Three Philosophers clone help

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eulipion2

eulipion2

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So I'm wanting to brew up a Three Philosophers clone based on the guidelines given in Brew Like A Monk:

Belgian Pale 62%
Belgian Munich 16%
Flaked Wheat 6%
Special 'B' 4%
CaraMunich 3%
CaraVienne 2%
Sucrose 7% (syrup)

Northern Brewer 7.5 AA, 75 min, 30-35 IBU

O.G. 1.089

Wyeast 3787

Working with BrewTarget, I eventually settled in on this:
11.25 lb Belgian Pale = 63.6%
2.75 lb Munich Malt = 15.5%
1 lb Flaked Wheat = 5.6%
10 oz Special 'B' = 3.5%
8 oz CaraMunich = 2.8%
5 oz CaraVienne = 1.8%
1.25 lb Sucrose = 7.1%

1.5 oz Norther Brewer (9 AAU), 75 minutes, about 33 IBU
Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity

F.G. = 1.021
ABV = 8.6%

I know some of the percentages are slightly off, but it's easier than doing fractions of an ounce here and there. Does this look good?

I need some help with the mash though. I'm thinking about 150 for 90 minutes, though I'm pretty sure it should dry out more - BeerAdvocate lists the ABV as 9.8%. Should I mash lower, say 145? I'm shooting for 1.33 qt/lb, and a 75 minute boil. Should I thicken that up, say 1.25 qt/lb?

Also, I will be doing this via Brew-in-a-Bag and No-Chill, so do I need to make any adjustments aside from the hop addition time?

Thanks in advance!
 
Okay, I double-checked Brew Like A Monk (my previous post was from notes I took so I wouldn't have to reference the book), and it says this:

OG 1.087
FG 1.020
IBU 30-35

Mash 154º, Boil 75 min

Trying to get a little bit closer to the 9.8% ABV, I bumped up my grains a little:
Belgian Pale 12 lb = 62.3%
Belgian Munich 3 lb = 15.6%
Flaked Wheat 19 oz = 6.2%
Special 'B' 12 oz = 3.9%
CaraMunich 10 oz = 3.2%
CaraVienne 6 oz = 1.9%
Sucrose 21 oz = 6.8%

which gives me

O.G. = 1.095
F.G. = 1.023
ABV = 9.3
IBU = 31.5
SRM = 18.2
BU/GU = .33

I'm still concerned about mashing so high. It's been a while since I've tried this beer (I've been keeping them for cellaring!), and while I know it should finish a little sweet, 1.023 seems a little high. Thoughts?
 
This has been sitting there for a while - Saw your post and wondered if you made the Three Philosophers.

Thinking of brewing it.
 
Sadly no, I haven't brewed it yet. I've switched to Brew-In-A-Bag and No-Chill, and I want to get my process worked out with smaller (cheaper) before I attempt a beer as potentially expensive as this. That said, I think I've figured out the amounts for a five gallon recipe:
Belgian Pale 12 lb = 192 oz = 61.9%
Belgian Munich 3 lb 2 oz = 50 oz = 16.1%
Flaked Wheat 1.188 lb = 19 oz = 6.1%
Special 'B' .75 lb = 12 oz = 3.9%
CaraMunich .5625 lb = 9 oz = 2.9% AKA Cara 45
CaraVienne .375 lb = 6 oz = 1.9% AKA Cara 20
Sucrose 1.375 = 22 oz = 7.1%
1.5 oz Northern Brewer pellet hops, 9 AAU, 75 min (55 min for no-chill)
Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity yeast
1 12oz bottle Kriek beer (Ommegang uses Liefmann's I think), added in either tertiary or in the bottling bucket.

O.G. = 1.095
F.G. = 1.023
ABV = 9.3
IBU = 31.5
SRM = 18.2
BU/GU = .33
Calories = 354 per 12 oz

Mash: 154ºF, 9.57 gallons of water (BIAB)
Boil: 75 min

Add sugar after primary (3 days), transfer to secondary (3 weeks), transfer to tertiary, then bottle with dextrose and fresh yeast.
Click to expand...

Gravities, ABV, etc. are for the beer BEFORE the kriek is added.
 
That seems like an awfully large amount of grains for brew-in-a-bag. How big is your bag and how big is your pot? I guess you must have at least a 10 gallon pot if you are boiling 9.57 gallons. If I were doing this, I'd convert it to a partial mash by replacing all but 2 lbs or so of the belgian pale with DME but that's just me.

Otherwise, the recipe looks great. Let us know how it turns out.

Why wait to add the sugar? And why not more sugar so you can hit your target ABV (which is about 10% if I remember correctly). I just made an Ommegang Abbey Ale (a very strong dubbel) and I used 2.5lbs of sugar in it to reach ~8.0% ABV.

I used Wyeast 1214 and had no problem hitting my target SG in only 3 days of fermentation. (starting was like 1.079. ending was 1.014).

I recommend culturing Ommegang's yeast. They have some good yeast that is great with high gravity beers. They use the same yeast in everything so I'd get it from their abbey ale instead of three philosophers just so whatever yeast the kriek uses doesn't interfere.
 
gio said:
That seems like an awfully large amount of grains for brew-in-a-bag. How big is your bag and how big is your pot? I guess you must have at least a 10 gallon pot if you are boiling 9.57 gallons. If I were doing this, I'd convert it to a partial mash by replacing all but 2 lbs or so of the belgian pale with DME but that's just me.
Click to expand...
I use a 17.5 gallon kettle with a bag that fits inside the strainer insert that came with the kettle. That way I don't have to worry about the grain bag ripping and spilling into the wort.
mash11.jpg



gio said:
Why wait to add the sugar? And why not more sugar so you can hit your target ABV (which is about 10% if I remember correctly). I just made an Ommegang Abbey Ale (a very strong dubbel) and I used 2.5lbs of sugar in it to reach ~8.0% ABV.
Click to expand...
I forget where I read to do that, probably from Brew Like a Monk, but I think the reason is to allow the yeast to work without becoming stressed by higher gravity.

gio said:
I recommend culturing Ommegang's yeast. They have some good yeast that is great with high gravity beers. They use the same yeast in everything so I'd get it from their abbey ale instead of three philosophers just so whatever yeast the kriek uses doesn't interfere.
Click to expand...
Smack packs are easier. I don't really have decent culturing equipment. I'm planning on swirling the kriek to get the yeast into the brew - I want it to get funkier as it ages. Not sure if that's what they do, or if they use a pasteurized kriek, but I like the funk.
 
I was wondering if anyone could tell me how this turned out? Was it close?
I'd love to brew this and may do a 1 gallon batch just to try it. I've never done that so I'll have to figure out how to scale it.
 
I've been really digging Three Philosophers lately (and Quads in general).

FWIW there was a post awhile ago from somebody who had worked at Ommegang with some info on each of the beers. Here's the Three Philisopher notes I recorded:

Three Philosopher's: No spices but infused with a kriek; Columbus and Sterling hops; Pilsner malt, amber malt, caramel malt; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast

Here's the rest if you're interested... I'm too lazy to go find the original post at this point to give credit:

Abbey Ale: Sweet orange peel, coriander, cumin, and star anise...hops are columbus and styrian goldings

Hennepin: spiced with coriander, sweet orange peel, ginger, and grains of paradise; Columbus and Czech Saaz hops; Pils malt, pale malt, and corn; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast

Rare Vos: coriander, sweet orange peel, grains of paradise; Columbus hops; Pilsner malt, wheat, aroma and caramel; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast

Witte: coriander and sweet orange peel; Columbus and Czech Saaz hops; Pils malt, malted and unmalted white wheat, oat flakes; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast
 
Well I'm definately going to do some one gallon batches. I haven't done any AG myself but I have done a couple of partial mashes and it's given me the confidence that I can do a small AG batch. I recently picked up a couple of 2 gal fermenting buckets so I should be set for equipment.
 
TwoGunz said:
Three Philosopher's: No spices but infused with a kriek; Columbus and Sterling hops; Pilsner malt, amber malt, caramel malt; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast
Click to expand...

Are those the hops they use now? Brew Like A Monk listed Northern Brewer, but I know these things change from time to time. Would like to stay current. :mug:
 
eulipion2 said:
Are those the hops they use now? Brew Like A Monk listed Northern Brewer, but I know these things change from time to time. Would like to stay current. :mug:
Click to expand...

I don't know. I'm just passing along what I read on here. I'll see if I can find the thread.
 
There was a Brew Strong episode where they interviewed Randy Thiel who used to be the brewmaster at Brewery Ommegang. He spoke about all their beers(at that time) and also about taking a Lindeman's Kriek and refermenting it.
 
Sadly I still haven't brewed it yet. It's been "On-deck" in my sig for months now. I need to brew another batch to empty out the propane cylinder so I can get a fresh one for my Christmas Day RIS brew, so this might be happening sooner than I thought.
 
I saw a reference in another thread about it, but i couldn't determine if it was confirmed or not: is the Lindemann's pasteurized?

I'm interested in any follow-up to this, as the reference to "Columbus and Sterling hops; Pilsner malt, amber malt, caramel malt" seems somewhat contradictory to the original posting of this recipe.
 
logan3825 said:
There was a Brew Strong episode where they interviewed Randy Thiel who used to be the brewmaster at Brewery Ommegang. He spoke about all their beers(at that time) and also about taking a Lindeman's Kriek and refermenting it.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily with the Three Philosophers, but has anyone tried using a kreik for infusion in this manner? I was listening to that Sunday Session and Randy stated that they use the kreik "in the brewhouse". I'm just wondering at what point in the process it's used - added prior to pitching, added after primary fermentation, etc.
 
cactusgarrett said:
I saw a reference in another thread about it, but i couldn't determine if it was confirmed or not: is the Lindemann's pasteurized?

I'm interested in any follow-up to this, as the reference to "Columbus and Sterling hops; Pilsner malt, amber malt, caramel malt" seems somewhat contradictory to the original posting of this recipe.
Click to expand...

This was my thread. I emailed the brewery and they confirmed that regular Lindeman's Kriek is pasteurized, but other versions are not. From the brewery:

We would like to thank you for your interest in our brewery.
The Lindemans cherry Kriek (sweet) is indeed pasteurized.
However, the old Lindemans Cuvée René Kriek (more sour) isn’t pasteurized.

I've got a dubbel sitting on some now, I added it into secondary.
 
cactusgarrett said:
Not necessarily with the Three Philosophers, but has anyone tried using a kreik for infusion in this manner? I was listening to that Sunday Session and Randy stated that they use the kreik "in the brewhouse". I'm just wondering at what point in the process it's used - added prior to pitching, added after primary fermentation, etc.
Click to expand...

Revisiting this, as i plan on brewing a 3P clone soon. Anyone have any info on timing of kreik additions?
 
TwoGunz said:
Three Philosopher's: No spices but infused with a kriek; Columbus and Sterling hops; Pilsner malt, amber malt, caramel malt; Saccharomyces Cerevisiae yeast
Click to expand...

I love me some 3Ps. I'd like to try something like this as a partial grain extract brew. Any thoughts on steeping some caramel grains with a combination of pilsen and amber malt extracts? Also, any idea where to get this type of yeast? Northern had some but they list it as sold out.
 
dmoore714 said:
I love me some 3Ps. I'd like to try something like this as a partial grain extract brew. Any thoughts on steeping some caramel grains with a combination of pilsen and amber malt extracts? Also, any idea where to get this type of yeast? Northern had some but they list it as sold out.
Click to expand...

You could harvest it from a couple of bottles. I haven't done it but it doesn't look any harder than wash yeast.
 
tbel said:
You could harvest it from a couple of bottles. I haven't done it but it doesn't look any harder than wash yeast.
Click to expand...

You can harvest yeast from storebought beer? How so?

Also, any suggestions on the appropriate mix of malt extracts and grains (how much of each listed above) for a partial grain extract version of 3P? And how much kriek should I add for a 5gallon batch?
 
From a brewery visit the mash was as follows:
45*C - 5 minutes - 113F
60*C - 40 minutes - 140F
68*C - 20 minutes - 154.4F
74*C - Mash off - 165F

Was the same for the Rare Vos, Hennepin, Abbey, and 3 Phils

Dying to get my rims set up so I can get some solid step mashes in and try the 3 Phils at some point.
 
This is an old thread but I'll add to it for posterity. Stardate -310506 (used an online calculator).
Attempted to brew a Rare Vos clone 8 weeks ago. After 4 weeks primary with WLP510, and then 2 weeks secondary with Brett C I bottled. 2 weeks out, after bottling with dry Champagne yeast, my brew tastes faintly familiar to the 3P that I am now consuming. For those who read this, realize that getting a vial of WLP510, which comes out once yearly, is in your best interests. Over.
 
JoeLindley said:
This is an old thread but I'll add to it for posterity. Stardate -310506 (used an online calculator).
Attempted to brew a Rare Vos clone 8 weeks ago. After 4 weeks primary with WLP510, and then 2 weeks secondary with Brett C I bottled. 2 weeks out, after bottling with dry Champagne yeast, my brew tastes faintly familiar to the 3P that I am now consuming. For those who read this, realize that getting a vial of WLP510, which comes out once yearly, is in your best interests. Over.
Click to expand...

This is a really puzzling post.

Why are you using Brett C in a Rare Vos clone attempt?

Rare Vos and 3P aren't too similar in flavor. Did you use a Kriek in your Rare Vos clone attempt?
 
It was an evolution kind of thing. WLP510 is the yeast for Orval and Rare Vos. So...I thought I would Brett-ify my Rare Vos clone and see if I came out somewhere around Orval. I gave up on Orval after a few weeks. As far as the flavor goes it was really amazing. Tremendously fruity with dark fruits, cocoa, etc. Not much Brett, as to be expected in short amount of time. I washed the yeast from secondary, thinking it would be primarily 510 from the taste and made a singel. I was surprised that the flavor of the singel/enkel was so mild. Since then, I have dry hopped a Chouffe clone with Citra hops and this has a great flavor. I think I will also dry hop my enkel with Citra and see what it is like. I am new to this stuff.
 
JoeLindley said:
It was an evolution kind of thing. WLP510 is the yeast for Orval and Rare Vos. So...I thought I would Brett-ify my Rare Vos clone and see if I came out somewhere around Orval. I gave up on Orval after a few weeks. As far as the flavor goes it was really amazing. Tremendously fruity with dark fruits, cocoa, etc. Not much Brett, as to be expected in short amount of time. I washed the yeast from secondary, thinking it would be primarily 510 from the taste and made a singel. I was surprised that the flavor of the singel/enkel was so mild. Since then, I have dry hopped a Chouffe clone with Citra hops and this has a great flavor. I think I will also dry hop my enkel with Citra and see what it is like. I am new to this stuff.
Click to expand...



Brett C produces a mild sour/rotten pineapple note, mostly in the aroma. I don't detect it in any of the beers ITT.

Orval uses Brett B which is a leathery/horsey aroma and flavor.

And L'Chouffe doesn't use Citra. :mad:

I admire your quest to duplicate stellar Belgians, but you are creating something quite different from the originals which I hope are all happy accidents. :tank:
 
MisterTipsy said:
And L'Chouffe doesn't use Citra. :mad:

I admire your quest to duplicate stellar Belgians, but you are creating something quite different from the originals which I hope are all happy accidents. :tank:
Click to expand...

I went with the Citra just to give it a try, like Duvel did in their 2012 Tripel Hop. It turned out great. I'll try for a straight L'Chouffe again.
 
MisterTipsy said:
Brett C produces a mild sour/rotten pineapple note, mostly in the aroma. I don't detect it in any of the beers ITT.

Orval uses Brett B which is a leathery/horsey aroma and flavor. :tank:
Click to expand...

That was a typo on the Brett C. It was Wyeast 5112 Brett B. The enkel I'm making with the washed yeast of it smells/tastes slightly pineapplish, but I guess that's the difference between using it in primary and secondary.

Sorry to hijack this thread. Didn't mean to. Back to the WLP510. That's the one to get when you can for 3P.
 
Not sure how we stepped over to Brett on this thread... but just wanted to clarify a couple things. First of all, 3P doesn't use Lindemans, they use Liefmans Kriek. For hops, I can't detect the Columbus/Sterling profile at all, and Ommegang says they use Spalt Select and Styrian Goldings. Gonna brew this soon. I'll let you know this winter how it is.
 
Like so many threads that start off good... no results... hijacked...nothing. :(
 
So much for "Hope and Change" eh? :p Good luck out there. I know it can be difficult to get a job right now. I was surely thinking that between 2010 and now that someone had tempted to have brewed this. I guess not.
 

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