1 gallon starter question

If I want a to make a gallon starter, should I make a quart of starter wort and pitch the yeast from the smack pack first and then every so often add another quart until I reach a total volume of 1 gallon, or can I just make up a starter wort of 1 gallon right off the bat and then pitch the yeast from the smack pack? I plan of chilling and then decanting the liquid on brew day.

tinydancer said:

If I want a to make a gallon starter, should I make a quart of starter wort and pitch the yeast from the smack pack first and then every so often add another quart until I reach a total volume of 1 gallon, or can I just make up a starter wort of 1 gallon right off the bat and then pitch the yeast from the smack pack? I plan of chilling and then decanting the liquid on brew day.

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It is best to start small and build up. That way you're not stressing the yeast.

I suggest you go from 1 quart then to 1 gallon. The rule is not to exceed 5 - 10 times the volume in each step (exact value depends on the yeast).

Just curious, how big of a batch are you making that you would need a 1 gallon starter? That's a crap load of yeast. Are you making a Barleywine or other high gravity brew?

Splain' to me how making a large volume starter, stresses the yeast. I ask, because I just did this very thing last night. ie. made 1 gallon of starter wort and pitched my yeast into it. My thinking was that the yeast only have to work once instead of twice, now you have me worried that I made a mistake.

Sulli.

Because quite simply yeasts are living things, this isn't making coolaid or cooking with a bunch of inert ingredients, it's working with the birth, life, reproduction and death cycle f living creatures.

Yeasts reproduce exponentially, not based on the volume of sugars around them. So if you make a big wort and dump x amount of yeast in it, they're going to reproduce once and that amount of yeast is going then try to cope with all the food in their enviorment. They are going to eat all they can , then they are going to basically produce a bunch of alchohol and co2 then go dorment....Not necessarily consuming ALL the sugar in their enviornment.

Think of this as the one guy at a hotdog eating contest being given 30 hot dogs and only eating 20 before he pukes. There's still 10 hotdogs left to eat and one tired and sick eater.

On the other hand if you "step up" x amount of yeasts reproduce and eat a couple cups of sugars, and they finish it and are still hungry. Then you add more wort, they reproduce again and they eat and finish all and are still hungry. You add another step and the same thing happens until you reach your final volume, and with each feeding you've grown more yeast cells, which are still hungry for your beer...

This is the your teenage boy's birthday party where you have a dozen hungry growing boys killing off 60 hotdogs (5 apiece), and deciding that they are still hungry enough to want you to order pizza (without the reproduction factor, of course).

That doesnt make sense to me. Then your saying if we pitch a small starter into a 5g batch we stress the yeast?

So what your saying is that the yeast from a 125ml smackpack will reproduce the same amount of yeast regardless of whether it's pitched into 1L of wort or 5Gal. of wort. Am I understanding correctly?

Read this and be enlightened.

III) The third phase is the exponential phase where yeast reproduction and metabolism is in high gear. Cells are dividing every 90 - 180 minutes and fermentation begins. During this time the number of yeast cells may increase as much as 1000-fold (or 3.0 logs) within 24 hours. The extent to which the cells divide is dictated primarily by the pitching rate. If appropriate pitching rates are used, the yeast are pitched at high concentrations (5-15 million yeast cells per ml) and undergo approximately 3 generations (23- or an 8-fold increase in cell number) to yield 80-100 million cells per ml. 100 million cells per ml is about the maximal concentration of yeast attainable in fermenting wort (Figure 2 ∓ 3). Fermentation is also very active and a krausen may be beginning to form.

So if I pitch a wyeast smackpack, which they claim contains 100 billion cells, into 1 Gallon of 1.040 wort, which according to the above paragraph would require approximately 57 billion cells for an "appropriate pitching rate". then those 100 billion cells should undergo approximately 3 generations without any problem, which would give me 300 billion cells, give or take a few million, and a five gallon batch would require just about 300 billion cells, to achieve a "high concentration" of yeast cells. So unless I'm completely confused, and it wouldn't be the first time, if you pitch into 1 gallon of wort you get plenty of yeast cells without all the hassle and potential contamination problems associated with step ups. Right? Wrong? Please put me on the correct path to yeast starter enlightenment.

I'm basically saying this, with what I thought was an easily understanable hotdog analogy;

From what Kevin posted.

Why such small increments? Well the answer lies in fermentation performance. Larger step-ups supposedly alter the efficiency of metabolism of the fermentable sugars in wort. Those affected are ones which are fermented last, primarily maltose and maltotriose. Thus yeasts which are propagated by large step-ups will be susceptible to lower attenuation and sweeter finishes.

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Lower attenuation and sweeter finishes are the same thing as the 10 leftover hotdogs.

Thank's Revvy, that's a great article. The first paragraph of my last reply was quoted from that very article.
It just seems like, according to the numbers used in that article, you could get plenty of yeast without step ups. No?

Sulli said:

Yes, thank you Revvy, and that is a great article. The first paragraph of my last reply was quoted from the same article.
It just seems like, according to the numbers used in that article, you could get plenty of yeast without step ups. No?

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You will get a lot of yeast by just pitching a vial right into 5 gallons of wort too, but it is about making the yeast happy too. Not just making them grow quickly. Stepping up is a way to create lots of yeast, that are happy and ready to make some beer.

Sulli said:

Yes, thank you Revvy, and that is a great article. The first paragraph of my last reply was quoted from the same article.
It just seems like, according to the numbers used in that article, you could get plenty of yeast without step ups. No?

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You'll get plenty of yeasts, but if you are stepping straight to a gallon size starter the yeasts are more likely will be tireder (more stressed) than if you stepped up incrementally.

And tireder yeast attenuate less and possibly could be more apt to suffer from things like autolyses and off flavors, and could also possibly be less apt to fight off any other wild yeasts (bacterias) in the environment.

You basically want the healthiest and hungriest yeast possible when you are pitching it.

findthefish said:

You will get a lot of yeast by just pitching a vial right into 5 gallons of wort too, but it is about making the yeast happy too. Not just making them grow quickly. Stepping up is a way to create lots of yeast, that are happy and ready to make some beer.

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What he said

*imitates Charlie Papazian* "And happy yeasts make happy beer."

I'm going to go brew now!

Now that I understand, happy yeast = happy beer
Thanks for the input guys.

Sulli said:

Now that I understand, happy yeast = happy beer
Thanks for the input guys.

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One more analogy...

This is your smack pack or tube on a one gallon starter...



(this wasn't the fugliest pic I could find to illustrate it-I thought of using naked fat man in front of computer...google it )

This is your yeast stepped up incrementally....



Now which would you want farting CO2 and peeing alcohol into YOUR bucket?

Revvy said:

... Now which would you want farting CO2 and peeing alcohol into YOUR bucket?

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None of the above. I want these doing it.

Sulli said:

So if I pitch a wyeast smackpack, which they claim contains 100 billion cells, into 1 Gallon of 1.040 wort, which according to the above paragraph would require approximately 57 billion cells for an "appropriate pitching rate". then those 100 billion cells should undergo approximately 3 generations without any problem, which would give me 300 billion cells, give or take a few million, and a five gallon batch would require just about 300 billion cells, to achieve a "high concentration" of yeast cells. So unless I'm completely confused, and it wouldn't be the first time, if you pitch into 1 gallon of wort you get plenty of yeast cells without all the hassle and potential contamination problems associated with step ups. Right? Wrong? Please put me on the correct path to yeast starter enlightenment.

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From the same linked article:

"Most homebrewers start out pitching a Wyeast packet. How much are you actually underpitching with one of these 50 ml pouches? Assuming all the yeast in a Wyeast packet are viable (only about 25% truly are!), we are adding only 50 ml of about 60 million/cells per ml. This translates into a pitching rate of 150,000 cells per ml (Table 4). Thus with a single Wyeast packet you are underpitching by a factor of at least 35 for ales and almost 100-fold for lagers."

You COULD overpitch, but I doubt you will at this level. I've done a barrleywine on top of a huge cake of yeast from a pale and it came out just fine. With an original gravity so high, I think you'll do best to make the biggest starter you can.

I have a question regarding one gallon starters. I pitched a smack pack that mr malty says its 50% viable. So I made a 1 liter started decanted off the liquid and added another 2 liters of fresh wort. due to time restrains I didn't step it up again. Is it smart to do a one gallon starter? Im making this big starter for a lager and the smack pack was "old".

Sulli - I'm fairly new to this, but it's seems like your gallon starter may be reasonable for your beer. I adjusted the yeast growth rate from the default of 3 to 4.1 which assumes that you provide plenty of yeast nutrient.

Thoughts anyone?
BTW - I guessed a one week old vial, not sure if that's accurate, but it seems that a 1 gallon starter is plausible in certain situations.

Edit: Just realized this post is really old.

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