Brown Ale with S-04 yeast...bitter/nutty/nasty! What happened?

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Jayhem

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HELP!

Brewed 11 gallons of this recipe (New Castle Style English Brown) and for some reason it has a nutty and bitter aftertaste that almost makes it undrinkable. I have poured out the last few ounces of the last 2 pints I had! I bottled conditioned for 3 weeks @ 70F at this point and just tried a couple last night.

Recipe was:
66% 2-Row pale
11% flaked corn
5% C-20
5% C-60
5% C-80
4% Pale Chocolate malt
3% Cara-Pils

Target Hops @ 60 min and EKG hops @ 15 for 24 IBU based on my calculator for boil volumes.

S-04 yeast with 2L starter

Mashed at 156F (for a maltier profile)

IBU target of 24

I am always careful on sanitation, never had an issue on 15 batches I've done so far.

I used S04 dry yeast with a 2 Liter starter and pitched the thick yeast slurry from the starter (1/2 cup to each 5.5 gallon fermenter).

I aerated by shaking the fermenter vigorously before and after adding the yeast slurry.

I sanitize using Starsan and soak anything that will contact my beer in a tub of Starsan.

I really don't think contamination is to blame.

I ferment in a chest freezer using a digital temperature control and the beer temp was in the mid 60's for the entire 21 day fermentation and I didn't bottle until day 28 in primary.

I have no idea what happened or why it tastes like this. I can't really describe the taste but all I can think is that it is very "nutty" and "bitter" with a hint of chocolate with an aftertaste that lingers for several seconds. I would not describe the aftertaste as "sour", more harsh/bitter and not a hop-bitter.

I have 105 bottles of this stuff left and the only thing I can think to do is let it sit in the basement at 70F for another couple months and hope it becomes at least drinkable. I wish I could let a more experienced brewer try a taste of this to give an opinion on what it could be. This is my very first batch that is not good. On my drinkability scale this one is currently around a 3/10. :(

:confused::(:eek:
 
Sounds about par for the course when using S-04. :D

Seriously though, this yeast can be downright vile tasting when fermented warm (66F+) and that's probably what happened. Even with temp control, a big and fast fermentation can get pretty warm.

When I was using this yeast, my beers never seemed to get better tasting once they had this flavor. Maybe your beer is still a bit young?
 
Sounds about par for the course when using S-04. :D

Seriously though, this yeast can be downright vile tasting when fermented warm (66F+) and that's probably what happened. Even with temp control, a big and fast fermentation can get pretty warm.

When I was using this yeast, my beers never seemed to get better tasting once they had this flavor. Maybe your beer is still a bit young?

Only 3 weeks since I bottled.

My process was good the only difference with this beer is it was my first time using S-04. The beer never got over 67F during active fermentation and I kept my ambient air temp in the freezer at 60F. What compound does S-04 produce if fermented on the warm side? I can't imagine 67F being too warm for this ale yeast as I've read plenty of recipes where brewers mention fermenting with S-04 in the mid-high 60's with no problems.
 
I'm an Extract brewer and I've had this problem with S-04 , although my batches were

always brewed at 66 F .

I used to let it ferment in the Primary for 3-4 Weeks and then bottle .

I brewed a small batch ( Partial Mash , for the first time ) in the past Summer and as always used S-04 , but this time I let it ferment for 1 Week in the Primary and then 2 Weeks in the Secondary .

At the end , it was the first drinkable Beer I've ever made ( using S-04 ) .

There was no nasty after-taste .

Hector
 
I have had this problem with s-04 as well. It gives me a mixure of bread dough and a rubbery/bitter aftertaste. I have only experienced this with s-04.
 
I'm an Extract brewer and I've had this problem with S-04 , although my batches were

always brewed at 66 F .

I used to let it ferment in the Primary for 3-4 Weeks and then bottle .

I brewed a small batch ( Partial Mash , for the first time ) in the past Summer and as always used S-04 , but this time I let it ferment for 1 Week in the Primary and then 2 Weeks in the Secondary .

At the end , it was the first drinkable Beer I've ever made ( using S-04 ) .

There was no nasty after-taste .

Hector

Oh no!!!!!! I have a bitter fermenting right now that I started on Sunday using this yeast. Man I hope this batch isn't crap! It's my first all grain beer, a 2.5 gallon batch. I think I will transfer to the secondary at the end of the week. Maybe leaving it in primary longer is what creates the off flavors. I hope that is it.
 
I know people say that S04 is a great yeast when fermented at lower temps, but I've had so many batches ruined by this strain that I refuse to use it. I won't use its liquid equivalent (Wyeast 1099) either, because it has given off the exact same aftertaste as S04, and I can't stand it.

I've stuck with US05, and I am much happier for it.
 
Rant Warning: Arg People Ales ferment warm! When people start talking about not liking an ale yeast because they fermented above 65 I scream stop making ales if you don't like them! If you are fermenting s-04 at 65 you are right at the bottom of its temp range and will likely get unintended flavours from that. This is the fault of American Craft brewers who use 'clean' lager like american ale yeasts that the rest of the world thinks are lager yeasts because there are no ale flavours because yah they fermented the damn stuff a temps better suited for serving ale not fermenting it. They do this to get as many macro lager drinkers over to them as possible not because the product is better. Its all marketing, not proper beer style.

Best bet for dry yeast is to shoot for mid temp range which for safale s-04 is 70F (65-75 is what the manu lists on the package). If you have off flavours its from something else. Rubbery is normally chlorine type water chemicals. S-04 should give you a warm bready slightly minerally finish characteristic of English ales. If that not what you wanted you used the wrong yeast.


Also most brown ales have a nutty flavour, the chocolate malt does that
 
That's why I chose this yeast for my current batch. I am fermenting a Best Bitter and wanted an English Ale flavor profile.
 
In addition to the temperature suggestion, making a starter w/ dry yeast is a no no. Better to pitch additional packs; rubbery flavors could also be autolysis. Ive had good luck w/ 04 @ 68F as well as 1098.
 
So it seems my fermentation temps of 65-67F for the S-04 yeast was ok. Not sure what caused this but it will be difficult for me to use S-04 again. I've always used Notty and US-05 as my primary ale strains and never had any off flavors with those.
 
Your nut brown ale is nutty? Sounds like something is wrong lol

Seriously though, I have not had these bad experiences people talk about with SA-04. In fact, I did 10 gallons of a mild with it and it really came out great.
 
Your nut brown ale is nutty? Sounds like something is wrong lol

Seriously though, I have not had these bad experiences people talk about with SA-04. In fact, I did 10 gallons of a mild with it and it really came out great.

I wish it was just "nutty" in flavor. This is something much different. Almost a chemical like aftertaste that just makes it not fun to drink. Never had anything like this and I used the same water, processes and ingredient quality I have been using for the last 15 successful batches. The only variable here is the yeast.
 
I hope for your sake time fixes er up.

But just to put it out there, I use S-04 quite regularly fermented mid to upper 60's and don't have any issues. In fact Im drinking a Newcastle clone now with the same hops but a different grain bill. I will say that's a lot of crystal you got in there. Ive got crystal + chocolate total as 10.5%.

But I digress, I've never experienced the issues other people find with S-04. THat's all I wanted to say really.
 
I don't see the O.G. or F.G. listed anywhere. What were these?

Just a thought based on your recipe: With the fairly high portion of crystal/chocolate in your grist, and the high (ish) mash temp, perhaps the FG was higher than expected, which could make the taste a bit more syrupy, (some say cough medicine). You also have a bit of corn in there which at higher mash temps in higher proportions can cause extra sweetness.

There is also the possibility that you mutated the yeast a bit during the starter process. Dry yeast isn't really meant for starters - the packet contains lots of nutrients meant for re-hydrating in plain water. Throwing the contents of the packet directly in a starter or a beer can render 60% or so of the yeast cells unusable (either dead any/or they may just mutate a bit). I know many people just sprinkle the yeast on top of the fermenter (I've done it) but after reading a bit on this from some of the dry yeast manufacturers, you get much higher cell counts and fewer mutations by re-hydrating first.
 
I don't see the O.G. or F.G. listed anywhere. What were these?

Just a thought based on your recipe: With the fairly high portion of crystal/chocolate in your grist, and the high (ish) mash temp, perhaps the FG was higher than expected, which could make the taste a bit more syrupy, (some say cough medicine). You also have a bit of corn in there which at higher mash temps in higher proportions can cause extra sweetness.

There is also the possibility that you mutated the yeast a bit during the starter process. Dry yeast isn't really meant for starters - the packet contains lots of nutrients meant for re-hydrating in plain water. Throwing the contents of the packet directly in a starter or a beer can render 60% or so of the yeast cells unusable (either dead any/or they may just mutate a bit). I know many people just sprinkle the yeast on top of the fermenter (I've done it) but after reading a bit on this from some of the dry yeast manufacturers, you get much higher cell counts and fewer mutations by re-hydrating first.

This may have something to do with it. I did not know that dry yeast could not be used in a starter to grow cell counts before pitching. I had good yeast activity for the first 3 days and then it just died off. I was still at 1.019 after 14 days of fermentation...had to wait 21 days to finish to 1.014.

Here are the SG's I measured @ 65F.

OG: 1.044

FG: 1.014
 
Has the beer been in the fridge long enough for the SO4 to drop completely crystal clear? I have found extra bitterness from SO4 while the beer is still a bit hazy.
 
Nut flavor in brown = all good. Take a look at the "Not a big fan of the S-04" thread. Its got lots of yeast related experiences like this in there. I made a brown and then a scotch ale from S-04. The brown was fermented 65-68 and has some sour twang to it. I'm not a big fan, but its only been carbonated for 3-4 weeks now, so I haven't given up hope.

The Scotch ale was fermented very cool, more in the 62 - 63 range and I detect none of those off flavors in the hydrometer samples. My fingers are crossed on that one as it will sit for another month or two in secondary before I bottle it.

I saved some S-04 yeast from the brown but just dumped it the other day. Not my yeast I guess. I will move onto other English yeast strains.
 
I am pretty sure all 11 gram packets of dry yeast are good for a 5 gallon batch up to 1.060 so a starter, even if a good idea, was unnecessary for your beer at 1.044.
 
This may have something to do with it. I did not know that dry yeast could not be used in a starter to grow cell counts before pitching. I had good yeast activity for the first 3 days and then it just died off. I was still at 1.019 after 14 days of fermentation...had to wait 21 days to finish to 1.014.

Here are the SG's I measured @ 65F.

OG: 1.044

FG: 1.014

1.014 seems a bit high for an o.g. of 1.044 - that makes for 67% attenuation. That means a sweeter beer which in turn can make for some variables depending on what fermented and what did not. It's still beer and it may improve with time. A 21 day fermentation for a beer with an og of 1.044 is longer than usual and points to stressed out or otherwise non performing yeast.

I may have come off a bit too harsh on the issue of making starters for dry yeast. You still end up with beer and the instructions say you can do that, but several very seasoned brewers at my club (including a microbiologist) are very keen on simply re hydrating rather than sprinkling or throwing it into a starter. In theory, you could pitch re-hydrated yeast in to a starter and build it up from there but for my $3.50, I'd just assume buy another packet of yeast. You can use a stir play to do the re-hydrating if you like.
 
Has the beer been in the fridge long enough for the SO4 to drop completely crystal clear? I have found extra bitterness from SO4 while the beer is still a bit hazy.
That could have something to do with it...the 2 bottles I tried had only been in refrigeration for 2 days. Maybe a week or 2 in the fridge would help but I still think I just need to age these another month as they have only been bottled for 3 weeks.

1.014 seems a bit high for an o.g. of 1.044 - that makes for 67% attenuation. That means a sweeter beer which in turn can make for some variables depending on what fermented and what did not. It's still beer and it may improve with time. A 21 day fermentation for a beer with an og of 1.044 is longer than usual and points to stressed out or otherwise non performing yeast.

I wanted a malty/sweet brown ale which is why I mashed at 157F and used a lot of Crystal malt. Keep in mind that this was an 11 gallon batch. I used a starter and 1 packet of S-04 and pitched the yeast slurry after it had produced about 1 full cup of thick white yeast in the bottom of the starter. I decanted the starter before pitching it.
 
Ok, I've been doing my research on S-04 and a lot of brewers are noticing significant esters if fermented above 67F. My fermentation strips on the fermenters never got over 67F but I wonder how accurate fermentation strips are on better bottles v. a thermo-well? Maybe my internal beer temp did hit 70?

At any rate it can't hurt to age these a few months and report back....
 
Ok, I've been doing my research on S-04 and a lot of brewers are noticing significant esters if fermented above 67F. My fermentation strips on the fermenters never got over 67F but I wonder how accurate fermentation strips are on better bottles v. a thermo-well? Maybe my internal beer temp did hit 70?

At any rate it can't hurt to age these a few months and report back....

The fermometer instructions have some info on the effect of ambient temperature, but it was only checked on a glass carboy. Here is the link:
http://tkachenterprises.com/Products.html
 
One thing you mentioned... You said you shook your fermenters after you pitched as well as before. I thought before was perfectly fine
but not after the yeast is inside the fermenter in the case of beer and ale. The oxidized beer in this case may taste like wet cardboard...
that is what I thought I read somewhere here.
 
One thing you mentioned... You said you shook your fermenters after you pitched as well as before. I thought before was perfectly fine
but not after the yeast is inside the fermenter in the case of beer and ale. The oxidized beer in this case may taste like wet cardboard...
that is what I thought I read somewhere here.

I have never heard that aeration is bad after the yeast is pitched. Why would it make a difference adding more air or pitching on wort that is already full of oxygen? The yeast need oxygen to grow so I don't see how aeration after pitching could cause problems but someone please correct me if this assumption is wrong!
 
If you aerate your wort it should be the same difference before and after pitching, maybe if you shook em up after primary fermentation you might get oxidation, but at the beginning the yeast consume the oxygen and reproduce thereby removing O2 from the wort? right?
 
Odin, I agree with your thinking on this, I will admit I don't know why there is an exception for beer because wine and cider benefit from
aeration sometimes. What I read originally said something about the beer's yeast should get their O2 by eating the sugar for the most part.
I was just trying to help, not trying to upset anyone, sorry. One last thing and I hope this does not stir thins up, but the OP mentioned
about aeration before pitching, if the wort happened to be too warm or possibly hot, off flavors would result. I better make my exit here
as i did not mean to cause a stir.
 
I always shake just prior and just after the yeast pitch. It will not oxidize a thing, as the yeast will consume all of the oxygen in the wort as they reproduce during the lag phase. This is a good technique to do. Now after it gets going, that's a different story.
 
Just after should be absolutely fine, but S04 can ""get going" pretty fast so yes probably to just after, but later in the day may not be
so good. I hope others chime in!
 
Sounds like there might be a lot of problems. More details on water volumes, water source, water adjustments, gravity readings, etc. would help eliminate some of the potential problems. It may just be the case that OP does not like the flavors common to english ale strains and S04 in particular. If you do not like the ester flavors with those strains, either do not use them or ferment much cooler. I fermented a porter with S04 a few weeks ago at 62F because I didn't want too much yeast character in that particular beer. It came out fairly clean but I am not opposed to fermenting some of my English-style beers much warmer.
 
Sounds like there might be a lot of problems. More details on water volumes, water source, water adjustments, gravity readings, etc. would help eliminate some of the potential problems. It may just be the case that OP does not like the flavors common to english ale strains and S04 in particular. If you do not like the ester flavors with those strains, either do not use them or ferment much cooler. I fermented a porter with S04 a few weeks ago at 62F because I didn't want too much yeast character in that particular beer. It came out fairly clean but I am not opposed to fermenting some of my English-style beers much warmer.

Water info:

Mash: 1.3qt/lb @ 156F
Batch sparge with 180F water to bring the grainbed up to 170F during sparge.
Extract Efficiency was around 75%

Water source: Granite bedrock water well @ 380' depth. Water is average in mineral content and neutral in pH according to the water test performed when I bought my house. I've always used this water in my beers and it's great.

I'm really starting to think that nothing is wrong with the beer...I just don't like the taste of the esters produced with S-04 yeast fermented in the 66-68F range. I also realized that my beer had only been in the bottles for 18 days when I did my first taste test. I'm going to try them again at 4 weeks and see if there is any improvement and report back.
 
Jayhem, did you taste this beer along the way before bottling? I have a winter warmer (1.075, with similar ingredients) sitting on SO4 for just about 2 weeks. I rehydrated 1 single pack, expecting a gravity around 1.060, which still probably stresses the yeast a bit. On top of that, I pitched at 60F and fermentation probably got no warmer than 64F. The bulk of fermentation ended within a week. At 7-10 days the beer has that flavor you describe. I moved it to slightly warmer climes and just checked last night that this flavor is gone.

The upshoot of what I'm saying is drink samples of your beer along the process and let that dictate your schedule or course of action. However, it is quite possible that the character has changed or is adjusting to its new package. English yeasts have a tendency to do that, so it may come back around to something more drinkable...good luck!
 
Jayhem, did you taste this beer along the way before bottling? I have a winter warmer (1.075, with similar ingredients) sitting on SO4 for just about 2 weeks. I rehydrated 1 single pack, expecting a gravity around 1.060, which still probably stresses the yeast a bit. On top of that, I pitched at 60F and fermentation probably got no warmer than 64F. The bulk of fermentation ended within a week. At 7-10 days the beer has that flavor you describe. I moved it to slightly warmer climes and just checked last night that this flavor is gone.

The upshoot of what I'm saying is drink samples of your beer along the process and let that dictate your schedule or course of action. However, it is quite possible that the character has changed or is adjusting to its new package. English yeasts have a tendency to do that, so it may come back around to something more drinkable...good luck!

Thanks for the response. I tasted the beer before priming and bottling and it tasted good. It didn't seem to develop this harsh nutty/bitter taste till it was carbonated. I'm really hoping that a 2-month bottle condition at 70F will at least make it drinkable.
 
How can this be a common problem and people still use S04?


At a recent competition (357 entries) i won several categories with beers made with S04:
-3rd best of show (American Pale Ale)
-1st Place Special Bitter
-2nd Place Extra Special Bitter
-1st Place American Pale Ale

i think the yeast i fine, maybe operator error?

for those interested here is how i handle the yeast.

1. rehydrate per the instructions. i do this 30 minutes before pitching. the yeast will foam up, i pitch when it is at peak foam. the yeast takes off quickly this way. if you wait an hour plus after the foam subsides there is more lag time. Not sure it makes a difference.

2. pitch around 58-60 degrees

3. maintain 60-62 degrees for a few days. I tape my johnson controler probe to the carboy, insulated with folded up paper towel.

4. when fermentation starts slowing down, ramp up to 68-70.

5. hold at 68-70 until beer is done.

6. total primary time of 14 days.

7. cold crash, fine with gelatin. carbonate, age, collect ribbons.

i also inject pure O2 and use Wyeast beer nutrient.
 
At a recent competition (357 entries) i won several categories with beers made with S04:
-3rd best of show (American Pale Ale)
-1st Place Special Bitter
-2nd Place Extra Special Bitter
-1st Place American Pale Ale

i think the yeast i fine, maybe operator error?

for those interested here is how i handle the yeast.

1. rehydrate per the instructions. i do this 30 minutes before pitching. the yeast will foam up, i pitch when it is at peak foam. the yeast takes off quickly this way. if you wait an hour plus after the foam subsides there is more lag time. Not sure it makes a difference.

2. pitch around 58-60 degrees

3. maintain 60-62 degrees for a few days. I tape my johnson controler probe to the carboy, insulated with folded up paper towel.

4. when fermentation starts slowing down, ramp up to 68-70.

5. hold at 68-70 until beer is done.

6. total primary time of 14 days.

7. cold crash, fine with gelatin. carbonate, age, collect ribbons.

i also inject pure O2 and use Wyeast beer nutrient.

I pitched around 70F and then put my carboy in my fermentation control fridge at 60F ambient so the beer came down to 65F before high krausen stage. I kept the beer temp around 65-67F for the first few days and then left it at 67 to finish up.



I actually tasted another sample of the brown ale last night...25 days in bottles now and it's starting to clean up a bit! Definitely drinkable now. I think if I cold condition them for a couple weeks it might be good! :mug:
 
i'm a little slower to jump on the s-04 bashwagon. how many ounces EKG did you use? did you use a wort chiller? I have gotten tastes from that hop in young beer similar to what you're describing. It fades pretty quick, though.
 
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