Please explain this to me........

Could someone explain this to me?

If you want to get 'married' you have to go to the courthouse, get a license and have both parties sign a legally binding document. Plus, there are other religious obligations prior to the actual ceremony for most people.

If you want to get divorced, you have to get lawyers involved or at the least sign yet another legally binding document to finalize it.

SWMBO wants to have a permanent procedure done to prevent her from having children. However, they are claiming that she and I must go through mandatory counseling since we don't have any children already and sign something stating we fully understand what we're agreeing to. And, SWMBO is a doctor herself! I'm pretty sure she understands.

But, if you do want kids, you don't have to have ANY counseling, authorization or anything!? Not even proof that you're capable of raising another person much less more than one?

This sounds ridiculous to me. I think there should be some sort of screening process for wanna be parents. How about making people prove they're fit to be parents before they even reproduce to begin with?

We come wired to have kids. How do you propose we change that?

Neomich said:

Could someone explain this to me?

If you want to get 'married' you have to go to the courthouse, get a license and have both parties sign a legally binding document. Plus, there are other religious obligations prior to the actual ceremony for most people.

If you want to get divorced, you have to get lawyers involved or at the least sign yet another legally binding document to finalize it.

SWMBO wants to have a permanent procedure done to prevent her from having children. However, they are claiming that she and I must go through mandatory counseling since we don't have any children already and sign something stating we fully understand what we're agreeing to. And, SWMBO is a doctor herself! I'm pretty sure she understands.

But, if you do want kids, you don't have to have ANY counseling, authorization or anything!? Not even proof that you're capable of raising another person much less more than one?

This sounds ridiculous to me. I think there should be some sort of screening process for wanna be parents. How about making people prove they're fit to be parents before they even reproduce to begin with?

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Wait, who is this "they" that are requiring you to have counseling? The hospital? The insurance carrier? The gubmint? I guess, since it's a very "final" procedure from which there is no going back, the ones who COULD be held liable by our stupid civil courts are trying to merely protect themselves from the possibility of someone who is under "mental duress" or some such **** coming back and suing them later. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying there there HAD to be some kind of precedent to make them institute this policy...some crackhead who got her tubes tied, then came back and sued them years later because they allowed her to go through with the decision. As with most stupid, seemingly-nonsensical policies in the private sector, you can probably count on this one being the fault of the stupid civil courts, lawyers, etc.

I do agree, though...you should have to get a license to have a kid. And this, coming from a staunch libertarian. Problem is, libertarianism and property rights are in somewhat of a conflict with parental treatment of children...as children aren't really competent adults and don't have the same mental or legal status as adults. So the compromise I'd support would be a licensing/screening process for reproduction.

There are certain people who should be sterilized with no testing, and thusly prevented from ever infecting our planet with their offspring.

The people 4 houses up the road from me are a classic example.

Seriously though, I can certainly see the source of your frustration.

I can't disagree with anything said already, but I'm sure the Gov't has something to do with it.

You are denying the State of future soldiers and taxpayers...

i saw a stand up comedy special and the comedian brought up that exact situation/question. it was amusing.

its one of those many many 'it doesnt make sense, but what can you do...' situations, human nature is a very funny thing

its not like they can get a screening panel to interview the sperm before entering the egg....people are going to do what people do best, hump like rabbits and reproduce

homebrewer_99 said:

I can't disagree with anything said already, but I'm sure the Gov't has something to do with it.

You are denying the State of future soldiers and taxpayers...

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I think it has more to do with Social Security.

mr_stimey said:

i saw a stand up comedy special and the comedian brought up that exact situation/question. it was amusing.

its one of those many many 'it doesnt make sense, but what can you do...' situations, human nature is a very funny thing

its not like they can get a screening panel to interview the sperm before entering the egg....people are going to do what people do best, hump rabbits and reproduce

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Nothing like humping rabbits & reproducing...:cross:

BTW im new here..

Just another reproductive freedom that we're losing!

Sorry to hear that. We need more intelligent people on earth to carry the load. The people breeding like rabbits are mostly lower class and can’t afford it. I think it should be mandatory for anyone on the gubment tit to be on birth control. If the people in the military are government issue so should welfare recipients.

I think the premise of Idiocracy isn't far off...the idiots breed like rabbits, while the intelligent genealogy only has one or two kids per couple.

Melana said:

Just another reproductive freedom that we're losing!

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I don't follow you. A right is being taken away, because someone wants to make sure you know the ramifications of a procedure like this? Are you aware that if a person decides later that they actually want to try conceiving that these types of procedures are not only very expensive to have "repaired", but also not more than 50% successful at best either. There's plenty of forms of contraception available, but things like vasectomy, tubal ligation, hysterectomy and such are pretty extreme ways to deal with the desire to have "ramification free" copulation.

This country's desire to have everything fixed with either a pill, or even scarier with a surgical procedure these days, is getting out of hand. Gastric bypass and liposuction instead of exercise (I'm kind of a fatty, so I can't preach too much, but I don't intend to lose my "quitsmokingweight" by surgery).

Sorry to rant, and I don't mean to single Melana out, but I don't see any problem in someone trying to make sure someone else is making an educated decision.

rohanski said:

Sorry to hear that. We need more intelligent people on earth to carry the load. The people breeding like rabbits are mostly lower class and can’t afford it. I think it should be mandatory for anyone on the gubment tit to be on birth control. If the people in the military are government issue so should welfare recipients.

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Wow. Just wow. Do you hear yourself here?

spazus_maximus said:

Nothing like humping rabbits & reproducing...:cross:

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yea lol good catch on that one. im not even going to edit it though, maybe its proof i shouldnt reproduce?

EDIT: No rabbits were harmed during the discussion of this thread

I guess my issue is that there's nothing that has to be signed or agreed to before having children but you gotta sign paperwork to get married, divorced and other things?

The doctors and hospital are requiring the counseling and paperwork to be in order before performing this procedure. Sure, maybe some people can say they understand but really don't but another doctor has a pretty good idea of what they're agreeing to.

If you can have kids at will, others should be able to not have kids at will. You would think you'd need permission to do something, not permission to refrain from doing something. This just doesn't make any sense.

ma2brew said:

Wow. Just wow. Do you hear yourself here?

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Is something wrong with this? I believe you have the right to have all of the kids you want, but I have the right not to pay for them.

Neomich said:

I guess my issue is that there's nothing that has to be signed or agreed to before having children but you gotta sign paperwork to get married, divorced and other things?

The doctors and hospital are requiring the counseling and paperwork to be in order before performing this procedure. Sure, maybe some people can say they understand but really don't but another doctor has a pretty good idea of what they're agreeing to.

If you can have kids at will, others should be able to not have kids at will. You would think you'd need permission to do something, not permission to refrain from doing something. This just doesn't make any sense.

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I can understand your point of view, but do you feel that your reproductive rights are being violated?

I'm just kind of flabbergasted at comments that border on advocating govt. mandated selective reproduction. That's like the Nazis sterilizing non-Aryan citizens without permission.

I would highly recommend a thorough re-read of Brave New World by Aldous Huxley before we start advocating some kind of class or intelligence level based guidelines for who can have kids or not. Some of the world's greatest minds came from less than ideal households.

i agree with rohanksi, if you cant afford to give your kids a good life then dont ****ing have them. Major drain on taxpayers and sooner or later the economy will give out.

ma2brew,

I am not at all for the government saying you can't breed. It's your choice. If you are on the government tit, you are on birth control. It's voluntary.

Neomich said:

The doctors and hospital are requiring the counseling and paperwork to be in order before performing this procedure. Sure, maybe some people can say they understand but really don't but another doctor has a pretty good idea of what they're agreeing to.

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It's the lawyers for the doctors and hospital who are making you sign this. Somewhere, some hospital or doctor probably go sued by a patient who claimed "you didn't tell me it was permanent"... or maybe no such suit existed, but a lawyer imagined it might happen. This is all about liability prevention. And they make everyone go through the counseling and sign the papers, because it's not about whether you understand the ramifications...it's about whether you might sue them or not.

Assuming that everyone who goes through the "counseling" and signs the paperwork gets the surgery. If they're denying people even after that, then there's something more at work here.

If you can have kids at will, others should be able to not have kids at will. You would think you'd need permission to do something, not permission to refrain from doing something. This just doesn't make any sense.

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The lawyers aren't telling you that you can't not have kids...they're telling you that these particular doctors at this particular hospital won't perform this particular surgery unless you (basically) promise not to sue them if/when you change your mind. Not that much different from any other liability waiver you sign.

At any rate I sorry to hear it. Kids are a blessing.....I think! LOL

rohanski said:

ma2brew,

I am not at all for the government saying you can't breed. It's your choice. If you are on the government tit, you are on birth control. It's voluntary.

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Well, in that case I sorta agree with you, in that I think there should be far fewer people "on the government tit". The social causes that the federal level of government has taken over are ridiculous. Our founding fathers would be appalled.

ma2brew said:

Well, in that case I sorta agree with you, in that I think there should be far fewer people "on the government tit". The social causes that the federal level of government has taken over are ridiculous. Our founding fathers would be appalled.

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I mean we have a voluntary army that when they join have to eat, sleep and live the way the government says. I just apply this simple logic to welfare recipients.

Here's a novel idea. This has little to do with having children. It about the perception of rights. I was taught that this is how you define a right:

A right is something that does not infringe upon the rights of others.

A privilege is something that you are given that DOES infringe upon the privileges of others, and (if misused or abused) can be taken away. IE Driving is a privilege for able bodied adults in good standing with the citizens of this country. Get a DUI and you lose your privilege.

Where does it say that you have a RIGHT to procreate? If you do not take care of that child it becomes a burden. Does that mean we have to start killing kids we think can't or won't make it in society? Nope, that's called Eugenics (which was very popular in this country until a German guy named Hitler took up the cause)

Anyway, the point is this: We will never come to a conclusion or an agreement about this topic. But something I think we can all agree upon is the less lawyers & politicians involved in our lives the better. So lets take the focus off the goofy family down the street and put the cross hairs on improving our government.

Hold them to their words or vote these folks out of office otherwise it will get worse from here on out.

I'm sick of paying for freeloaders whether they have kids or not. I've been poor. I've even been homeless for a few short stints. I've never taken money from the government and I never will. I had to solve my own damn problems! I'm not ashamed to yell at the bums who harass me to give them money. They deserve everything they have or rather don't have. They are going to die poor and miserable no matter how much money they get from me. That is what they DECIDED to do.... who am I to get in their way?

Sorry to step on toes in here. I don't think I'm going to make any friends if I keep on with my opinions on this issue. I'm outta this one now.
to all, and I hope there's no hard feelings.

ma2brew said:

Sorry to step on toes in here. I don't think I'm going to make any friends if I keep on with my opinions on this issue. I'm outta this one now.

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I love ya man!

Neomich said:

Sure, maybe some people can say they understand but really don't but another doctor has a pretty good idea of what they're agreeing to.

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In this day in age you can't make exceptions for anyone. Somone could sue for discrimination (ie. the hospital discriminated against them by making them go because they weren't "smart" enough to understand).

It does suck though. Just do what I did for my pre-marital counseling. Blah blah blah blah...Yeah Yeah I won't beat her...

Evan! said:

I think the premise of Idiocracy isn't far off...the idiots breed like rabbits, while the intelligent genealogy only has one or two kids per couple.

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I guess that makes me an idiot then, thanks. BTW I have a few questions...

1) What is a primary fermenter?
2) Can I use an laundry soap bucket for a secondary?
3) What is yeast and how do I get it?

Neomich said:

SWMBO wants to have a permanent procedure done to prevent her from having children. However, they are claiming that she and I must go through mandatory counseling since we don't have any children already and sign something stating we fully understand what we're agreeing to.

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My wife had to do that, and has been with the same Oby since our first was born 16 years ago. I asked, and the doctor explained that it was just an in-house procedure to make damn sure that no one had it done w/o hearing and understanding the speech. I'm sure that insurance/liability plays a role, but she seemed pretty sincere in her answer...

Evan! said:

I think the premise of Idiocracy isn't far off...

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Evan, I think you've been asleep for a few decades. Let me catch you up. It's now 2007 and the idiocracy happened about a decade ago....

Maybe I should just go knock up a couple of hookers, get those kids on welfare and then SWMBO can get the surgery without a bunch of red tape.

pldoolittle said:

Evan, I think you've been asleep for a few decades. Let me catch you up. It's now 2007 and the idiocracy happened about a decade ago....

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We're not watering our crops with gatorade...yet.

Anyone remember "A Modest Proposal". A brilliant idea that would solve many modern problems as well.

Evan! said:

We're not watering our crops with gatorade...yet.

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The key word being yet... Down here in Atlanta were in a Level 4 drought and the #1 commercial consumer of water is the Gatorade plant. How long do you think it'll be before some Grade A dumba** floats that idea? Remember, we're not talking about you and me, we're talking about politicians and welfare voters....