How to build a control panel (part 1)

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jeffmeh said:
It's tough to tell for the back plate, as I am uncertain of the component measurements (my apologies if I missed that on your site).
Click to expand...
Nope! You missed nothing. ;) I don't have measurements of the devices. The 8" deep panel I recommend works well as you don't need to really worry much about placement of the items on the panel versus the backplate. The actual depth with the backpanel installed is reduced of course.

I don't have my panel handy (it's packed away as we're moving in 2 weeks) so I can't measure. Maybe someone else can?

Kal
 
kal said:
Nope! You missed nothing. ;) I don't have measurements of the devices. The 8" deep panel I recommend works well as you don't need to really worry much about placement of the items on the panel versus the backplate. The actual depth with the backpanel installed is reduced of course.

I don't have my panel handy (it's packed away as we're moving in 2 weeks) so I can't measure. Maybe someone else can?

Kal
Click to expand...

Well, you are so thorough I thought I might have missed it. Good luck with the move.

I might consider the tool box build. The enclosure style you use looks great, but I do not necessarily want to mount on the wall. I would love to go with plastic to simplify the fabrication, but I cannot find anything with an 8" depth at a reasonable price except for the tool boxes. It is difficult to know whether a particular plastic tool box would work well without seeing it in person, given the structural ridges and grooves.

A metal one that looks pretty promising is the Homak 20" Flat Top. It's the same manufacturer as the hip-roofed one dflipse used, but it is a bit bigger and flat-topped.

I would lay out the controls something like this:

Control_Panel_20x8_5.jpg
 
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Stupid Kal, I was perfectly content with my set-up until I started looking at electric brewing and your instructions with links to all the parts needed made it too easy to switch... Thanks for such a great write up
 
yes thank you very much for a great write up... i am planning a build similar, but now i have to have more features! Mine will likely be hardwired with a 100A circit, and the ability to run both kettles at the same time (2 elements per pot)... slightly larger volume. Now i just have to refigure out my wiring diagram to factor in some aditional features. I also plan on seperate breakers within the box so I can have aditional protection for each burner and controllers. Its likely to be a big build!
 
Update:

Detailed "Brew Day: Step by Step" instructions are (finally) now available that explain how to actually use the control panel.

See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

Like everything else this took considerably longer than anticipated! 40-50 short videos were also cut & edited into half a dozen that show parts of the process. These are included in the step by step instructions.

Hope it helps!

Kal
 
So I was wondering, has anyone tried (or thought of) using Kals control pannel to power a 5500w 220v heat stick? I am in process of purchasing a couple of the 55 gallon boilermakers and have been thinking about doing a combined gas eleric system. I'm not very keen on puting more holes into a $600+ kettle. I figured a heat stick with a temp probe and I would have a nice device that I could swap between HLT and boil kettle.

I would basically be making a compacted version of his control panel no pumps, or extra lights and switches, this would make for a fairly inexpensive project (atleast compared to KAl full on brewery). Anythoughs or comments?
 
JoshuaWhite5522 said:
So I was wondering, has anyone tried (or thought of) using Kals control pannel to power a 5500w 220v heat stick?
Click to expand...
That would work. The only difference here is how the element is physically mounted. In my setup I have a 5500W permanently mounted to the kettle. With a heat stick it would be portable. Really no difference in what you'd do with the control panel.

Having locking plugs/receptacles on the control panel and element cord becomes more important with a heat stick (IMHO) since there's more chance of it moving. You don't want the chance of it coming out.

That said, if the only reason you're thinking of using a heat stick is because you're afraid of making a hole in the kettle, I'd say make the hole in the kettle.

Using heat sticks scare me more than putting a hole in the kettle. All that power that isn't affixed to the kettle. Scary (IMHO). I was in the same boat and thought long and hard about how to make a safe heat stick. In the end, making the hole is dead simple and if you use punches as I show and explain, you can't mess up.

... have been thinking about doing a combined gas eleric system.
Click to expand...
You mentioned in a PM that you were thinking of heating with gas and then maintaining with electric. Why? That'll cost you twice as much (gas + electric), result in more 'parts' with a more complex setup. Go all electric. It'll heat just as fast if not faster most likely.

I'm not very keen on puting more holes into a $600+ kettle. I figured a heat stick with a temp probe and I would have a nice device that I could swap between HLT and boil kettle.
Click to expand...
I think the cost of making one correctly made portable heat stick would be about the same or more as putting two separate heating elements in the boil kettle/HLT. You'd save a PID/SSR/outlet/etc in the control panel however. There would be some savings there.

The boil kettle and HLT have different things in them too space wise so the heat stick would have work for both which may prove difficult.

Kal
 
All good points Kal, and thank you for the input.


I might not have been clear in the PM. I would heat with both gas and eletric, then maintain with just eletric. I am assuming here that one 5500w element is enought to maintain a boil in the 55 gal kettle. I already have the gas burners so the only cost would be in operating, guess I just figured that it would be a slight savings over staying with gas. Plus from what I seen from the posts of others it would take 2 5500w elements for the 55gal boilmakers.

I'm just wondering on your comment about the power of the heatstick scaring you, and this shows my lack of electrical knowledge. If the heat stick is grounded and has a GFI what makes it less safe than the kettle? I understand that you ground the elements to the outlet box in your setup is that where the difference lies?

I'm not running a HERMs system so I would assume space in the HLT wouldn't be an issue, the same for the BK which I'm only planning for a hopstopper or a false bottom. I could be wrong here, what do the experts say?

You said you thought long and hard about how to make a safe heat stick? Did you ever come to a conclusion on how it could be done, or was the lack of a safe method what prompted you to go the route you did?

Thanks for the help.
 
a heat stick can always leak and from what i read when it does, a safely made one needs to be tossed and a new one made from scratch so longevity wise it might be better to just mount it. As far a gas and electric you will need to be extra careful has the gas will heat the surrounding air which will make contact with the element and could possibly melt several parts.
 
ekjohns said:
a heat stick can always leak and from what i read when it does, a safely made one needs to be tossed and a new one made from scratch so longevity wise it might be better to just mount it. As far a gas and electric you will need to be extra careful has the gas will heat the surrounding air which will make contact with the element and could possibly melt several parts.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm I had though of that, I figured that there would be an advantage of a heat stick since the wires would be up at the top of the kettle and they could be routed up and away from the heat of the burners under the kettle.

Leaking is an issue I've been wrapping my head around, does anyone offer some input as to the life span of a heat stick?
 
What scares me about heat sticks is the non-attached/non-permanent nature of them. There's a lot of power in there that is often just loosely resting over the edge of a kettle.

IMHO something like that needs to be properly locked down so that it doesn't move when in use. But maybe that's just me. I'm afraid that someone's going to catch an arm or a leg on the cord and pull the thing out of the kettle and hurt themselves, start a fire, who knows. Or move it and bump the element portion into something they're not supposed to, and so on. It's the things you don't expect to do that just happen sometimes that makes me want to lock anything that powerful down so that nothing can possibly happen.

Some people do have heat sticks that once installed basically don't move. They're pseudo-permanent. But then the cost is likely more than what I built so in most cases it makes more sense to just permanently install them (IMHO). No right or wrong answer here of course. I'm just giving my opinions.

Grounding or GFI has nothing to with it. That's like wearing your seat belt in your car. It's insurance or "just in case" that can help save you if a problem happens, but you should always design a safe system to begin with - not rely on the safety net.

Just like your car's seat belt, proper grounding and GFI is not a guarantee of 100% safety. It's simply added safety that *may* help if something goes wrong. You don't drive like a maniac running red lights and taking corners on two wheels just because you're wear a seat-belt. Same goes with electric brewing: You don't do proper grounding and use a GFI and then purposely do something unsafe because you think you'll be ok. There's absolutely no guarantee of any sort. It's just added (extra) protection that may help if something goes wrong.

A properly designed heat stick shouldn't leak any more than a properly designed permanently installed element. The idea that a heat stick will or may eventually leak means it's poorly designed to begin with.

I would also go gas or electric but not both on the same kettle. Even with the heat stick wire going over the top into the kettle, there's a TON of heat being produced and coming up the sides of the kettle from the massive gas burner.

This is getting off topic and doesn't really have anything to do with this thread involving building a control panel. ;) (You're in the design phase for your setup). Maybe start a new build thread called "Can I combine gas & electric using heat sticks?". You'll likely get more responses that way too as it's not buried on page 49 of this control panel thread.

Kal
 
I think my RIMS system offers a good compromise between gas and electric. The gas brings all the kettles up to temp, and you can maintain by circulating through the RIMS tube. My control panel is designed off of Kal's setup, it just has one PID vs three. The RIMS tube is grounded and sealed the exact same way Kal's elements are.
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but one of the REAL values of using a PID is that it "learns" your system - it "learns" how much of a time lag there is between it turning on the heat and it "seeing" the results of it turning on that heat. It then "learns" how long it takes for the temperature to stabilize after turning off the heat, and based on how far it overshot the target temperature, it adjusts it's algorithm and the next time it turns off the heat sooner.

But that algorithm only works if the system it is "learning" is stable. Any variables that you incorporate into the system will throw the algorithm being developing into a electronic tailspin.

I haven't yet built my control box (all the parts are in - almost), but my system design is different.

I will have separate PIDs to maintain my HLT, MT, and BK - I sometimes use my BK to pre-heat my sparge/HERMS water while I'm striking in from the HLT, so that when I move the pre-heated water over to the HLT, I want to be able to go immediately to recirculating and mash temp correction after striking in, if I miss my target. I'll have my RTDs at the in-flow (e.g., top) of each kettle, vice having the RTDs in the mass of the water/mash, because the volume and thermal mass changes with each batch (and during a batch) and therefore the amount of heat needed to nudge the temperature up ONE degree changes (especially between a 15 lb. mash and a 40 lb. mash), thereby messing up the algorithm. If I target 150 degrees at the in-flow, then the PID will ensure that the water/wort returning to the kettle is going to be 150 degrees, and my continuously recirculating the water/mash will result in the water/mash temperature to stabilize at 150 degrees. The PID "learns" how much heat was needed to be applied to the volume in kettle in order to give me 150 degrees at the inflow to the kettle (the volume of fluid in my hoses is constant, as is the heat loss), after it starts low (which is why I need to apply heat) at the out-flow (bottom) of the kettle, and then the water/wort looses more temperature flowing through the pumps and hosing on its way back to the kettle.

Using one PID to do everything relegates the lone PID to being a simple temperature controller - all it will know is that the measured temperature is lower than the set temperature, so power will be applied. Once it sees that it hit the set temperature, it turns off. Any subsequent overshoot is beyond its control - it takes several minutes (as much as 15 minutes in a large mash) for the temperature to stop rising. That means YOU have to decide how much lower to set your temperature (below your REAL temperature), and now YOU are performing the work of the algorithm.

I would sure like to hear if someone sees a flaw in my system logic... ;)
 
Namako said:
Maybe I'm missing something, but one of the REAL values of using a PID is that it "learns" your system - it "learns" how much of a time lag there is between it turning on the heat and it "seeing" the results of it turning on that heat. It then "learns" how long it takes for the temperature to stabilize after turning off the heat, and based on how far it overshot the target temperature, it adjusts it's algorithm and the next time it turns off the heat sooner.

But that algorithm only works if the system it is "learning" is stable. Any variables that you incorporate into the system will throw the algorithm being developing into a electronic tailspin.

I haven't yet built my control box (all the parts are in - almost), but my system design is different.

I will have separate PIDs to maintain my HLT, MT, and BK - I sometimes use my BK to pre-heat my sparge/HERMS water while I'm striking in from the HLT, so that when I move the pre-heated water over to the HLT, I want to be able to go immediately to recirculating and mash temp correction after striking in, if I miss my target. I'll have my RTDs at the in-flow (e.g., top) of each kettle, vice having the RTDs in the mass of the water/mash, because the volume and thermal mass changes with each batch (and during a batch) and therefore the amount of heat needed to nudge the temperature up ONE degree changes (especially between a 15 lb. mash and a 40 lb. mash), thereby messing up the algorithm. If I target 150 degrees at the in-flow, then the PID will ensure that the water/wort returning to the kettle is going to be 150 degrees, and my continuously recirculating the water/mash will result in the water/mash temperature to stabilize at 150 degrees. The PID "learns" how much heat was needed to be applied to the volume in kettle in order to give me 150 degrees at the inflow to the kettle (the volume of fluid in my hoses is constant, as is the heat loss), after it starts low (which is why I need to apply heat) at the out-flow (bottom) of the kettle, and then the water/wort looses more temperature flowing through the pumps and hosing on its way back to the kettle.

Using one PID to do everything relegates the lone PID to being a simple temperature controller - all it will know is that the measured temperature is lower than the set temperature, so power will be applied. Once it sees that it hit the set temperature, it turns off. Any subsequent overshoot is beyond its control - it takes several minutes (as much as 15 minutes in a large mash) for the temperature to stop rising. That means YOU have to decide how much lower to set your temperature (below your REAL temperature), and now YOU are performing the work of the algorithm.

I would sure like to hear if someone sees a flaw in my system logic... ;)
Click to expand...

Close. PIDs CAN learn, if in "autotune" mode...but they aren't continually learning.

PIDs have three main variables, P - proportional, basically, the farther away I am from my set point, the more power I'll give the element. I - integral, basically, the longer I am away from my set point, (the more "area under the curve"), the more power I'll give the element. D - derivative, basically, I watch how the current temperature is changing. If it's changing FAST, and approaching the setpoint, I'll back off on power.

You can set the coefficient variables for these three terms yourself, or you can tell the PID to learn the best settings. When you do this, you set up your system as close as you can to how it will be running while brewing, set a set point temp near where your normal temps will be, and tell it to "Autotune". It'll goose the power, and intentionally overshoot the temp. Once it passes the setpoint, it kills power, and observes how long it takes for temp to drop back down. From how fast the temp rises and then drops, it can calculate how it should set the P, I, and D variables.

But then it's done. No more learning, unless you tell it to autotune again. You can't "confuse" a PID.

SO, if you are using one PID to control multiple systems, you should probably autotune it on the system that requires the MOST temp control, (however you're controlling mash recirc temp, usually), and then not worry if it's a bit sloppy about the other systems' control.
 
shortyjacobs said:
SO, if you are using one PID to control multiple systems, you should probably autotune it on the system that requires the MOST temp control, (however you're controlling mash recirc temp, usually), and then not worry if it's a bit sloppy about the other systems' control.
Click to expand...
Correct. In my control panel I use separate PIDs. The boil PID is only used for boiling in manual so it's really not used like a PID at all.

The mash PID actually only displays the mash temp. That PID does nothing.

The HLT PID on the output of the HLT is what actually controls the mash temp. This is the critical PID that needs to be running right. It'll fire the HLT element to keep the temp consistent so that heat is exchanged into the wort from the MLT through the HERMS coil in the HLT.

Kal
 
kal said:
The boil PID is only used for boiling in manual so it's really not used like a PID at all.

The mash PID actually only displays the mash temp. That PID does nothing.
Kal
Click to expand...

Since you aren't using the PID functionality, is there a cheaper solution for these two temp displays?
 
michaeltrego said:
Since you aren't using the PID functionality, is there a cheaper solution for these two temp displays?
Click to expand...
Possibly. I don't know. You'd need something that can read an RTD temp, probe display the temp, allow for temp offset (calibration),, and support alarming. The PID's only about $40 so I didn't look around at all because the cost savings would have been minimal if any especially when you consider the total cost of the control panel.

Even if I had seen something that would have been usable, I like having 3 identical PIDs for aesthetic reasons and to also have a backup.

Kal
 
Just the add to kals point. I was having an odd wiring isssue, since I had three identical pids, probes, I was able to swap the cables and isolate the issue, bad xlr connector.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Home Brew Talk
 
my setup will 120vac just to run the heating element for my RIMs system. can I still use the DPDt switches with my system. I am wiring it up the same way Kal has done.
 
dulavjo said:
my setup will 120vac just to run the heating element for my RIMs system. can I still use the DPDt switches with my system. I am wiring it up the same way Kal has done.
Click to expand...
There are no switches on my setup that are double pole/double throw (DPDT). Industrial switches are a bit different if you're using to standard electronics switch wording (DPST, DPDT, etc). They use what are called 'contact blocks' that are separate from the operator/selector.
See here for complete explanation: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-1?page=9

You can likely keep using what I have if you simply add more contactors to switch the circuits you want to switch. How exactly that would work I can't help you with as I don't know exactly what you're trying to do.

Good luck!

Kal
 
sorry daughter sent note before I could proof read it.
I will be using 120vac to power my RIMs system. will the boil,HLT and the power in relays (30A/250vac DPDT 120vac coil) will the relays work ok with 120vac coming into the box instead of 240. also the yellow LEDs lights that are operated on 240vac is the wiring the same for 120vac. I bought the 120vac LEDs

Thank you.
John
 
John,

My control panel design is meant to run two heating elements (one at a time), provides temp monitoring for 3 kettles, and includes all the switches and control process required for 3 kettle HERMS setup. Using this control panel to run a single 120V RIMS element just doesn't make sense.

Sorry I can't be of assistance but you're not being clear about what you're trying to do exactly. I simply don't undertand as you're providing so little information. I suggest you start a new thread with your intended designs and goals. Provide as much detail as possible so that people can assist.

Kal
 
Been working on a 'beefed up' 50 amp control panel meant for larger batches. I thought I'd share some pictures...

From the front the 50 amp panel appears just like the regular 30 amp panel:

50_amp_1.jpg


Below are two extra heating element receptacles (to allow 2 elements per kettle) and a beefier 50 amp power input receptacle:

50_amp_3.jpg


On the inside the 30 amp wiring and components are upgraded to 50 amp where required and extra fuses are added to protect the 30 amp wiring:

50_amp_2.jpg


The fusing is required because on the standard 30A control panel the 30A circuit breaker in the electrical panel wall protects the 10 ga wiring. With this larger 50A panel the 50A circuit breaker in the electrical panel protects the 6ga wiring but we now need to add protection for the smaller 10ga wiring. So 30A fuses in 30A fuse holders are added to each of the HOT lines between the HLT and BK contactors and the element receptacles. 8 fuses/breakers total. This protects the 10 ga wire inside the panel and the 10 ga external wire between the element receptacle and the kettle. Just in case.

I like fact that the front of the panel does not change, so it looks and feels the same, the process is the same. You just now have nearly twice as much power in each kettle, allowing easy brewing for 1 barrel of beer (31 gallons) and possibly more. The upper limit is somewhat undefined, I probably wouldn't want to do more than 1.5 to 2 bbl with this but there are many factors involved (ambient temp/wind/etc).

Kal
 
Detailed wiring diagrams for the 50A control panel are now available as well, perfect for brewing 1bbl (31 gallons) or more. See here.

Kal
 
kal said:
Thanks!
Let me know if you find any mistakes (even typo's) or things that aren't clear.

Kal
Click to expand...

There is one question that don't seem to find anyone else having a problem with. I can't seem to find the inline fuse/holder that you used. I know there is a link, but I can't find the 7a 14 awg.
 
Radio Shack defunct?? I went there the other day and they are still online. (Though a shadow of their former selves, I admit.)

Anyway, just wanted to come on here and give thanks for your information. I'm in process of designing the layout of my own control panel and your build thread is most appreciated! I'm going to use many of your examples in my own system.

My current plans are for:

50A main power
30A each HLT and BK (In case I want to do a double batch and run the HLT for the second batch concurrently with the boil from the first.)
Single Pump
PID for HLT
PWM for BK

I'm also considering attaching a small LCD monitor to the panel and stashing a small computer inside the brewstand with speakers for jams while I brew. That way I can control the tunes without having to walk across the garage like I do now. Just need to buy a cheap trackball so I don't have to mess with a mousing surface.

Some of the electrical parts are kind of expensive, but I really want some of them, like the twist lock plugs and whatnot. Already got a nice panel from work and stripped it out and ready for new parts to go in.
 
Hey Kal,

I was reading your guide, and I got a little confused. My system is going to be much different than yours, so I'm trying to figure out what is actually necessary.

I understand that you use a contactor after the main power switch because this way you can use a 120V key switch to complete the 240V circuit (the same reason an electric car uses one- the auxiliary systems can energize the main battery pack). However, in my system I'm going to be running a 120V, 1500W ULWD element, so I will be running my pump, electronics, and element of a dedicated 120V 15A receptacle (that's roughly 92% capacity, but I am lacking 20A breaker's in my main control box so I don't have much choice).

Here are my questions:
1. is a contactor required after the key switch if everything will be running at 120V? If so, why?

2. I see that you use contactors in conjunction with your SSRs. Is that necessary in the case of a RIMS system with just one element? I believe your reasoning is that even if I have my element switch off, the SSR still poses the threat of shocking me (I think that's what I read?). The addition of the contactor would of course prevents this entirely (right? haha).

3. I keep hearing that we are using SSR's because they have the ability to switch almost instantaneously. But in your design, you have a SSR and a contactor in series. Wouldn't that not only limit the speed of the response to the speed that the contactor switches (rate limiting step), but also force the contactor to switch faster than it's intended (whenever the PID says so instead of a couple times during the brew session).

Thanks,
Jay
 
JayMac said:
1. is a contactor required after the key switch if everything will be running at 120V? If so, why?
Click to expand...
If your main power switch can handle all the power you expect to put through the panel, no contactor or relay needed. Confirm the switch you want to use as many are only good to 10A.

2. I see that you use contactors in conjunction with your SSRs. Is that necessary in the case of a RIMS system with just one element? I believe your reasoning is that even if I have my element switch off, the SSR still poses the threat of shocking me (I think that's what I read?). The addition of the contactor would of course prevents this entirely (right? haha).
Click to expand...
Correct. Read the "How it works" section on this page:
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=13

3. I keep hearing that we are using SSR's because they have the ability to switch almost instantaneously. But in your design, you have a SSR and a contactor in series. Wouldn't that not only limit the speed of the response to the speed that the contactor switches (rate limiting step), but also force the contactor to switch faster than it's intended (whenever the PID says so instead of a couple times during the brew session).
Click to expand...
SSRs are used because they're meant to be switched on/off a lot, often many times a second. A relay is not meant for that. See the "How it works" section again in previous link I posted. It explains it.

Kal
 
JayMac, I built the panel you describe, albeit for 20a. If you look at the pics, I have one in-line fuse for the lower amp stuff which allows me to use thinner guage wire, and one for the higher amp stuff (the fuse box). I did use a contactor for the main power as well as the SSR. I think you're a little confused and not sure if Kal's response will make sense to you. The contactor for the SSR is wired to be turned on/off from a switch on the panel so you can cut power to the heating element without shutting off the whole panel. When you start brewing you'll understand why this is helpful. It is not used to turn on/off the heating element to control the temp, that's what the SSR is for. When the contactor is off, the PID will attempt to fire the SSR (and thus the element) and no power will actually go through the element. When it's on its like it doesn't exist. The PID will fire the SSR and element rapidly as it tries to control the temp.

I hope this helps. I wish I had a good schematic of my setup but I can't even find my rough drawings and after looking at Kal's first rate diagrams they would not impress.

Panel 1.jpg


Panel 2.jpg


Panel 3.jpg
 
Fast forward to today: The control panel is still working great - I brewed batch #157 last week in my new brewing room where it now sits.

I painted the back panel that is used to hang it on the wall a darker grey colour to better match the wall tile (no more darkbrown/rust colours):

basement_Oct20_2012_3.jpg


IMG_2215.jpg


IMG_2668_2.jpg


Kal
 

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