22 gal pwm kettle

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defenestrate

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i have a 22 gallon kettle on the way that i plan to build as electric. i got this size for 15 gal batch capacity, but will be running mostly 5-10 gallon batches. and plan on running a pwm with 5500 watt element. i'm going to be heating the mash and sparge water in the bk and will not be running a rims/herms-i just want to use the pwm for simple boil strength control. i know the 5500 is more than enough for 10 gal and overkill for 5, but i want to have more power than needed and to help speed up mash and sparge times.

i've been spending a lot of time trying to wrap my head around all of this electrical stuff. I have a 240 v outlet for my dryer- will i be able to run some sort of extension cord from the outlet to the box for this to work?
 
You'll want 10g wire. Find out what you actually have power wise on the outlet. It will be between 240-220 likely. 5500W/the voltage will tell you your actual current draw. Your cable needs rated to at least this value.
 
You need 10 gauge SO cable for that - It's not more then $1.00 a foot if you look around for it.

(Assuming your dryer is 30 amp 240v) If I were you I would build your control box (Housing the PWM) with a 25 foot 10/3 whip and the appropriate 30 amp connector on the other end.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
defenestrate said:
cool... so then i would have to wire that to a plug (like a dryer plug)?
Click to expand...

Yep.

Which of these looks like your dryer outlet?

I'm going to guess NEMA 10-30

If that's the case, you need to get a Male cable end and a female cable end and attach them to your cable. It's really easy with a screw driver and a T-stripper...

You can find both at your favorite home store
 
SweetSounds said:
Yep.

Which of these looks like your dryer outlet?

I'm going to guess NEMA 10-30

If that's the case, you need to get a Male cable end and a female cable end and attach them to your cable. It's really easy with a screw driver and a T-stripper...

You can find both at your favorite home store
Click to expand...

yeah i'm pretty sure thats it, i'll double check when i get home from work. if so, i would use this plug with the male/female ends to attach?

http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=4745
 
defenestrate said:
yeah i'm pretty sure thats it, i'll double check when i get home from work. if so, i would use this plug with the male/female ends to attach?

http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=4745
Click to expand...

Yea. That's the male. That's too much money though. Lowes/Home Depot have cheaper versions. I think the male is around $8.00 and you can get a female wall mount receptacle and some cable grips for the other end. Should be around $10.00. Female NEMA 10-30 cable ends are hard to come by and not cheap...
 
SweetSounds said:
Yea. That's the male. That's too much money though. Lowes/Home Depot have cheaper versions. I think the male is around $8.00 and you can get a female wall mount receptacle and some cable grips for the other end. Should be around $10.00. Female NEMA 10-30 cable ends are hard to come by and not cheap...
Click to expand...

why would i need another receptacle? wouldnt i be wiring the plug to the 25 ft ext cable, then just plugging it into the wall outlet?
 
SweetSounds said:
Yea. That's the male. That's too much money though. Lowes/Home Depot have cheaper versions. I think the male is around $8.00 and you can get a female wall mount receptacle and some cable grips for the other end. Should be around $10.00. Female NEMA 10-30 cable ends are hard to come by and not cheap...
Click to expand...

some quick searching turned this us for $15... not seeing anything cheaper from hp/lowes yet
http://www.steadypower.com/catalog/product_info.php?&products_id=1535&tb=specs
 
That PWM will work, but has to be modified to a longer interval. Motor controllers will switch the power on and off many many times per second. That's extremely hard on a SSR. YOu need to change the capacitor to make the on/off interval at least 1-2 seconds.

That 10-3 will work fine. You don't need 10-4 unless you plan to pull 120 volts for something. You'll find 120 volts from either hot wire to neutral. 240 is hot to hot. If it's just the PWM and the element, you can run everything at 240.
 
SweetSounds said:
That PWM will work, but has to be modified to a longer interval. Motor controllers will switch the power on and off many many times per second. That's extremely hard on a SSR. YOu need to change the capacitor to make the on/off interval at least 1-2 seconds.
Click to expand...

yeah, i saw that in another thread about switching that.



SweetSounds said:
That 10-3 will work fine. You don't need 10-4 unless you plan to pull 120 volts for something. You'll find 120 volts from either hot wire to neutral. 240 is hot to hot. If it's just the PWM and the element, you can run everything at 240
Click to expand...

this wire? http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=15113

i am considering going to herms later... do you guys think i should consider going the PID route?
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_ id=3&zenid=536b4049734604428f30ff26e1743a0e
 
defenestrate said:
this wire? http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=15113

i am considering going to herms later... do you guys think i should consider going the PID route?
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_ id=3&zenid=536b4049734604428f30ff26e1743a0e
Click to expand...

Yep - That wire.
PID is a good option if you want it. It's not necessary, though. For your BK a PID is overkill. You just need a throttle on a big element. For mashing though, PID is the only way to go.

And if you design it right, you can implement both in the same box, and use it for both mashing and the boil... All for about $45 difference (By adding the PID and a switch)
 
SweetSounds said:
Yep - That wire.
PID is a good option if you want it. It's not necessary, though. For your BK a PID is overkill. You just need a throttle on a big element. For mashing though, PID is the only way to go.

And if you design it right, you can implement both in the same box, and use it for both mashing and the boil... All for about $45 difference (By adding the PID and a switch)
Click to expand...

that was going to be my next question... if i could keep the pwm for bk control and heating off the mash water in the bk, then use a PID in a cooler for the HLT.
 
defenestrate said:
that was going to be my next question... if i could keep the pwm for bk control and heating off the mash water in the bk, then use a PID in a cooler for the HLT.
Click to expand...

You can do it one of two ways...
(Disclaimer: It is my preference to use one SSR for each leg of a 240 volt load)

You can use 2 SSRs for one element hookup, and use a switch to connect either the PWM or the PID to the SSR triggers. This way you flip the switch to "Manual" or "Auto" And plug the RIMs/HERMs element in for the mash, and then plug in the BK element for the boil.

Or you can use 4 SSRs, and hook the PWM to one pair to drive the BK element, and the other pair to the PID to drive a RIMs or HERMs. Essentially, the cost difference is in the extra parts. To double the outputs, you need to double the SSRs, wire, and 240v plugs.

Both are great options, and both are used by many here. Just be aware of your load - If you go with option 2 you can never use both at the same time on a 30 amp circuit. If you want to use both, you'll need to move up to a 50 amp service - Which requires heavier wire and components.

Volts X Amps = Watts
Watts / Volts = Amps

So 5500 / 240 = 22.9 Amps - Well inside your 30 amp service
5500(BK) + 2000(RIMs) = 7500 /240 = 31.25 amps - 30 amps isn't enough
2 X 5500 = 11000 / 240 = 45.83 amps - Time for a bigger breaker, 6 gauge wire instead of 10, yadda yadda yadda ;)

The other thing to remember (In option 2, with a 30 amp service) is that you can't even run both elements at the same time at 50% power. Because of the way pulse width modulation works...
A 50% power setting at the PWM means 100% power to the element, 50% of the time. It's the same for a PID as well.
So if both the PID and the PWM are set for 50%, and they both fire (100%) at the same time, it's a 200% load on your system.

Edit: that's probably in the top 2 most used elements here - You'll be in good company.
 
awesome info. thanks.

i think i will still go with the pwm for right now.

so now my build list consist of:

kettle
5500 watt element
approx 25 ft of the bulk wire
plug for dryer outlet

in addition i will need
SSR
a box to house all the parts
some type of knob for boil control

if i understand correctly, the ssr is actually controlling the on/off of the element?
 
How much will building or buying a pwm cost?
You should be able to buy a pid for less than $50 and it can run a bk, hlt, or rims. You will need one or two SSR regardless whether you use pwm or pid.
You may also want to consider a contactor (<$15) to give you a mechanical on/off for the element.
 
stevehaun said:
How much will building or buying a pwm cost?
You should be able to buy a pid for less than $50 and it can run a bk, hlt, or rims. You will need one or two SSR regardless whether you use pwm or pid.
You may also want to consider a contactor (<$15) to give you a mechanical on/off for the element.
Click to expand...

the assembled pwm is $8
 
The PWM is $8, and the power supply will be another $6-10.

Some prefer not to use a PID for boil control because manual control from a PID menu can suck.
Some don't mind. It's preference...

For what it's worth, you can always add a PID later, and use a switch to select between the PWM and the PID to control the SSR triggers.

I recommend 2 SSRs so that you have both hot legs of the 240v circuit switched. It's important, because even when the PWM says off, you'll still sink 120 volts if you manage to touch the unswitched leg and ground!

+1 for the contactor too, because SSRs tend to fail "ON" - IOW you can lose the ability to turn your element off if the SSR fails.

E-Stops are a good idea too. Look at Kal's build for a good interlock failsafe using a contactor.
 
How does the manual control from a PID menu "suck"? It takes me about 30 seconds to dial it in but after that it is done. I use contactors to turn the element on/off during the boil over phase. I guess if I didn't have contactors it would be a pain to dial up/down the %power during the boil over phase. Any other drawbacks?
 
stevehaun said:
How does the manual control from a PID menu "suck"? It takes me about 30 seconds to dial it in but after that it is done. I use contactors to turn the element on/off during the boil over phase. I guess if I didn't have contactors it would be a pain to dial up/down the %power during the boil over phase. Any other drawbacks?
Click to expand...

That's the only one I know of.

That and PWM costs $8 and change and you just have to turn a knob...

It's just personal preference, just like an SSR on both hot legs of 240v loads.
 
SweetSounds said:
The PWM is $8, and the power supply will be another $6-10.

Some prefer not to use a PID for boil control because manual control from a PID menu can suck.
Some don't mind. It's preference...

For what it's worth, you can always add a PID later, and use a switch to select between the PWM and the PID to control the SSR triggers.

I recommend 2 SSRs so that you have both hot legs of the 240v circuit switched. It's important, because even when the PWM says off, you'll still sink 120 volts if you manage to touch the unswitched leg and ground!

+1 for the contactor too, because SSRs tend to fail "ON" - IOW you can lose the ability to turn your element off if the SSR fails.

E-Stops are a good idea too. Look at Kal's build for a good interlock failsafe using a contactor.
Click to expand...

dumb question warning... the power supply is what exactly? mind sending me a link?

2 of these SSR's??
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=30

would i need 2 of these contactors, one for each ssr? or would i only need one for the 2nd leg of the element?
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=164

and i assume i would need 2 heat sinks as well?
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=77

$ starting to add up :cross:
 
If you use a contactor, I think you can safely control only one limb of the 240 vac circuit, in other words, use one SSR. Reasonable people will disagree. If you don't use a contactor, then I think you definitely need two SSRs.
Those are the SSR you need.
You only need one 30 amp contactor.
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=129
The contactor is 2 poles and will control both limbs of the 240 vac circuit.
Yes, those are the heat sinks that you need.
Is your circuit GFI protected?
 
Typically the contactor will be 2 pole - So it'll break both legs of the load. Only one needed.

SSRs are single pole devices normally. One per leg - Again, personal preference...

Power supply is here:
http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=635
It's listed as 220v - I have this power supply, and it's got 120v taps as well. Makes you good to go regardless of your supply voltage.

As for one SSR vs 2, people regularly argue both ways.
On one hand, with only one SSR, when it says off, you've still got death waiting on the other leg to ground. (OK, it's only 120, and it probably wont kill you. But it's not safe IMO)
On the other hand, if you use a contactor for positive disconnect of the load, it could be argued that one SSR is good because "If you want it to be off, you'll kill the contactor". I disagree, because I use a contactor as an E-Stop or manual disconnect. If the system is live and the contactor is closed and an SSR fails closed, there's a 120v 30 amp circuit itching to use me to get to ground.
Unlikely? Yep. But I like it when my heart keeps time, and that other SSR costs $10
 
I use an e-stop circuit with a contactor that shuts off all power to my control panel. I also have a contactor for each element that I use as an on/off switch. In my panel, I don't think that adding another SSR for each element would increase the safety of my system. If I want an element off, I flip a switch and both legs are off. That said, if I didn't have a contactor for each element, I would have two SSRs for each element. So, I guess I am not really disagreeing with you.
 

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