Is all grain supposed to be hard?

I was an extract brewer for a bunch of years. Then I walked into the LHBS and asked the guy for suggestions on a recipe for all grain IPA, not realizing it required a separate setup from what I had. In front of several people in line, he laughed and started lecturing me on the equipment and the time involved, etc etc. "You just can't suddenly decide to brew all grain!" he hollered. Most of the people in line were laughing hysterically at me. I seem to remember even a man's german shephard laughing as well. I will never forget that sound as long as I live. I blacked out for the remainder of the hazing but do remember screaming "FEET DON'T FAIL ME NOW" as I sprinted from the store.

After 2 years and 4 Anothony Robbins courses, I decided to revisit, and have been all grain ever since.

And looking back now I have to ask WHAT'S THE BIG FRIGGEN DEAL?

I skim over the message boards and it confuses me. People seem scared or imtimidated by the concept. It's like these people are deciding whether or not to have another child. I see the YouTube videos... 30 minutes of a guy trying to explain in great length how to convert a 10-gallon igloo cooler to be a mash tun, which by the way is pretty much all you need (hmm that took me under 10 mins using a wrench and a valve I bought online). Then there's the 60 minute step-by-step guide on how to fabricate your own false bottom ($15 on Amazon). A 3 month course on the chemistry of water you'll need to take before you can make an IPA (you trying to win a beer competition or make some good beer for your friends?).

Always been confused about all that.

Ok, bye!

zc

I have never done a extract batch. And funny thing a friend wants to do one and I pretty much have to learn how.

I don't know what the big deal is. People make it out to be a huge thing like some sort of right of passage. I only started out brewing extract because I didn't know about all grain. Then I stepped up to BIAB partial mashes and it still didn't feel like it was MY beer using extracts. Moved out of my apartment almost a year ago and started doing all grain. I'm now in the process of stepping up to 10 gallon batches. If you think YOU got laughed at try walking into a snobby homebrew store and asking questions about Mr.Beer.

When I was brewing extract & reading all the confusing posts on all grain, I thought no way! Then I came across the following 2 websites; I thought, heck ya I can do that!.
http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/
http://www.freewebs.com/kenlenard/allgrainbrewing.htm

ingredients are cheaper, process is easier IMO, up front setup costs are the only downfall, from my perspective.

Its more time consuming but I would never say it's hard. There are times when you need to pay attention to minor detail but it's not rocket science.
I've made some decent extract beers and very good partial mash beers but I've not been able to duplicate AG yet.

djt17 said:

When I was brewing extract & reading all the confusing posts on all grain, I thought no way! Then I came across the following 2 websites; I thought, heck ya I can do that!.
http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/
http://www.freewebs.com/kenlenard/allgrainbrewing.htm

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Seriously. People are only concerned with "I want to show people how much I undersand about AG brewing". It should be, "Let me explain this in the simplest terms possible once and for all so that nobody has to explain this again."

It's supposed to be as difficult as possible.... so everyday people can't join the club. Because, you know, we aren't worthy. Sounds like you got it pretty much figured out... don't let those guys at the shop intimidate you!!

Brewed one batch of extract, and then stepped up to all-grain. Not a big deal...just a bit more gear. We have an excellent brew shop in Corvallis, with a great selection of malts, and grain mills to use on-site, so that is one piece of gear we haven't had to buy - yet...

zippyclown said:

Is all grain supposed to be hard?

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Yes. If it's soft then you're more than likely going to have to buy new grain...



No. I started out all-grain and haven't looked back. Just read up on techniques, used this forum and it's inhabitants, and wasn't afraid to make mistakes. You learn from them.

Let's be honest here, all grain brewing is pretty dang easy but is also a lot more stuff and a lot more to think about when stepping up from extract. With a good extract recipe with stepping grains you can make good beer so long as you can read the directions. With all grain there is a bit more planning, more equipment and just more to do on brew day so I'd say it is a moderately big step up that isn't for everyone.

Is it a difficult step? No, I don't think so, but it is quit a bit more to do and keep on top of. But again, so long as you can read you can read up on it and do more than fine on your first go round. It just might be a bit more reading.

If someone in a shop copped an attitude like that, I'd run like hell. Some folks need to cool their jets and lose the attitude.

I think a lot of people (me too?) over-complicate AG brewing because they're people who really like tinkering...endless tinkering. Some people just want to make beer and don't enjoy building gizmos or solving puzzles. Tinkery people are attracted to AG. At the shop I part-time at, many or most of our AG customers are engineers, machinist/fabricator types, and the like. Many or most of our kit and extract customers are people who are more looking for fun and also hand crafted beer, but just don't care to fiddle with things to make 'em work. There's enough room in the world for all of us, and the world needs more homebrew!

I can see why some people just plain don't want to do AG- a bit more equipment (takes more space), full boil instead of partial, more wort to chill before pitching, more temp measurement, more calculations. Some people just don't want the fuss, which is fine. Buy an ingredient kit, throw the pot on the stove, and have an easy and fun time of it. The last time I helped a friend with an extract kit, it was easy and fun hanging out. It's exactly what many people are looking for in a hobby. It really didn't feel like "brewing" though...but that's because I really enjoy taking lots of measurements, scribbling lots of notes, and controlling every aspect of the final product.

It's kind of like bread from a bread machine and a mix or making it from scratch. Choosing proportions of different flours, perfecting kneading and rising, getting the texture just right- compared to "dump it in and turn it on." Both methods make tasty bread.

beergynt said:

Yes. If it's soft then you're more than likely going to have to buy new grain...



No. I started out all-grain and haven't looked back. Just read up on techniques, use this forum and it's inhabitants, and don't be afraid to make mistakes. You'll learn from them.

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And 100% of my mistakes still made beer. Go figure.

To me all grain was not about easy or hard, nor equipment. It was not about time or cost. For me all grain brewing was about CONTROL. I am am a CONTROL freak (just ask my wife.... she will tell how much of a control freak I am). So 1 extract batch with a Mr Beer kit and 1 book (How To Brew by Mr. Palmer) I was all grain. Thing is no one ever told me that I should use an all grain kit to start out so I invented my own recipe. No one told me lagers were difficult to get right without a bunch of off flavors and took a long time. So my very first all grain was Black Lager using a german lager yeast and since it was winter and the basement is cold it fermented fine and I lagered it secondary by packing it in snow in a cooler in the basement. Heck I was newby what did know. That beer turned out great. So to answer your question no all grain is not supposed to be hard...

It is supposed to be FUN!

I brewed 2 extract batches, and like others have said it just didn't feel like MY beer using someone elses extract...plus I got curious about: Where does extract come from? What did primitive people brew with before extract? Why is is so expensive to buy extract?

I started planning out a material list to make a cooler mash-tun when I stumbled across the HBT sticky BIAB thread and decided to try that out first since the only investment required for me (already had a 10G pot and a stove that can boil 7g+ no problem) was a paint straining bag for $2.50 at Lowes... Originally it was supposed to be a test and a way to practice before upgrading to MLT, but it turned out so well, and was so stinking easy, I just never turned back.

Bonus: My 2nd extract batch boiled-over, resulting in a BIG mess to clean. Never had that problem with AG/BIAB.

some people can't tell their arse from a hole in the ground....jus'sayin...carryon

beergynt said:

Yes. If it's soft then you're more than likely going to have to buy new grain...

.

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Glad I'm not the only one who thought that when I saw the title

There's nothing hard about it. It's pretty much just like making coffee. You grind it and soak it in some hot water then drain it out.

-you can't really screw it up so bad that you have to dump it, there are very few if any times you would dump out a beer.
-you learn each time you do it, and your process is largely dependent on your equipment.
-RDWHAHB

AG is not inherently difficult, but then everyone's definition of difficult is different. IMO nobody should find the basics of AG difficult after a few extract batches to get the hang of temperatures and liquid transfers. And a lot of people would probably not find it hard to start right out with AG.

As far as needing more equipment, that is false. You can do AG brewing with a nylon paint strainer bag!

Brewing with proper techniques takes some time to learn. How much depends on how much of the right information you can find. There are only a few rules for making good beer. Just learn what they are and try to follow them using whatever equipment and processes you prefer.

zippyclown said:

I was an extract brewer for a bunch of years. Then I walked into the LHBS and asked the guy for suggestions on a recipe for all grain IPA, not realizing it required a separate setup from what I had. In front of several people in line, he laughed and started lecturing me on the equipment and the time involved, etc etc. "You just can't suddenly decide to brew all grain!" he hollered. Most of the people in line were laughing hysterically at me. I seem to remember even a man's german shephard laughing as well. I will never forget that sound as long as I live. I blacked out for the remainder of the hazing but do remember screaming "FEET DON'T FAIL ME NOW" as I sprinted from the store.

After 2 years and 4 Anothony Robbins courses, I decided to revisit, and have been all grain ever since.

And looking back now I have to ask WHAT'S THE BIG FRIGGEN DEAL?

I skim over the message boards and it confuses me. People seem scared or imtimidated by the concept. It's like these people are deciding whether or not to have another child. I see the YouTube videos... 30 minutes of a guy trying to explain in great length how to convert a 10-gallon igloo cooler to be a mash tun, which by the way is pretty much all you need (hmm that took me under 10 mins using a wrench and a valve I bought online). Then there's the 60 minute step-by-step guide on how to fabricate your own false bottom ($15 on Amazon). A 3 month course on the chemistry of water you'll need to take before you can make an IPA (you trying to win a beer competition or make some good beer for your friends?).

Always been confused about all that.

Ok, bye!

zc

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Great post! I have always wondered why the first dozen people I talked to made it so confusing until I found someone who said, stop by, have a beer and watch me with my $50 worth of gear make some beer. Been all grain ever since

I use the same method to explain it to new brewers RDWHAHB

The newsletter email I got from BeerSmith today was a one-pager on switching to all-grain and even that was kind of wordy!

Now, while I'm still very new at brewing, I did two extract batches and two all-grain BIAB. I mean it took all of an extra hour and barely any extra equipment.. my immediate thoughts were exactly that... "why do people freak out over this?".

The door you open to all-grain isn't much bigger or harder to open than the door to extract brewing... it's just the room you're entering that is so much larger.

IMO, I think the biggest problem with a small faction of homebrewers, is that they forget we were all beginners once. That and everyone wants to try to impart all the wisdom they've acquired over the years into your first brew. Amongst this smaller group, you find a lot of "This is the only way and that to make good beer, you have to do it exactly this way." It's easy to get system overload when watching what other people do. I think after gaining all the knowledge, it's easy to forget that for the first timer, get the basics down, then work on perfection.

There are a bunch of things that over all, will make the process much smoother, but if you already are brewing extracts, really, the only other thing you need to go all grain is a mash tun. Once you get that squared away, I say go for it and brew a beer. The only real water quality issue I would worry about this early in the game is chlorine/chloramine in the water. If you have it, you either want to remove it or use pure water from the store. This is the one thing that will flat out ruin a beer, no matter how well you completed all of your other steps.

So, with that, go for it. it's not hard at all, it does take some more time than extract, but it's well worth it in the end. I've only brewed 5 all grain batches so far and just as a reference, I started heating my strike water at 7:30 am on Sunday morning, by 1 pm, I had everything cleaned up, yeast pitched and was sitting, drinking a beer watching football. Once you do a couple of batches, you learn your system and it becomes really easy. It still takes the time, but it can easily be streamlined.

It's only as difficult as you make it. It can be as simple as a single infusion and batch sparge or as complicated as a triple decoction and fly sparge. Take your pick.

This is a presentation I did at 2010 NHC about going all grain....

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2010/Moving_to_Mashing-Denny_Conn.pdf

I actually just decided one day to do all grain. That was before I'd ever brewed anything, and I was actually in Afghanistan at the time. I did one extract recipe to get started while I was still assembling the brew stand. I don't think it's hard. I've only done 5 so far, and can say that I'm happy with the results of all of them. Except the wort volume of the porter. Undershot the amount of water needed for that one.

I think the beauty of this hobby is that it can be as simple or complicated as you make it. Some guys are perfectly happy following both extract and all-grain kits. Other guys want to get way into the nitty gritty of hopping schedules and techniques, water reports, etc.

Either way good beer is made (and drunk!) and it bums me out when some people put down extract brewers or make AG seem like rocket science.

This hobby is what you make of it - and in the end the beer will be good either way.

seabass07 said:

It's only as difficult as you make it. It can be as simple as a single infusion and batch sparge or as complicated as a triple decoction and fly sparge. Take your pick.

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This ^^^^, some people like to get technical, I have done it numerous ways. Currently I am using the K.I.S.S. method, some of my best brews have also been some of the very simplest.

That being said, if one day you want to enter your beers in a competition, you will need to track certain details of the brew.

I will say this though. Considering that you are relying on enzymes to do your work for you and you have to get them in the right temperature range, I still haven't gotten over the "amazement" phase of the AG brewing process. Probably never will. I spend the bulk of a day mashing, boiling, chilling and pitching. But it never fails. I wake up the next day and see a layer of Krausen on my wort and think ... "I'll be damned. It worked again."

BobbiLynn said:

Because, you know, we aren't worthy.

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Like Gordon Strong put it... Extract is like making Koolaid. All hail to the all-gainers! Good Grief.

In my experience, the switch was not hard, I actually enjoyed it more than any other brewing experience. What's funny is, this never crossed my mind before I did it. It's seriously a lot of psych-out. Just have to get the volumes right and that's about it.

Denny said:

This is a presentation I did at 2010 NHC about going all grain....

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2010/Moving_to_Mashing-Denny_Conn.pdf

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My man, that is some good stuff right there. You have communication skills and left your ego out of it. Wanted to just convince people that it's easy. Then ease them into some nitty gritty.

I have to say, one of the best videos I've seen on all grain brewing is this one:


Just a guy with a Virginia Tech t-shirt drinking beer and showing you how it's done in his tiny apartment kitchen while his girlfriend films it. You can almost brew along with him if you pause and play the video as needed. Just simple, and he even explains fly sparging.

My advice to anybody interested in what it takes would be to grab a beer and just watch that video straight through. Then watch it a second time, but this time get a piece of paper and see if you can create a simple set of instructions in your own words. Also have a beer. If you get upset for any reason, stop watching, have another beer and then watch this nonsense to clear your head.



Then try again.

It's so startlingly easy it will motivate you to place one order on amazon for $87.45 for the 10-gallon cooler and parts you need to build your mash tun (assembly takes 10 minutes). Forget the money... You'll save that money in the long run by not buying extract trust me.

The only issue I ran into was I needed a 1/2 inch adapter to connect the bazooka screen to the valve. Female on both ends. Got that for under a buck at Home Depot. If you find that you need it just bring the valve and screen to home depot and tell the guy you need the piece to connect them. EASY EASY EASY!

Yes there are various options. But if you just want to get going, buy all of this in one order and you're ready. I promise it will work for you, and really that's all you want right? You can expand your horizons later. Your friends will think you're a genius just for getting this far.

EDIT-Get yourself a 10 gallon boil pot too. Not cheap! But for a 5 gallon batch you'll want to boil about 7 to 7.5 gallons in one pass.

And then you can get your own blog... And the cycle of all grain intimidation starts again...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000F6SHTK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003H83G94/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003ISY2DC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

zc

You know I ran into a guy like that at my LHBS and he basically laughed when I asked a question. I fortunate to have a few stores in my area. I took my business elsewhere as the other stores did not laugh and want my business and you know what. They were in our boots at some point too, everyone is a noob at some point during their brewing life.

noobiebrewer said:

You know I ran into a guy like that at my LHBS and he basically laughed when I asked a question. I fortunate to have a few stores in my area. I took my business elsewhere as the other stores did not laugh and want my business and you know what. They were in our boots at some point too, everyone is a noob at some point during their brewing life.

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Sorry my toddler hit send

Hopefully you have other stores to go to if not there are some good mail order companies out there.

You can also call the store and speak to the owner/manager and tell them that they have a ****** bag working for them.

In my case the guy was the owner and I told him he would not get one red cent outta me. The sad part is the store is only 5 blocks away. Now I drive to the other side of the city. Lol
I guess that saves me money haha

It's not hard at all, but it's a little intimidating to run through a 5+ hour procedure for the first time... it's easier to do at least one or two extract batches first to learn that portion, then add the simple step of making temp controlled barley soup.

There are some more details such as water chemistry/mash pH that are important, but you don't have to worry about that right away.

Well I screwed up the only two extract batches that I've brewed and I did a decent job with most of my all grain brews. so I'm going to say, no it's not hard and really not any more time consuming..

When new brewers ask me if they should just start with all-grain I give them my best advice:

Start with extract until you have that process and the fermentation process down. Then if you want more control you can go all grain.

This site is littered with posts from people so exasperated by this or that they want us to talk them down from the "quitter" ledge...so I personally think that starting extract increases the likelihood that a brewer STICKS.

But no, it's not "hard" it's just more elaborate and takes longer. I realize that "elaborate" is going to stir some objections, but even biab isn't as easy as dissolving extract into hot water IMHO.

I have a habit of brewing for a couple years and then stopping for a couple or three years but I started extract brewing in 1991 and enjoyed brewing and liked my beers ,.. moved on to partial grain brewing around 1996 and really started to enjoy the beer ... then in 2012 went all grain. I still enjoy brewing and I now LOVE the Beer! I did have to get comfortable with the AG process but now it feels very simple.

I think it's focus on things that are important but not necessary to make great beer. Ie- I've made an award winning beer and seldom check ph. I know messing with my water may make better beer but proper o2, yeast pitching and temp control gives me more than good enough beer

swackattack said:

I think it's focus on things that are important but not necessary to make great beer. Ie- I've made an award winning beer and seldom check ph. I know messing with my water may make better beer but proper o2, yeast pitching and temp control gives me more than good enough beer

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Pittsburgh water is great for brewing. Low in everything, soft... generally all you might do is add a moderate amount of salts.

You've been brewing with fantastic water

My water in Cambridge MA and now Binghamton NY has been a bit of a challenge my whole brewing career, but nothing that actually holds me back.

I'm not knocking extract brewing,... but I don't like short cuts.

My first batch was All Grain 10 gal. and even though I screwed it up it was still good beer! (So I guess it wasn't a screwup more like learning curve). Buddy at work is extract brewing and I get better raves from those who try both. <Insert Knuckle on chest rub here>. His beer is good, I like having more control of the recipe.

I never had a problem with AG brewing, and my only advise is, study and have patience. Or to quote Charlie, " Relax, don't worry, and have a homebrew".

pb

NervousDad said:

Well I screwed up the only two extract batches that I've brewed and I did a decent job with most of my all grain brews. so I'm going to say, no it's not hard and really not any more time consuming..

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My first batch was an extract wheat beer while I was still assembling my all grain equipment. It turned out horrible. Maybe 1-2% alcohol. I drank a quite a bit of it and then only blew a .012 on my breathalyzer. I know I should dump it to make corny keg room for the other three that I have in the final stages of fermentation. However, my all grain batches have been great and I love drinking them.