Dilemma: 100% Brett or not?

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JLem

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Sorry in advance if this goes on too long...

I am planning on brewing a saison/farmhouse ale tomorrow. I went to my LHBS to pick up the grains and the yeast, but they were closed for vacation. So, I ended up at a place I don't normally go to. Every time I've tried this place they only have half the ingredients I was hoping for. This time was no different so I had to change things up on the fly (or wait to brew until I could get my original ingredients, but I might not have time again until the end of July...and I haven't brewed anything since March!)

I had originally wanted to get one of the White Lab Saison strains, but this place had none of them. Not really sure what to do, I picked up a vial of the French Ale yeast (wlp072) and a vial of the Brettanomyces bruxellensis trois strain (wlp644).

My original thought was that I would just pitch both vials. However, upon further investigation, I'm intrigued by the thought of doing a 100% Brett beer with this strain. BUT, I don't have time to wait the 7 days that folks seem to recommend to make a starter for a 100% Brett beer. I've got the starter going now and I figure I can give it a few days (I can brew tomorrow, Sunday, and not pitch until Monday evening or Tuesday morning when I leave for a few days of vacation), but that's as long as I can wait.

So, here are my thoughts about possible options:
1) Let the Brett starter go for 48-60 hours and just pitch it even though it probably hasn't been given enough time

2) Let the Brett starter go for 48-60 hours and pitch it along with the vial of French Ale yeast. At least then I would probably have an adequate cell count between the two.

3) Pitch the French Ale yeast (I can make up another starter) first and then pitch the Brett when I get back from vacation on Friday.

4) other suggestions?

Any and all input would be appreciated! :mug:
 
No expierence with this. So take this with as a grain of sand. Option two sounds the best. My advice, post this in the wild/lambic brewing section lmao.
 
I'd go w/ option 3 for understated Brett character or just pitch the vial straight in. I've been reading & listening to a lot of Brett stuff lately in preparation for my 1st Brett adventure, and I've heard many people say to under pitch Brett to get more character.

FWIW, I've got 2 batches of Triple fermenting w/ regular ale yeasts. They both smell amazing but I'll take the less amazing (or maybe less attenuated?) one and add Brett brux for secondary or maybe bottle condition/priming. Then after seeing the outcome I'll move on to 100% Brett fermentation.

I hope you'll post you plan & results!
 
I'd go w/ option 3 for understated Brett character or just pitch the vial straight in. I've been reading & listening to a lot of Brett stuff lately in preparation for my 1st Brett adventure, and I've heard many people say to under pitch Brett to get more character.

I don't have tons of experience with Brett and have never done a 100% Brett beer, but from what I understand underpitching is good -unless- you're doing a 100% Brett fermentation. I've always heard that a nice big starter is best for that. Hopefully some others with more experience will chime in here soon.
 
I typically pitch when the starter is at high krausen, so one 18-36 hours is probably ideal.
 
lowtones84 said:
I don't have tons of experience with Brett and have never done a 100% Brett beer, but from what I understand underpitching is good -unless- you're doing a 100% Brett fermentation. I've always heard that a nice big starter is best for that. Hopefully some others with more experience will chime in here soon.

Yes, this is my understanding as well. I've heard for 100% Brett beers you should pitch lager-level cell counts.

gmcastil said:
I typically pitch when the starter is at high krausen, so one 18-36 hours is probably ideal.

Is this your experience with Brett starters? The issue I have is that the vial of Brett is packed with a considerably lower cell count. Add this to the lager-level counts needed and you have the reason why people let their Brett starters go for 7 days, and maybe even with stepping it up once.

This is my first attempt at 100% Brett so I have no direct experience with this. All that said, my Brett starter looks amazing this morning.
 
JLem said:
Yes, this is my understanding as well. I've heard for 100% Brett beers you should pitch lager-level cell counts.

This is good to know! Like I said, I'm just getting into the Brett world.

JLem said:
Is this your experience with Brett starters? The issue I have is that the vial of Brett is packed with a considerably lower cell count. Add this to the lager-level counts needed and you have the reason why people let their Brett starters go for 7 days, and maybe even with stepping it up once.

according to the little I've read/heard so far, Brett has a growth phase, then a 2-day-ish lag phase, then another 2-day-ish growth phase... So to get full cell count you're looking for, it sounds like 7 days is about right for a 100% Brett starter
 
Only done one Brett beer, pitched the Sacc (starter) and the Brett (no starter) at the same time. I'm told the Sacc will get a majority of the fermentation done then the Brett will pick up and eat everything else. Beer came out excellent....good luck with yours.
 
If you underpitch brett like that, you're going to sit on that beer for months, maybe more. Brett needs a huge volume to act as a primary fermenter. You can't rush the starter.

Pitch the sacc and if you want the brett character, pitch the brett with it or after primary fermentation ends.
 
Or pitch the Brett vial because you have a small window to brew, then build up a starter over a week etc of it from another vial. Problem solved. You might even stumble into a best practice way of doing it.
 
First, a 100% brett beer will be a lot cleaner than you think - the characteristic brett flavors will a lot more prominent if you pitch the brett with or after the sacc strain. Unfortunately, it will take a while for these flavors to develop. A Boulevard brewer said at around 8 months their Saison Brett hits its stride (they pitch it at bottling, and it's the brett brux strain from what I've read). Also, if you are going brett 100%, your starter/pitching rate needs to be about 4 times the size of a sacc strain's...this could take a while to build up.

Honestly, when I made my first 100% brett beer I was underwhelmed, it came out pretty darn clean, and even a year+ later, nothing much has changed. So I would agree with Reverse, pitch the brett at or after primary fermentation with the sacc strain.
 
First, a 100% brett beer will be a lot cleaner than you think - the characteristic brett flavors will a lot more prominent if you pitch the brett with or after the sacc strain. Unfortunately, it will take a while for these flavors to develop. A Boulevard brewer said at around 8 months their Saison Brett hits its stride (they pitch it at bottling, and it's the brett brux strain from what I've read). Also, if you are going brett 100%, your starter/pitching rate needs to be about 4 times the size of a sacc strain's...this could take a while to build up.

Honestly, when I made my first 100% brett beer I was underwhelmed, it came out pretty darn clean, and even a year+ later, nothing much has changed. So I would agree with Reverse, pitch the brett at or after primary fermentation with the sacc strain.

It seems you need to ferment at higher temperatures (depending on the strain) to get more fruity flavors out of the yeast but at lower temperatures it is surprisingly clean.
 
skibb said:
First, a 100% brett beer will be a lot cleaner than you think - the characteristic brett flavors will a lot more prominent if you pitch the brett with or after the sacc strain. Unfortunately, it will take a while for these flavors to develop. A Boulevard brewer said at around 8 months their Saison Brett hits its stride (they pitch it at bottling, and it's the brett brux strain from what I've read). Also, if you are going brett 100%, your starter/pitching rate needs to be about 4 times the size of a sacc strain's...this could take a while to build up.

Honestly, when I made my first 100% brett beer I was underwhelmed, it came out pretty darn clean, and even a year+ later, nothing much has changed. So I would agree with Reverse, pitch the brett at or after primary fermentation with the sacc strain.

This is actually why I am doing a 100% Brett fermentation - I'm not looking for the stereotypical funky, barnyard etc associated with a secondary pitch of Brett. Brett as a primary strain has it's own set of flavors and aromas - passionfruit, pineapple, citrus, general tropical fruit - and this is what I am after. I am not looking to make a "Brett beer" as it is usually understood. My inspiration for this is the Crooked Stave project by Chad Yacobsen and his article in a recent Zymurgy.

I brewed the base beer last night and will likely just pitch the Brett starter this evening or tomorrow morning. This whole batch is experimental, so I might as well just go for it :)
 
It seems you need to ferment at higher temperatures (depending on the strain) to get more fruity flavors out of the yeast but at lower temperatures it is surprisingly clean.

That makes sense, just like any other yeast I suppose! Stress it out and see what it's really made of :)

Looking at my notes I fermented the brett in the mid 70's - It was the Brett C strain from White Labs. As far as my flavor profile: Very slight pineapple flavors along with a little cedar/woodiness. Not tart or sour at all (most brett are not on their own from what I've read) and it finished really clean and quite refreshing. Base beer was a 20 IBU weizen.

This whole batch is experimental, so I might as well just go for it

Very true! Have fun with it, and please report your results!
 
i brewed a 100% brett brux beer and did not make a starter, just the smack pack. it did not take months to take off, 2-3 days, and it finished within the 7-10 days clean yeasts usually do.
 
how big of a starter did you end up doing? this strain worked very fast for me. without a stirplate, I stepped up from 0.5L (krausen in about 12 hours) to 3L over 4 days, decanted and pitched into a blond (3gal, 1.063) and it ripped thru it in 2 days
 
So, I went ahead with this beer. Brewed a 3.75ish gallon batch of 1.045ish wort (recipe below) late Sunday night. I made a 1L starter of the wlp644 (Brettanomyces bruxellensis Trois) the day before and pitched it late last night, so it had about 2.5 days to grow. The starter really took off and acted pretty much like a normal Sacc. starter and was clearly winding down by the time I pitched it. The air lock is bubbling slowly this morning, so I am optimistic that this will work out OK. Thanks for all the advice, comments, suggestions, info...even if I went forward with what I wanted to do anyway, this forum is awesome for getting feedback and "talking through" ideas, which is what I think I needed in this case. :mug:

For those interested, here's the recipe I used. I was going for a rustic saison/farmhouse style and wanted to try something different. Please note that this is for a 3.75 gallons batch:

2.5 lbs Pilsner malt
2.5 lbs Pale ale malt
1 lbs raw unmalted spelt
1 lbs raw unmalted red wheat
0.5 lbs raw red quinoa
(cereal mash with the raw grains and 1 lb of the malted barley; added to the main mash)

hops
7 g Magnum @60 min
10 g Saaz/EKG mix (I didn't have enough Saaz) @15min
20 g NZ Motueka @1 min
 
FWIW I brewed my first ever 100% brett saison this past weekend too. I wasn't planning on brewing but I'd asked m LHBS to order a vial of WLP644 for me. It came in on Friday so I figured I might as well brew.

I picked up one vial around noon, made a 1L starter on my stir plate late Friday afternoon, then late Sunday afternoon I pitched it into five gallons of my 1.079 saison. Started out at 72F and by Monday afternoon krausen had pushed up through the airlock. It may not be typical of other 100% brett fermentations, but in my experience WLP644 seems to be a very quick starter and a very active yeast.
 
FWIW I brewed my first ever 100% brett saison this past weekend too. I wasn't planning on brewing but I'd asked m LHBS to order a vial of WLP644 for me. It came in on Friday so I figured I might as well brew.

I picked up one vial around noon, made a 1L starter on my stir plate late Friday afternoon, then late Sunday afternoon I pitched it into five gallons of my 1.079 saison. Started out at 72F and by Monday afternoon krausen had pushed up through the airlock. It may not be typical of other 100% brett fermentations, but in my experience WLP644 seems to be a very quick starter and a very active yeast.

This meshes with what I saw in the starter and the fact that fermentation took off in under 12 hours. I'm about to head out for a few days of vacation, so I guess I'll see how things go at the end of the week.
 
Well, I checked the gravity yesterday and it was at 1.020. I know it's only been 5 days, but I was hoping for lower to alleviate my concerns about pitching a "young" Brett starter and the fact that I overshot my sacch. rest temp when I added the cereal mash to the main mash. I did get it cooled off relatively quickly by adding some extra bottled water I had around, but I'm still worried that I ended up with a bunch of lover-chained sugars in there. I know the Brett will eat through those as well, but it will be a much longer process.

I'll check things again in a week or so. I might wrap a heating pad to the bucket too to ramp up the temp some (currently ambient temp is 70F).

Sample tasted great. Tons of tropical fruit aroma and flavor. Hopefully this one finishes out well.
 
We have a thread going in the Wild forum about experiences with the Trios yeast. You should post or link this over there (I'm on mobile) so everyone can see this!

Cheers!
 

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