Long lag time for lager yeast?

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phattysbox

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Brewed up a strongish-bock two days ago and absolutely no activity yet in the fermentor.

This is my second lager and the same thing happened with my Bohemian Pils. The beer turned out fine but I was surprised with the long lag time (2.5 days before activity).

My main question: do you all see longer lag times at lower temps for lagers?

My recipe:

8# munich malt (15.5L)
7# munich malt (9.0L)
2.1 ozs of english chocolate malt (color adjustment)
2.0 ozs of German hallertauer for an IBU of ~25

Double decoction mash: 122F dough in, 147F, 157F rests, 168F mashout.

Cooled wort down to 65F and further cooled wort to 51F overnight in chestfreezer. Pitched temp acclimated yeast (WYeast bavarian lager). Pitched a total of 700 billion cells as well - healthy pitching rate. Yeast was grown in 5 liter stepped starters (stir plate) and centrifuged down to 200mls.

Oxygenated for 2 minutes with pure O2.

Nothing for 48 hours now and counting.

Any ideas what I might be doing wrong if these lag times to active fermentation are too long?:confused:
 
I don't know what's going on!

I do know that when I make lagers, I always pitch the starter into slightly warmer wort and that seems to make the fermentation take off pretty quickly! I put 46-48 degree yeast into 50-52 degree wort. Of course, I don't have a centrifuge or anything like that, I just pitch a big wad of yeast cake out of the starter flask.

I wonder though how you're gauging no activity? In the carboy? Lagers are bottom fermenters (although you often will see some krausen) but unless you can really see inside the fermenter, there might be activity going on that you're unaware of. Just a thought!
 
I don't do a lot of lagers, but the last couple I've done, I pitched really low. I pitched at around 44F and then let it warm to 50F over a couple of days. It takes off slower and seems like it doesn't really get to full speed until it hits 50F. Yooper is right though, a lager fermentation definitely looks and acts different than an ale. Typically a lot less krausen. Usually less airlock activity. I actually pulled the airlock out of my last lager after a couple of days of fermentation just to make sure there was some activity.

My guess is it's probably fermenting, just slowly. The only reason it wouldn't be is if the yeast was bad to start with.
 
I wonder though how you're gauging no activity? In the carboy? Lagers are bottom fermenters (although you often will see some krausen) but unless you can really see inside the fermenter, there might be activity going on that you're unaware of. Just a thought!

Hhhhmmm... Good ol' plastic bucket.

I guess I'm used to looking at the satisfying belch of a blow-off tube.

There is no gas evolution coming from my vessel I guess would be a more accurate statement.
 
Keep waiting--it will start to work; probably today. You pitched enough yeast and the temperature is okay. Hopefully you aerated well.

Yes, temperature does affect the length of the lag phase. I always pitch cool but am considering changing to pitching a bit warmer (like, 55 instead of 46-48) then cooling the wort just to cut the lag time down.

But to answer your question, YES the lag time is longer at lower temperatures in my experience. But you have nothing to worry about, obviously you did a good job propogating yeast so it will go eventually.
 
My last two lagers I have pitched cold yeast (from fridge) into 65 degree wort. My last one had a lag time of less than 8 hours. I put the feremnter at fermentation temp right after pitching. It seems to really work good.

I have found that if I chill the wort down to fermentation temp and then pitch, I get a very long lag time, like you mentioned above.
 
Keep waiting--it will start to work; probably today. You pitched enough yeast and the temperature is okay. Hopefully you aerated well.

Yes, temperature does affect the length of the lag phase. I always pitch cool but am considering changing to pitching a bit warmer (like, 55 instead of 46-48) then cooling the wort just to cut the lag time down.

But to answer your question, YES the lag time is longer at lower temperatures in my experience. But you have nothing to worry about, obviously you did a good job propogating yeast so it will go eventually.

OK, this is good to hear. I figured this may be the case but wanted to check. Next time I might pitch at higher temps.
 
convectional practice is to pitch yeast into wort that is cooler than intended fermentation temp and let the beer warm to target ferm temp. The reason for this is if you pitch into warm wort and then let the beer cool the yeast will produce more esters and unwanted flavers at the warm beer temps. Also by acclimating the yeast to the warmer temps and then cooling may make the yeast dormant and in active causing a stalled fermentation. yooper's advice was spot on.
 
Indeed it is. I pitched my last lager at 45F. By the next morning it was going crazy.

I really like this method. What was your pitching rate? I just pitched 22 grams of S-189 rehydrated into 5.25 gallons of Dortmunder Export on Saturday at about 48 degrees and had about a 40 hour lag time.

Now after reading the product sheet more carefully I see Fermentis recommends a pitching rate of 200-300 grams/hectolitre at 48 degrees. My batch size was about 20 litres so I should have pitched 50 grams or more instead of the 22 grams I pitched. At least I rehydrated it and aerated my wort with pure O2 which should help.

If I had pitched at the recommended rate I probably would have seen activity sooner.
 
I've been reading this (and related) threads this past week while troubleshooting a slow-starting Vienna Lager. And now that I've made it pas the fermentation lag, and there's a comfortable amount of activity, I figured I'd contribute.

All in all, there seems to be two competing philosophies on pitching lager yeast. First, you have the school of thought that believes the yeast should be pitched to a wort that has already achieved it's fermentation temperature. Second, there is the belief that the yeast should be pitched while the wort is as room temperature (say, 75 degrees) and then gradually cooled when activity begins.

I initially attempted the first route using a packet of dry yeast. I brought my wort down to around 60 degrees, made an activator for my yeast, and then pitched it. From my understanding, it's important that the wort is not warmer than the starter, as this will shock and kill the yeast. As a corollary, some will argue that the yeast starter needs to achieve room temperature before pitching. Instead, I pitched my starter a bit warmer than room temperature, around 80 degrees. Whether this temperature disparity was fatal or whether the yeast was simply stale or contaminated, the fact is, after around 48 hours, there was no fermentation activity.

So, I resorted to the alternative: I removed my fermenter from the fridge, raising the temperature of the wort to around 70-75 degrees. Once the wort warmed up, I pitched Wyeast Bavarian Lager Yeast along with some yeast nutrient. After around 24 hours I still did not notice any activity, so I aerated the wort. Eventually, around 36 hours after pitching the second yeast, activity started. At that point, I re-introduced the fermenter to the fridge, where I am gradually bringing its temperature down to around 55-59 degrees.

In sum, which ever route you choose to take, it's probably best that the yeast (i.e., yeast starter) is around the same temperature of the wort. It's also evident that lager yeast have a longer lag time than ale yeasts. Of course, if my second yeast strain did not begin to ferment this morning, I probably would be a lot more panicked than I am now.
 
I removed my fermenter from the fridge, raising the temperature of the wort to around 70-75 degrees. Once the wort warmed up, I pitched Wyeast Bavarian Lager Yeast along with some yeast nutrient. After around 24 hours I still did not notice any activity, so I aerated the wort. Eventually, around 36 hours after pitching the second yeast, activity started. At that point, I re-introduced the fermenter to the fridge, where I am gradually bringing its temperature down to around 55-59 degrees.

It's also evident that lager yeast have a longer lag time than ale yeasts. Of course, if my second yeast strain did not begin to ferment this morning, I probably would be a lot more panicked than I am now.


With all due respect, your conclusions are drawn from experiences due to bad practices. Properly pitched lagers have just about the same lag time as ales.

If you are pitching enough healthy yeast (BIG and/or stepped up starters), you will see clear signs of activity in 8-12 hours and full on vigorous fermentation by 24 hours. This is my experience when pitching refrigerator temp starters into 44F wort.

Pitching one smack pack into 75F wort, waiting 36 hours for activity, then chilling to the mid 50's is a recipe for a terrible lager. Sorry, but that is a woeful under-pitch and way too high of temp for the most important part of the yeast growth curve. You're creating esters this way, then putting a brake on the kinetics of fermentation by dropping the temp that long after pitching.

If you follow these steps, you'll have short lag times and commercial quality lagers:

1. Consult yeastcalc or Mr. Malty to determine the amount of cells needed, and don't cheat on the starter. That means a stir plate and perhaps a step-up if you don't have a 5L flask. Don't ignore the viability dates.

2. Remove ALL break material when transferring to the fermentor. It should be crystal clear before pitching.

3. Chill the wort to 44-46F.

4. Aerate through a sterile filter for 30min, or oxygenate for 2 min.

5. Pitch a decanted starter at or close to the wort temp. Stir the carboy/bucket to get the yeast in suspension.

6. Set your controller to 50F with a 1* differential. Allow the heat of fermentation to bring the wort up to 50F and hold it there until activity has slowed considerably.

7. Test for diacetyl when you've reached 75% attenuation. If detected, raise the temp to 65F for 2-3 days before beginning to chill for lagering.

8. Chill over several days to 34F. Transfer to secondary or keg and lager for at least 4 weeks (more for bigger beers).

Cheers! :mug:
 
"Chill wort to 44-46F"-

How long will it take a 5 gallon bucket to chill to that temperature? I usually ice bath to about 70 then pitch ale yeasts, that can sometimes take up to an hour. I would do the same, then put the bucket in a freezer to bring it down further to your suggested 44. Do you let it chill overnight prior to pitching?
 
In the summertime, I chill the sort to about 72F withe the whirlpool chiller. I then transfer to the fermentor and place it in the chest freezer, attach the probe to the carboy, and set the controller to 40F.

It takes about 4 hours to get the wort down to the mid 40's. I then aerate and pitch the refrigerator temp decanted starter. I then set the controller to 50F and let it rise to that temp naturally.

If your sanitation is good, you'll have no problems waiting to pitch your yeast as the wort cools to the correct temp.

This is a homebrew version of the Narziss method found in German brewing texts.
 
How do you chill down your starter, or did it too ferment at the lower temperature? I've fermented my starter at room temperature and need to chill it down. It will chill too quickly if just inserted into fridge, it is only 3L.
 
How do you chill down your starter, or did it too ferment at the lower temperature? I've fermented my starter at room temperature and need to chill it down. It will chill too quickly if just inserted into fridge, it is only 3L.

It can't "chill too quickly". Quick is good, as that is what will cause the yeast to drop out. Then you can decant the spent wort before pitching.
 
smata67 said:
I thought yeast could be shocked by quick temperature changes, not so?

When the starter has fermented out (roughly 36hrs), I place it in the fridge for 24hrs to help the yeast flocculate to the bottom. At this point, I can decant and pitch if I have enough yeast, or add fresh starter wort (after decanting) if I need to step it up to a higher cell count.
 
With all due respect, your conclusions are drawn from experiences due to bad practices. Properly pitched lagers have just about the same lag time as ales.

If you are pitching enough healthy yeast (BIG and/or stepped up starters), you will see clear signs of activity in 8-12 hours and full on vigorous fermentation by 24 hours. This is my experience when pitching refrigerator temp starters into 44F wort.

Pitching one smack pack into 75F wort, waiting 36 hours for activity, then chilling to the mid 50's is a recipe for a terrible lager. Sorry, but that is a woeful under-pitch and way too high of temp for the most important part of the yeast growth curve. You're creating esters this way, then putting a brake on the kinetics of fermentation by dropping the temp that long after pitching.

If you follow these steps, you'll have short lag times and commercial quality lagers:

1. Consult yeastcalc or Mr. Malty to determine the amount of cells needed, and don't cheat on the starter. That means a stir plate and perhaps a step-up if you don't have a 5L flask. Don't ignore the viability dates.

2. Remove ALL break material when transferring to the fermentor. It should be crystal clear before pitching.

3. Chill the wort to 44-46F.

4. Aerate through a sterile filter for 30min, or oxygenate for 2 min.

5. Pitch a decanted starter at or close to the wort temp. Stir the carboy/bucket to get the yeast in suspension.

6. Set your controller to 50F with a 1* differential. Allow the heat of fermentation to bring the wort up to 50F and hold it there until activity has slowed considerably.

7. Test for diacetyl when you've reached 75% attenuation. If detected, raise the temp to 65F for 2-3 days before beginning to chill for lagering.

8. Chill over several days to 34F. Transfer to secondary or keg and lager for at least 4 weeks (more for bigger beers).

Cheers! :mug:


Thank you for your response G-String. I am fairly confident that my original yeast was not particularly healthy. Besides, I cannot wholeheartedly agree that healthily pitched ale lager have the same lag time as ale yeasts, but, as with most homebrew matters, it's really just a matter of opinion and experience. When my lager is completed and it's full of esters, I'll be sure to flagellate myself repeatedly, pouring the beer over my fresh wounds.
 
Besides, I cannot wholeheartedly agree that healthily pitched ale lager have the same lag time as ale yeasts, but, as with most homebrew matters, it's really just a matter of opinion and experience.

It's a fact, not an opinion. If you did it correctly, you would understand that and not make sweeping generalizations based on the one time you tried something and messed it up from start to finish.

Just trying to combat ignorance. Enjoy your masterpiece. :mug:
 
LOL G-String! I brewed my first lager this weekend. I couldn't get my wort below 70*F so I stuffed it into my chest freezer and got it to 56*F in 2 hours. I took it out and aerated it and then pitched a big starter and was able to get it to 52*F in another hour where it will sit for 2 weeks. I would never pitch lager yeast at ale temps, that is unless you want an ester mess.
 
I did my 5 gallon boil yesterday and finished around 1pm. I cooled the wort to 75F with ice water and put it in the fridge. This is a smallish Panasonic which typically gets down to about 38F. By 9pm, the wort was at 55F. I did not want to leave overnight to pitch at 45F as suggested in this thread, so I went ahead and oxygenated and pitched my starter which was at 45F. I set the controller at 50F and there it's been. My yeast is Wyeast Bavarian Lager. It took 3 days to get the 3L starter going and that was at room temperature. I took it down to 45F for a few days prior to pitching to clear it up and I poured out almost all of the liquid prior to pitching. I did have a taste of it, though, and can report it was quite nasty, very cidery, but appeared to be otherwise in good condition.
 
I did my 5 gallon boil yesterday and finished around 1pm. I cooled the wort to 75F with ice water and put it in the fridge. This is a smallish Panasonic which typically gets down to about 38F. By 9pm, the wort was at 55F. I did not want to leave overnight to pitch at 45F as suggested in this thread, so I went ahead and oxygenated and pitched my starter which was at 45F. I set the controller at 50F and there it's been. My yeast is Wyeast Bavarian Lager. It took 3 days to get the 3L starter going and that was at room temperature. I took it down to 45F for a few days prior to pitching to clear it up and I poured out almost all of the liquid prior to pitching. I did have a taste of it, though, and can report it was quite nasty, very cidery, but appeared to be otherwise in good condition.

One thing I've found that is very different about lagers from ales is their drinkability during fermentation. If you try a sample of an ale, you'll see the potential. If you try a sample of a lager, it's just all sorts of nasty.

It's ok though. Don't dump it. Keep it cold and sit on it for a few months. It'll turn out good.
 
I finally got some activity in the airlock today. I pitched Monday night (a 3L starter) after oxygenating w/ a tank and it is Friday (4 days from pitching). My bucket is pretty tight, rubber sealed. It's been at 50F pretty much the whole time since pitching. This Wyeast Bavarian Lager is a slow starter. What say you, let ferment until next weekend, do a 3 day rest at 60F then store at 35F for 6 weeks? It's a Helles.
 
I finally got some activity in the airlock today. I pitched Monday night (a 3L starter) after oxygenating w/ a tank and it is Friday (4 days from pitching). My bucket is pretty tight, rubber sealed. It's been at 50F pretty much the whole time since pitching. This Wyeast Bavarian Lager is a slow starter. What say you, let ferment until next weekend, do a 3 day rest at 60F then store at 35F for 6 weeks? It's a Helles.

No, let it ferment until it's finished. That might be a week, it might not. The beer makes the schedule, not the calendar.
 
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