Bottle Conditioning

Is it possible to use different yeast for priming than the yeast conditioning? By possible I mean will it affect the taste.
I have a belgian triple wl500 and I wanted to use some dry yeast to prime them. I dont want to have to make a liquid starter again.

Because, its such a small amount of yeast to re-add to prime, you wont taste any difference. There are several commercial breweries that use a different strain to bottle condition

You don't need to add any yeast at bottling for most beers.

The only reason you hear about some belgian breweries doing that is to hide the primary strain from harvesters like us and other breweries. But in order to do that they first kill off or filter out the primary strain.

Revvy said:

You don't need to add any yeast at bottling for most beers.

The only reason you hear about some belgian breweries doing that is to hide the primary strain from harvesters like us and other breweries. But in order to do that they first kill off or filter out the primary strain.

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So wait. Does this mean the second strain is doing the priming and conditioning?
Are they using dry or liquid yeast?

Cold_Steel said:

So wait. Does this mean the second strain is doing the priming and conditioning?
Are they using dry or liquid yeast?

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Yes the second strain is doing the the priming and conditioning...and I have no idea if it's dry or liquid. It may be liquid, it may be a neutal ale yeast or even a champagne strain for all we know. It's sorta kinda part of the secret.

It's quite common for breweries to sterile filter the primary strain, then add a different (or, in case of Sierra Nevada, the primary strain) yeast for bottle-conditioning. I can think of several UK breweries that bottle-condition ales using a lager yeast.

Unless the beer in question is of a very high gravity, the primary strain will be sufficiently healthy to carbonate and condition.

flyangler18 said:

It's quite common for breweries to sterile filter the primary strain, then add a different (or, in case of Sierra Nevada, the primary strain) yeast for bottle-conditioning. I can think of several UK breweries that bottle-condition ales using a lager yeast.

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True, but since he was talking about a Belgian beer he was doing it because he heard about belgain breweries doing it.

Unless the beer in question is of a very high gravity, the primary strain will be sufficiently healthy to carbonate and condition.

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True, though my 1.090 Belgian Strong carbed without adding any more...of course it did take about 3 months.

Revvy said:

Yes the second strain is doing the the priming and conditioning...and I have no idea if it's dry or liquid. It may be liquid, it may be a neutal ale yeast or even a champagne strain for all we know. It's sorta kinda part of the secret.

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I knew it! Champagne yeast. I had posted a thread about priming with a champagne yeast because I had read it here before. The post also said the champagne yeast will produce a smaller bubble as well.
Everyone acted like I was crazy because I said champagne yeast.

Ok so what would you do. Belgian triple final gravity 1.010 from og 1.072. Bulk aged in concial fermenter for 3 months with wl500. Corn sugar and ???? dry yeast, liquid, champagne, lager, wl500 starter....what

Don't jump on the champagne yeast thing...I said PERHAPS....that doesn't mean I said for sure.

And as to what I would do...personally I never have added more yeast at bottling...like I said above I did a 1.090 as is, and let it carb for as long as it needed....it still needed another 6 months to condition.

Revvy said:

Don't jump on the champagne yest thing...I said PERHAPS....that doesn't mean I said for sure.

And as to what I would...personally I never have added more yeast at bottling...like I said above I did a 1.090 as is, and let it carb for as long as it needed....it still needed another 6 months to condition.

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Revy how does the yeast condition the beer properly under all that priming pressure? You would think it would be a problem for the yeast doing the conditioning right?

All I know I wrote in here;

Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning.

Cold_Steel said:

Ok so what would you do. Belgian triple final gravity 1.010 from og 1.072. Bulk aged in concial fermenter for 3 months with wl500. Corn sugar and ???? dry yeast, liquid, champagne, lager, wl500 starter....what

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I see no reason to add fresh yeast. Prepare your priming sugar as usual, bottle and cap (or, even better, cork and cage in 750 ml). As you are enamored of Belgian beers, you may want to emulate a typical Belgian technique of warm-conditioning, around 80°.

I don't think there is enough pressure to serious hurt the yeast when bottle conditioning. In the pressure fermentation thread they say that the yeast can tolerate roughly 13 psi of pressure, maybe higher. The biggest concern would be rapid pressure changes. For bottle conditioning the yeasties don't have to do a lot of work, so there shouldn't be any off-flavors.

In the bottle, I wouldn't expect the pressures to get much higher than 10-13 psi. 13 psi in the headspace chilled to serving temps would put you close to the middle of the road 2.5 volumes of C02.

That's based on the carbonation tables for force carbing but the physical principles should be the same for a crude estimate of the pressure.

flyangler18 said:

I see no reason to add fresh yeast. Prepare your priming sugar as usual, bottle and cap (or, even better, cork and cage in 750 ml). As you are enamored of Belgian beers, you may want to emulate a typical Belgian technique of warm-conditioning, around 80°.

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You dont think the yeast are going to be wooped after 3-4 months of fermenation? I read an article and it said it was like asking 80 year old men to build a house. It can be done but wouldnt you want 20 year olds?
I had my fermenting room set for 70 degrees for 1 month of priming. Would 80 be to high? If its not does it shorten the time?

Cold_Steel said:

Ok so what would you do. Belgian triple final gravity 1.010 from og 1.072. Bulk aged in concial fermenter for 3 months with wl500. Corn sugar and ???? dry yeast, liquid, champagne, lager, wl500 starter....what

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5gal? correct?

I would use 5.25oz(sugar) along with 6grams of Nottingham yeast and warm condition @75-78F for 3wks.

Sample a bottle at that time to test the carbonation, if fully carbed throw the bottles into the fridge if you want or store them at a cooler temp till your ready to serve.

I think it is ideal to use fresh yeast IF you can remove the existing yeast (via filtration or centrifuge, fining won't remove nearly all of it) and accurately dose it. Its a better process and essentially all bottle conditioning commercial breweries use it (whether or not they use a separate strain).

The bottling strain should be chosen on the basis of the qualities desired of a bottle yeast. A flocculant lager strain is most common. Belgian brewers would use an ale strain likely since they condition so warm.

Houblon said:

5gal? correct?

I would use 5.25oz(sugar) along with 6grams of Nottingham yeast and warm condition @75-78F for 3wks.

Sample a bottle at that time to test the carbonation, if fully carbed throw the bottles into the fridge if you want or store them at a cooler temp till your ready to serve.

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no 80 gallons. Why would you use a nottingham yeast?

remilard said:

I think it is ideal to use fresh yeast IF you can remove the existing yeast (via filtration or centrifuge, fining won't remove nearly all of it) and accurately dose it. Its a better process and essentially all bottle conditioning commercial breweries use it (whether or not they use a separate strain).

The bottling strain should be chosen on the basis of the qualities desired of a bottle yeast. A flocculant lager strain is most common. Belgian brewers would use an ale strain likely since they condition so warm.

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I do not have away filtering. I have a dump valve to remove the trub.

Which yeast would you use for a Belgian and why.

Cold_Steel said:

I do not have away filtering. I have a dump valve to remove the trub.

Which yeast would you use for a Belgian and why.

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Well I would not add yeast unless I could remove all of the primary yeast.

I would use a flocculant belgian strain otherwise since you want alcohol and heat tolerance for the belgian bottle conditioning, plus good flocculation so the beer can be poured clear.

Okay after thinking about this overnight I have to ask, your doing 80gal batchs and are asking a rather basic question? yes?


Why I use Nottingham when I bottle is simple, it works & drops crystal clear and is cheap.

Don't bother using champagne yeast till you get far more experince, getting small bubbles should be the least of your worries.


Sorry if this comes across as harsh but doing 80gal batchs your risking losing alot of beer & money if you make the smallest mistake.

80gal. = 16 5gal. batchs...

Revvy said:

You don't need to add any yeast at bottling for most beers.

The only reason you hear about some belgian breweries doing that is to hide the primary strain from harvesters like us and other breweries. But in order to do that they first kill off or filter out the primary strain.

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From Brew Like a Monk

Chapter Nine: Bottling

Among Trappists and other breweries that practice refermentation in the bottle, what Westmalle does is fairly standard. Workers centrifuge much of the dead yeast from the wort before bottling begins, then dose it with sugar and fresh yeast before bottling.

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As Thiel eloquently described earlier, conditioning takes place in a harsh environment. The yeast left in your beer has already been through a war. It isn't necessary to use the same yeast as in primary. Trappists do that because they always have it ready

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Chapter Eleven: Recipes: What works

Bottle-condition, re-yeast when bottle conditioning, and condition to high levels of CO2 in a warm room.

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So, no real indication from Hieronymus that Belgian brewers are pitching fresh yeast at bottling time to hide the original strain. I'm not saying that never happens, but it doesn't seem to be the general practice. There are also some notes about pitching strains at bottling time that work better at lower temperatures (like a lager strain) if you don't have a warm room for conditioning.

I brew nothing but Belgians and I've had inconsistent results relying on the yeast left after fermentation for carbonation. The majority were fine but I had too many flat batches (even after 3-6 months of waiting for them to condition).

Currently my practice is to bottle with a dose of Nottingham. It has a forgiving temperature range and flocculates nicely. I just make a 500 mL starter, let it settle, decant 200 mL, pitch 100 mL in the bottling bucket and save the remaining 200 mL in two jelly jars to make future starters. It's easy, cheap and I don't have to wonder whether or not it will carb up or how long it will take. 2-3 weeks and it's done. Period.

Most of Belgian brewers re-yeast with primary yeast- its fresh, on hand and more important is many are too small to invest in keeping a expensive yeast bank.
-
http://bloggen.be/belgische_brouwerijen/








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Ok so I have decided to use sab-33 for the yeast.

Revvy said:

True, though my 1.090 Belgian Strong carbed without adding any more...of course it did take about 3 months.

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and yet you think thats normal and okay?
sorry but thats a great example as why you should re-yeast a high gravity beer.
3 months.......

Alrighty then. I might as well drive this thread right into the ground. Anyways. I just want to make sure I am doing everything right. I have Safbrew-33 in dry yeast form in 11.5 gram packaging. I bought 2lbs of priming sugar.

How many gallons should I use for 11.5 grams of Safbrew 33 yeast and how much priming sugar (corn) should I use?

I use 6g notty for 5gal.

Houblon said:

I use 6g notty for 5gal.

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so is it fair to say 6g. of safbrew 33 will be the same?

Houblon said:

and yet you think thats normal and okay?
sorry but thats a great example as why you should re-yeast a high gravity beer.
3 months.......

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Yeah I do think it's normal.....And it wouldn't have mattered if it was carbed up in two days let alone 3 months, it still needed another 6 months to condition and lose the hot rocket fuel/alcohol taste, to become drinkable.

Big beers need big time. I' had a lot of other beers to drink in the meantime. That's what a pipeline's for.

Lazy Llama came up with a handy dandy chart to determine how long something takes in brewing, whether it's fermentation, carbonation, bottle conditioning....

Revvy said:

Yeah I do think it's normal.....And it wouldn't have mattered if it was carbed up in two days let alone 3 months, it still needed another 6 months to condition and lose the hot rocket fuel/alcohol taste, to become drinkable.

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Sorry to hear you brew rocket fuel, ever think maybe your doing something wrong?

Houblon said:

Sorry to hear you brew rocket fuel, ever think maybe your doing something wrong?

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Nothing wrong with making a belgian ale with an OG of 1.090 with lots of candi sugar. Just needed time.....Making great beer is not a race. That's the point of bottles conditioning. And having a pipeline.

Barleywines, Tripels, Dubbles, things like that all need time to mellow.

EPIC FAIL....
Story...brewed 80 gallons..after 3months bottled 5 gallons without adding yeast...Perfect results.
Wanted to make sure no beers would open without proper carb. Used different strain of yeast Safbrew S-33 for bottle condidtioning= TOTAL DESTRUCTION. Its ranchy. I lost 65 gallons.
I cant even drink the crap. Plus when I opened it no carb. It was 100% flat.

Sorry about that. Like I said, I've never had an issue, even with bigbeers, of not having them carb up fine, eventually.

Its not even the carb that I think is the issue as much as the taste. the flavor is SO diferent.
I am not upset with anyone here by any means. I am just reporting my results. All information is import the good the bad and the ugly.
It has had almost 2 months of bottle condition so there should be some bubbles.
I wonder what went wrong. My first thought is the YEAST.
It has to be the Safebrew 33. It is a belgian yeast. I think that was the problem.
I would love some theories?

Cold_Steel said:

Its not even the carb that I think is the issue as much as the taste. the flavor is SO diferent.
I am not upset with anyone here by any means. I am just reporting my results. All information is import the good the bad and the ugly.
It has had almost 2 months of bottle condition so there should be some bubbles.
I wonder what went wrong. My first thought is the YEAST.
It has to be the Safebrew 33. It is a belgian yeast. I think that was the problem.
I would love some theories?

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I think if the yeast actually did anything, you'd have carbonation.

EvilGnome6 said:

I think if the yeast actually did anything, you'd have carbonation.

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thats a good point...
Actually thats a really good point. Was the yeast strong enough to do what I was asking it to do? The beer has a alc 8%. Can Safbrew S 33 tolerate that much alc?

Why did this not carb?
5oz of priming sugar.
Safbrew S-33
No carb?

Folks,
Here's a question for you all. I am brewing a belgian beer and want to bottle condition using a nuetral ale yeast like CA Ale yeast. I want to kill off all the belgian strain once primary is done and have been thinking about using pottassium metabisulfate to do so but wonder if I will be bale to bottle condition my beer afterwards? I don't have a keg or kegging supplies.

So, do you think I'll be able to bottle condition after using pottasium metabisulfate, or even sodium metabisulfate?

Thanks
J

jbay76 said:

Folks,
Here's a question for you all. I am brewing a belgian beer and want to bottle condition using a nuetral ale yeast like CA Ale yeast. I want to kill off all the belgian strain once primary is done and have been thinking about using pottassium metabisulfate to do so but wonder if I will be bale to bottle condition my beer afterwards? I don't have a keg or kegging supplies.

So, do you think I'll be able to bottle condition after using pottasium metabisulfate, or even sodium metabisulfate?

Thanks
J

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Why do you want to kill off the existing strain? Are you trying to hide it from other folks harvesting it? That's the main reason the Belgians do it....most folks who add fresh yeast on here just add it without killing off the primary strain...the more living yeast you have, the better your chances of getting good carb.

I would assume k-meta would work, but then you've just sulfited your beer. And I can't see a reason for adding more chemicals to our beer.

Revvy,
I want to kill off the original yeast strain because I have noticed that if the beer ages too long, the original yeast strain will change the flavor of the beer if its bottle conditioned. I have enough from this batch to keep me happy through most of summer, but I don't want the flavor profile to change like a previous years batch did. So, I theorized that by removing all yeast after primary and adding a neutral yeast strain, I can reduce/eliminate the possibility of drinking a saison 3 2 months down the road and drinking a totally different beer from when I first cracked into one. Incidentally, I do not have a problem with naturally carbonating my beers. I learned from my mistakes in the early days of home brewing.

jbay76 said:

Revvy,
I want to kill off the original yeast strain because I have noticed that if the beer ages too long, the original yeast strain will change the flavor of the beer if its bottle conditioned. I have enough from this batch to keep me happy through most of summer, but I don't want the flavor profile to change like a previous years batch did. So, I theorized that by removing all yeast after primary and adding a neutral yeast strain, I can reduce/eliminate the possibility of drinking a saison 3 2 months down the road and drinking a totally different beer from when I first cracked into one. Incidentally, I do not have a problem with naturally carbonating my beers. I learned from my mistakes in the early days of home brewing.

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Why add a chemical thou? Everyone on here has murder yeast several ways:cross: How about raising the temp or lowering? It wont affect the taste because the yeast would dead.