 1/2" Nptf Male Pipe


TO ATTACH LOC LINE THROUGH LID OF MLT
5307K48 1 Pack 1/2" Npt Male Connector For 1/2" Id, Snap-loc Any-which-way Coolant Hose


LOC LINE FOR MLT RETURN
10095K45 2 Packs 1’ Of 1/2" Id, Loc-line Any-which-way Coolant Hose


NOZZLE FOR LOC LINE RETURN LINE
10095K25 1 Pack 1/2" Diameter Round Nozzle For 1/2" Id, Loc-line Any-which-way Coolant Hose


1 EA to affix QDs to HERMS coil and to the MLT LID for the LOC LINE RETURN LINE
50785K94 3 Each Med-pressure Extruded Brass Thrd Pipe Fitting, 1/2" Pipe Size, Hex Coupling, 1-3/16" Length
 
Thanks, that's helpful. Real simple question: How do you connect the heat exchange coil at the top? I have an immersion chiller (that I would keep as such as I think it is 3/8" and it's 50'), but that is bent at the top to accomodate hoses at a horizontal angle, not vertical. Did you cut the coil, and how did you connect that to the tubing?

I did cut this tubing, it was originally a "pre chiller" from B3, then I used the above listed compression and hex fittings to attach the QDs.
 
Here is my starter parts list. I am not going to guarantee it is correct, but this what I have so far. Anybody can take it and revise it also. I am also sure there are a few little parts that are left out. Also pol if you see anything wrong just let me know.

2x 10 rubbermaid coolers with valves (valves should have ½ “opening)

1x johnson controller (a419)

1x March heat resistant pump for food (needs valve or valves)

1x 25 foot 1/2" DIA copper tubing coil (with means to affix quick disconnects at ends)

1x Thermowell stopper or stopper with a crimped corny pickup tube. (for Johnson temp probe)

2x Solid stoppers with temp probes to read MLT temp and HLT temp

1x 120v 1500w water heater element (needs separate length of wire and plug to wire up) Also needs a means to insulate bottom wires. OP used JB weld. EXCELLENT DIELECTRIC PROPERTIES FOR EVEN 240VAC

1x SS nut (fits top side of heater element threads and pulls heater seal upwards to seal bottom.) (not sure where to get this yet) BARGAINFITINGS.COM


12 ft heat resistant tubing (1/2 ID)

6x stainless hose clamps

MC master parts (mcmaster.com)

6x #6739K59 High Flow Hose Coupling For Coolant, Plug, 1/2" Nptf Male, 3/8"

6 x Coupling Size#6739K64 High Flow Hose Coupling For Coolant, Sleeve-lck Sckt X
Barb, 3/8"cplg Sz,1/2"hose Id

1x 6142K49 Ac Gearmotor W/fan, Face Mnt, 100 Rpm, 7 In-lbs Torque, 115 Vac

1x 34935K66 Polypropylene Propeller With Shaft U-shaped Blade, 2-1/2" DIA.

1x 6099K22 Stainless Steel One-piece Set-screw Coupling 5/16" Bore, 1" Length, 5/8" Od, Without Keyway

1x 10095K12 Loc-Line Any-Which-Way Coolant Hose 1/2" ID, 24" Length W/ Connectors & Round Nozzles, this is (2) orders as they are 12" long


I updated it above....
 
I updated it above....

Ok added to list except one.

What is the part # for this one?

1 EA to affix QDs to HERMS coil and to the MLT LID for the LOC LINE RETURN LINE


Hey pol I noticed on mc master they had a 13 inch loc line with connectors and nozzle, Is this the same thing, but just under 1 part number?

1x 10095K12 Loc-Line Any-Which-Way Coolant Hose 1/2" ID, 13" Length W/ Connectors & Round Nozzles
 
Ok added to list except one.

What is the part # for this one?

1 EA to affix QDs to HERMS coil and to the MLT LID for the LOC LINE RETURN LINE


Hey pol I noticed on mc master they had a 13 inch loc line with connectors and nozzle, Is this the same thing, but just under 1 part number?

1x 10095K12 Loc-Line Any-Which-Way Coolant Hose 1/2" ID, 13" Length W/ Connectors & Round Nozzles

The part number is listed above.... 50785k94
It looks like the Loc Line you listed is what you want... but you want 2' of Loc Line
 
Another question for any experts out there. I'm getting ready to purchase my HERMS coil and want to get 50' 1/2" tubing (I think). The "refrigeration" grade tubing is WAY cheaper than type K or L but does not seem to be NSF rated for liquids (from what i can find). Is there any real difference btwn refrigeration grade and the others besides wall thickness? Any health concerns?

Pol, Do you think 50' of 1/2" for your coil is overkill or would 25' be plenty? Also did you get 1/2" OD or 1/2" ID (5/8" OD)?
 
Another question for any experts out there. I'm getting ready to purchase my HERMS coil and want to get 50' 1/2" tubing (I think). The "refrigeration" grade tubing is WAY cheaper than type K or L but does not seem to be NSF rated for liquids (from what i can find). Is there any real difference btwn refrigeration grade and the others besides wall thickness? Any health concerns?

Pol, Do you think 50' of 1/2" for your coil is overkill or would 25' be plenty? Also did you get 1/2" OD or 1/2" ID (5/8" OD)?

I am not Pol, but he has used 25ft copper pre chiller from B3. It would seem a waste to use 50ft IMO. He only has a few degree difference between the HLT and the MLT.
 
I'm not sure how much extra wort you would lose in the extra 25'.
I'd stick with 25.
Thanks. I misread his post. I shouldn't lose any wort though as the sparge water will get pumped through the coil during the sparge to clear out any wort.
 
25' will suffice. You need to remember that the more copper you pack into the HLT, the less water volume you have. So you are balancing some things here. 25' will suffice, 50' would be overkill, completely.

My tubing is 1/2" copper tubing, this generally refers to the OD of the tubing. Most tubing is sold by its nominal OD. As to the different grades of copper tubing... I dont know. I didnt know that there were different grades. I would definately make sure that whatever you do buy, it is OK for potable water.

If you have any further questions, let me know. Glad to help.
 
Thanks. I misread his post. I shouldn't lose any wort though as the sparge water will get pumped through the coil during the sparge to clear out any wort.

Precisely... pump the sparge water through the coils. You lose no wort that way, and it definately helps clean out the sticky stuff.
 
Heya Pol,

Fantastic work :rockin:. Well like so many others, i've decided to give this a go. The one question i have is, what is the model number of your A419??

IE. A419xxx-xx

and.... (guess i have another question) since your setup for 208-240v with your new E-keggle, any plans on updating you HLT to a 220v element for faster heating??
 
The A419 was purtchased from Northern Brewer... didnt know they had different models. Mine will switch 16A at 120VAC... that is all I know!

As for the larger element in the HLT... here is the ONE issue. How long are those 240VAC elements? How tall is the HLT? How much water will you always have to have in the HLT to keep it submerged?

You can get a nice short 120VAC 2000W element for the HLT, mine is 1500W, that would help heating slightly. Most 240VAC elements are going to run about 14" or more in length (height) in the HLT. This equates to 8 gallons of water MIN in the HLT at all times when the element is running.

Once you strike you will have to top up the HLT, if you have a 5500W element in the HLT you will get up to recirc temp again in about 3-4 minutes. Whereas with the 2000W element it would take 9-10 minutes.... during which time you would simply hold off on the recirc obviously.
I went with the 1500W element when I didnt dream of having 240VAC capability on my rig. I also never really cared about the initial heating time... as I spend this time prepping everything else anyway.

You CAN do it, but be SURE to turn off the element when you are striking (pumping to the MLT) or else you will smoke the element in the HLT... it will need a nearly full HLT to stay submerged. The 120VAC element is always under water in the HLT due to its short length.

I probably WONT upgrade the HLT to 240VAC since it works fine for me as is... I have the A419, which I cannot use on a 240VAC element. I have a control panel that WILL NOT accomodate another PID or SSR. Also, I would need another PID and SSR to control the HLT. The system currently works as I intended, I cant see buying another PID, SSR, and wiring a whole new control panel to accomodate the extra stuff.
 
Ya the A419 comes in a few variations. NB just happens to have the ones that fits most brewers needs. There is a 220v switching model available.

I see your point on the length of the heating element... It maybe the catalyst to me building a seperate heat exchanger but not to sure as of yet. I was thinking along the lines of a paint can sized exchanger and filled with non conductive oil which would hold heat better.... plus being safer. I know it seems like an extra piece of equipment... so again, i'm not sure.
 
Yeah, my A419 can switch 240VAC but at only like 10A, which is pretty worthless.

I went through many ideas before I settled on my rig. I literally drew up designs, calculated heating times and figured out procedures for each design for MONTHS before I built it.

There are people that build an external HERMS heater in order to more quickly do step mashes, but they are missing something I think. Here is why, and here is how the Brew Beast V2.0 handles it. I am brewing a Heffe here with a protien step mash, the typical step mash right?

Heat HLT to 145F... lose 15F heating MLT, strike with 130F and rest at 122F.

During the 20 minute 122F step, do not recirculate, there is no need.

During the 122F step, heat the HLT to 156F or whatever the appropriate alpha rest temp is.

When the 122F step is complete, start the pump and heat the mash to alpha rest temp (156F). You have 8 gallons of thermal mass in the HLT, plus your heater. In your external HEX you will have only 1-2 gallons of thermal mass, the element will run much more... maybe that doesnt matter really.

This is what you are doing with a smaller external HERMS HEX, except you arent recirculating during the 122F step, who cares though?
 
Ya the A419 comes in a few variations. NB just happens to have the ones that fits most brewers needs. There is a 220v switching model available.

I see your point on the length of the heating element... It maybe the catalyst to me building a seperate heat exchanger but not to sure as of yet. I was thinking along the lines of a paint can sized exchanger and filled with non conductive oil which would hold heat better.... plus being safer. I know it seems like an extra piece of equipment... so again, i'm not sure.

If you use a paint can, you are going to be limited again to a 120VAC element, still heating the same quantities of water in the end, what will you gain?
 
There is a certain magazine that is showing interest in my rig... I may get more recognition for brewing than I do flying, amazing. :D
 
If you use a paint can, you are going to be limited again to a 120VAC element, still heating the same quantities of water in the end, what will you gain?

Ya i thought about that too, so i was thinking about a seperate heat exchanger and going electric in my HLT too. I know my logic seems totally flawed and i'll more then likely just build your exact setup.

I'll just go with a 2000w 120v element (HD i think... Lowes has 1500w) No need to reinvent the wheel i guess.

Have you run the numbers on the cost of running your entire system on a typical brew session??

And gratz on the magazine.... you've done class A work and deserve all the kudos you get from your brewing peers.
 
It costs me about $1.22 per brew session out here at our current cost per KWh. When I was using strictly propane to heat the HLT and BK, I was using nearly $5 per session in gas. Not to mention overheating my garage in the summer if I wanted to stay in out of the sun, and breathing in CO in the winter if I wanted to brew.
Temp control within .5F.
Step mash without infusions.
No CO
Cheap
What does the Mc Ds commercial say? IM LOVIN IT!:ban:
 
Ya i thought about that too, so i was thinking about a seperate heat exchanger and going electric in my HLT too. I know my logic seems totally flawed and i'll more then likely just build your exact setup.

I'll just go with a 2000w 120v element (HD i think... Lowes has 1500w) No need to reinvent the wheel i guess.

Have you run the numbers on the cost of running your entire system on a typical brew session??

And gratz on the magazine.... you've done class A work and deserve all the kudos you get from your brewing peers.

Any design that fits your parameters is by definition not flawed... just thought I would ask. I originally thought about building an external HEX with a 3 gallon cooler as well. Then I realized that I was able to accomplish the same thing without it, and without running another element and temp controller.

You can adjust the temp of the HEX faster, but in the end you are still heating the same ammount of mash water, so with a couple techniques, I was able to work around the slower response time of the HLT HEX.

I think an external HEX separate from the HLT would look sweet, and would work well, but it never fit my design philosophy of simple, affordable, reliable and repeatable. It was simply extra... in my case.
 
I'll just go with a 2000w 120v element (HD i think... Lowes has 1500w) No need to reinvent the wheel i guess.

Even though HD's website says 2KW 120V elements SHOULD be available in the store, I couldn't find them anywhere. Ace Hardware stocked 'em tho - just in case you run into the same problem.
 
Yeah, Lowes and HD have horrible websites. They do not list much of what they DO carry, and list many things that they DONT carry in your local store. Sort of a crap shoot.
 
The LocLine for the MLT return line???

It is on page... 14 or sumthin, here it is.

LOC LINE FOR MLT RETURN
10095K45 2 Packs 1’ Of 1/2" Id, Loc-line Any-which-way Coolant Hose

NOZZLE FOR LOC LINE RETURN LINE
10095K25 1 Pack 1/2" Diameter Round Nozzle For 1/2" Id, Loc-line Any-which-way Coolant Hose
 
Just curious... I know that your heating element is through the bottom, but could one mount one from the side, rather near the bottom? Would seem you could possible use a longer element, which may help if the rest of the system will be 220v as mine will be ( pump I bought is 220v)
 
Just curious... I know that your heating element is through the bottom, but could one mount one from the side, rather near the bottom? Would seem you could possible use a longer element, which may help if the rest of the system will be 220v as mine will be ( pump I bought is 220v)

The diameter of the cooler would only really allow an 11" long element. If you can find a 240VAC element that is that short, Id say go for it. http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html I am not sure how it will seal, I have never seen it done.
 
Well.... i'm running 16.25 amps with a 120v 2000w element. The A419 should do the trick... usually, manufactures will drop specs on the low end for public safety. I'm sure it could switch 17 amps with no problems.
 
Yeah, I know a guy that bought a knockoff of the JC A419, that would only switch like 10A at 120VAC... or so it said. He called JC, they said they actually manufactured the controller for another company and it was derated because the power cord was a lighter AWG... so, I am sure the controller can handle the 2000W element without a problem.
 
Minor question: You mention 1/2" spigot for the cooler, I have one now and don't remember the size of the spigot, it looks the same as yours and I did get it at HD a while ago. Do sizes of spigots they differ? I have a 3/8" valve now for my infusion mash, will this accomodate a 1/2" upgrade?

Also, if I understand your process, you recirculate continuously. Do you think that works better for efficiency than an infusion mash that allows grains to be stirred periodically (to ensure each grain is sufficiently exposed to water). Of course, I would see recirculating during the mash out, which I would think would clarify the wort nicely. Probably a pretty basic HERMS question...

Congratulations on the magazine interest, I'm not surprised. Your design looks fairly simple, yet provides a lot of control. (Plus, I may be able to upgrade my existing simple equipment without replacing everything, pending the answer to the first question above.)
 
I do have all 1/2" plumbing on my system. In the past, I had some 3/8" components and I can say that the difference in flow rates is phenominal. I'd never go back. When deciding to construct a HERMS where there is a lot of pumping and fluid flow, I wanted to be sure to make that flow as unrestricted as possible. I have 1/2" ball valves, HERMS coil, hoses, QDs... and like I said, my flows are double that of my old 3/8" setup.

Ball valve sizes do differ greatly, there are many sizes. Any beverage cooler CAN accomodate 1/2" components, but the bulkhead will have to be rebuilt to accomodate the larger size.

I dont understand the question about your "infusion mash spigot upgrade"...

I do recirculate continuously. The grains are stirred well when I strike, any dough balls are thoroughly broken up. I dont think that the recirculation affects the efficiency at all... if anything it keeps water circulating through the mash, it keeps currents flowing, creating a more homogenous mash which I see as beneficial.

I do recirculate constantly... HERMS works best that way. I am able to hold my mash temps within .5F during any lenghth of mash, in any weather. I also do not have to worry about stirring the mash to keep the temps homogenous. I do not have to worry about slightly undershooting or overshooting my strike temp. I start the pump, I walk away... 60 minutes later I return and the mash is complete and still within .5F of my set point. The point of a HERMS and of my system is consistency and ease of use. After 30 minutes the wort is just as clear as BMC is in the bottle...

Repeatability, reliability (why I built my own bulkheads and cooler thermometers), ease of use and affordability were all major components in my build. I spent months planning, and tossed about 5 different ideas for a HERMS build before settling on this one. It works for me, and a couple others who are RUNNING it with my HERMS software... a few more are in the building stages. Your needs may be different, and that is ok... I hope I can help in any case.

I have been trading emails and pictures with the magazine about once a day for the past several days... the editor sayes she will be getting back to me soon? Hopefully that is a good sign. Id frame that issue.
 
Here is the email I sent to them when they asked for more pics and a more detailed description. Hopefully it holds thier interest.

XXXXX,

Thank you (and your magazine) for your interest in my rig! It has been an ongoing evolution from a simple 5 gallon Rubbermaid AG system that I used in my kitchen, with water heated on the stove... to an all electric HERMS that utilizes 10 gallon Rubbermaid coolers and a 15.5 gallon Sankey for the BK.
Here is a brief description of the major components:

HLT: 10 Gallon Rubbermaid beverage cooler converted to HERMS HEX with a 1/2" ball valve bulkhead (custom as many commercial models leak). It consists of a 1500W 120VAC heating element that is controlled by a Johnson A419 controller that is mounted to the cooler itself. I fashioned my own stopper/thermo well that passes through the lid and sourced parts for a 120VAC HLT stirrer. The HLT HEX contains 25' of 1/2" copper tubing (a modified pre-chiller) that is outfitted with brass QDs. It also sports a custom through the wall digital thermometer (my solution to leaky commercial models). ALL plumbing on my rig is 1/2", the flow rates are far superior to 3/8" plumbing. This vessel is used for strike water, sparge water, HERMS re circulation to hold mash temps and used to heat the mash to mashout temps.

MLT: 10 Gallon Rubbermaid beverage cooler converted to a MLT with a 1/2" ball valve bulkhead (custom), SS false bottom, through the wall digital thermometer (custom) and a HERMS/FLY sparge return line that is plumbed through the lid for superior heat retention. Mash temps are maintained within .5F during any length of mash.

BK: 15.5 gallon (legal) Sankey keg that has been converted to an E-Keggle. It is outfitted with a 1/2" ball valve, custom pick-up tube, 5500W ULWD heating element and thermocouple.

Software: This rig, as in any rig, has specific temperature differentials, fluid loss, heating times etc. In order to manage all of these aspects I created a spreadsheet that asks the brewer for specific information about the brew. Strike temps, volumes etc. are entered and crucial values are computed for the brewer to manage the system during the brew session. This allows the brewer to effectively plan HLT water quantities, temps and view resultant heating times that may be of concern when step mashing.

All of the components are powered through a custom 240VAC control panel that I built. It consists of a PID and SSR for the E-Keggle heating control. It also contains switched outlets for the HLT and March 809 pump on my rig. It also contains a "kill" switch that will kill both legs of power to the E-Keggle heating element regardless of what the PID and SSR command.

The E-Keggle heating element is my own design, with a fully insulated collar and entirely potted electrical connections, making it safe for use on a boil kettle where boil overs can happen. It can be submerged in water with no voltage leak.

All liquid connections are made with brass QDs.

My design philosophy all along has been simplicity, efficiency, affordability and repeatability. I have built my own bulkheads and through the wall thermometers for affordability and reliability reasons. When possible I have sourced components to build items needed for this rig in lieu of purchasing commercial components when cost and design allowed.

I am a member of Homebrewtalk.com and have posted loads of information about my build over the past couple years as it evolved. (instructions, part numbers, suppliers, design philosophy, cost etc) Currently there are several other members building exact replicas of my system, one is actually brewing on it already. I have been tech support for these guys and provided them with the software to run this rig effectively in their own garages.

I will attach some photos, AND a link to my Photobucket account where you can see many more pictures. Please let me know if you have continued interest and if there is anything else you would like!
 
I dont understand the question about your "infusion mash spigot upgrade"...

I think you answered it, I can replace my existing 3/8" with a 1/2" setup--this will fit my existing 10 gallon cooler without having to drill a bigger hole which I don't want to do. I assume I'll have to also replace the elbow barb on my newly purchased false bottom to 1/2" also...
 
Here is the email I sent to them when they asked for more pics and a more detailed description. Hopefully it holds thier interest.

XXXXX,

Thank you (and your magazine) for your interest in my rig! It has been an ongoing evolution from a simple 5 gallon Rubbermaid AG system that I used in my kitchen, with water heated on the stove... to an all electric HERMS that utilizes 10 gallon Rubbermaid coolers and a 15.5 gallon Sankey for the BK.
Here is a brief description of the major components:

HLT: 10 Gallon Rubbermaid beverage cooler converted to HERMS HEX with a 1/2" ball valve bulkhead (custom as many commercial models leak). It consists of a 1500W 120VAC heating element that is controlled by a Johnson A419 controller that is mounted to the cooler itself. I fashioned my own stopper/thermo well that passes through the lid and sourced parts for a 120VAC HLT stirrer. The HLT HEX contains 25' of 1/2" copper tubing (a modified pre-chiller) that is outfitted with brass QDs. It also sports a custom through the wall digital thermometer (my solution to leaky commercial models). ALL plumbing on my rig is 1/2", the flow rates are far superior to 3/8" plumbing. This vessel is used for strike water, sparge water, HERMS re circulation to hold mash temps and used to heat the mash to mashout temps.

MLT: 10 Gallon Rubbermaid beverage cooler converted to a MLT with a 1/2" ball valve bulkhead (custom), SS false bottom, through the wall digital thermometer (custom) and a HERMS/FLY sparge return line that is plumbed through the lid for superior heat retention. Mash temps are maintained within .5F during any length of mash.

BK: 15.5 gallon (legal) Sankey keg that has been converted to an E-Keggle. It is outfitted with a 1/2" ball valve, custom pick-up tube, 5500W ULWD heating element and thermocouple.

Software: This rig, as in any rig, has specific temperature differentials, fluid loss, heating times etc. In order to manage all of these aspects I created a spreadsheet that asks the brewer for specific information about the brew. Strike temps, volumes etc. are entered and crucial values are computed for the brewer to manage the system during the brew session. This allows the brewer to effectively plan HLT water quantities, temps and view resultant heating times that may be of concern when step mashing.

All of the components are powered through a custom 240VAC control panel that I built. It consists of a PID and SSR for the E-Keggle heating control. It also contains switched outlets for the HLT and March 809 pump on my rig. It also contains a "kill" switch that will kill both legs of power to the E-Keggle heating element regardless of what the PID and SSR command.

The E-Keggle heating element is my own design, with a fully insulated collar and entirely potted electrical connections, making it safe for use on a boil kettle where boil overs can happen. It can be submerged in water with no voltage leak.

All liquid connections are made with brass QDs.

My design philosophy all along has been simplicity, efficiency, affordability and repeatability. I have built my own bulkheads and through the wall thermometers for affordability and reliability reasons. When possible I have sourced components to build items needed for this rig in lieu of purchasing commercial components when cost and design allowed.

I am a member of Homebrewtalk.com and have posted loads of information about my build over the past couple years as it evolved. (instructions, part numbers, suppliers, design philosophy, cost etc) Currently there are several other members building exact replicas of my system, one is actually brewing on it already. I have been tech support for these guys and provided them with the software to run this rig effectively in their own garages.

I will attach some photos, AND a link to my Photobucket account where you can see many more pictures. Please let me know if you have continued interest and if there is anything else you would like!

All this.... and he still needs help programming the VCR ;) (yes i understand it's an old reference)
 
My 10 gallon cooler is Igloo, not Rubbermaid. May not accomodate 1/2" valve without modification. Anyone successful with the Igloo? (I followed another set of instructions for my brass 3/8" valve set up for simple infusion mash, recently upgrading it with a false bottom).
 
The Igloo should be able to accomodate a 1/2" pipe nipple as well.
 
Back
Top