Can Base Malt really make extract more fermentable?

I heard this eluded to a while back.... that base malt has enough enzymes that it can actually convert LME or DME, which is mashed at "all purpose" temps 155 or so, to make it more fermentable. Is this true and does anyone have any experience with this?

I like to make big IPAs, around 1.090, but I have trouble getting them below about 1.028 or so, much too sweet and thick for me. Ill be doing a partial mash next weekend. Instead of striking with water, can I mash 8 pounds of marris otter with 3 gallons of 1.040 or so wort? Am I a victim to a rumor, and extract is a sealed deal? Please help

The added enzymes could help butFermentation control and proper pitching rate are key. make a HUGE starter and pay attention to fermentation temperatures

I wouldnt call 155 "all purpose" it would create a lot of unfermentable long chain sugars as with lots of extracts

Well I guess that's really the root of what im getting at (and also why im getting set up for full AG right now) is that once those sugars are formed, can they be modified. Because if not, then there is really no point in doing what I mentioned. With my own mash, I can start at 125 for 20 minutes, then bring it up into the 140s and creat wort that is much more fermentable than extract could be with any size starter. And yes, I always make at least a 2.5 liter starter 3 days ahead for a big brew

I would think that the enzymes in the mash (such as alpha and beta amylase, still more active in a lower temperature mash) would be able to break down the longer chain dextrins in the extract, but not sure to what degree. Anyone else?

There is no need for a rest at 125, that will degrade head forming proteins. The rest at 140 will be very beneficial. I don't know with any certainty, but it seems like adding the extract into your mash should allow those enzymes to continue breaking down the sugars in the extract. It's worth a try. You may also consider adding simple sugar as that ferments nearly 100% and contributes to dryness in a beer.

Replace some extract with 1lb of corn sugar, and be sure to pitch the proper amount of yeast., maybe even a slight over-pitch. After vigorous fermentation is over (~ 3 days), let the beer warm a bit to about 72F to finish. Keep your percentage of crystal malts low (4 - 8%). This should go a long way towards drying out your IPA's.

I'd also look at simpler modifications to your procedure (oxygenation, yeast #s/pitch) before going down this road of using malt to further convert LME/DME fermentables. I would think you should be getting it a bit drier than 1.028....at least down to 1.020.

As to your question, I can't think of a reason why you would not be able to mash some LME/DME to get more fermentables out of it. But if you had the capability to do that, you may as well go AG anyway...

I'd use amylase powder instead of steeping base malt in wort. I think there is also a White Labs enzyme that works at mash temps to increase fermentability.

Edit: Ultra-ferm and Opti-mash are the enzymes from White Labs. Add those to extract Warmed to their optimal temps, and fermentability will increase.

bbrim said:

There is no need for a rest at 125, that will degrade head forming proteins.

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What about Duvel? Have you had it? I found a clone recipe on here, its only pilsner malt and supposedly it has a rest at 125. And there is no head greater than the one on a glass of that

broadbill said:

I'd also look at simpler modifications to your procedure (oxygenation, yeast #s/pitch) before going down this road of using malt to further convert LME/DME fermentables. I would think you should be getting it a bit drier than 1.028....at least down to 1.020.

As to your question, I can't think of a reason why you would not be able to mash some LME/DME to get more fermentables out of it. But if you had the capability to do that, you may as well go AG anyway...

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I am going AG, I have this partial mash kit I have to use up. I just made my ss braid cooler mash tun last weekend

ArcaneXor said:

I'd use amylase powder instead of steeping base malt in wort. I think there is also a White Labs enzyme that works at mash temps to increase fermentability.

Edit: Ultra-ferm and Opti-mash are the enzymes from White Labs. Add those to extract Warmed to their optimal temps, and fermentability will increase.

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I just saw that product for the first time yesterday. Ill have to give it a shot. Thanks!

I good idea I saw when reading "Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation" was too add a second burst of oxygen 12 hours after pitching. When doing high gravity beers. Read the book for details.

wadefisher said:

I good idea I saw when reading "Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation" was too add a second burst of oxygen 12 hours after pitching. When doing high gravity beers. Read the book for details.

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I don't have 02 , I use a silicon fan on a SS shaft I made that I hook to a drill, and airate with that. Last brew I made was a belgian that was 1.105, twelve hours after pitching I went in with that thing again and airated, it volcanoed my krausen into my water bath, but the beer did come down to 1.015 I thought it was the crazy belgian yeast but maybe the extra oxygen helped. I need an O2 system

I use an aquarium pump with steril filter and a difusion stone. Did not care for buying canned O2. Plus you can't over do it when pumping air. You can over do it using pure O2.

The pilsner malt used in Duvel is likely not as highly modified as malts we are using in our homebrews. Therefore, a protein rest would be beneficial to aid in preparing the enzymes for starch conversion. Unless you're using a very lightly kilned european pilsner malt the work in a protein rest will be redundant and break down head forming proteins. Mosher talks about this, and Gordon Strong talks about it in their books on brewing. Check it out.

bbrim said:

Mosher talks about this, and Gordon Strong talks about it in their books on brewing. Check it out.

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I think I will. Im looking for some good literature on homebrewing with grain

ArcaneXor said:

Ultra-ferm and Opti-mash are the enzymes from White Labs. Add those to extract Warmed to their optimal temps, and fermentability will increase.

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Interesting, hadn't seen Ultra Ferm before. Might give that a try and see how it turns out on a big beer.