To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In

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natewv said:
I asked this in the yeast washing thread but will ask here too. My 1st AG and 1st no secondary brew was the same brew, a Stone ruination IPA Clone (so lots of trub). I ended up with over a gallon of trub, how much success do Primary only AG brewers have in harvesting/washing their yeast when there is so so so much extra ****e at the bottom of the fermenter upon tranferring to bottling bucket or keg...and in particular what steps do you take to do so?
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I think maybe the problem lies somewhere in your process. Do you whirlpool or vorlauf? Is your racking cane going straight to the bottom of your kettle or hovering over the hop sludge/hot break material?

I haven't had any issues unless it's a hop bomb.
 
maxam said:
I think maybe the problem lies somewhere in your process. Do you whirlpool or vorlauf? Is your racking cane going straight to the bottom of your kettle or hovering over the hop sludge/hot break material?

I haven't had any issues unless it's a hop bomb.
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I'm confused about what you are asking? I do BIAB for now, and admittedly did not strain the cooled wort prior to pitching, on this batch which I've done in recent batches.

With no secondary I simply have more trub.

I don't use a racking cane to go from kettle to primary, I 'vigorously pour it to aerate the sh*t out of it. I don't understand when my racking cane would be invlooved?
 
natewv said:
I'm confused about what you are asking? I do BIAB for now, and admittedly did not strain the cooled wort prior to pitching, on this batch which I've done in recent batches.

With no secondary I simply have more trub.

I don't use a racking cane to go from kettle to primary, I 'vigorously pour it to aerate the sh*t out of it. I don't understand when my racking cane would be invlooved?
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When your boil is finished and after you cool to pitching temps you are left with all kinds of solids at the bottom of your kettle (hop sludge, hot break material, grain particles that didn't stay in you bag). Swirling the wort vigorously and letting it sit covered for about 20 min should make all of that stuff compact into a cone or mound in the middle of your kettle. If you rack it to your fermenter instead of dumping it all in you will have much less trub in your primary. You can aerate be sloshing it all around or whisking it. Better yet you can get an aeration system with oxygen or an aquarium pump. There are some great how to guides on here for that.
 
Has anyone here has ferment a batch for 4 weeks or so and then re-use the same yeast for another batch. Re-use meaning as just pour the next brew on top of what is left in the carboy or should I wash the yeast instead?.
I want to do first a batch of kolsch then I want to use the same yeast for a batch of Amber Ale. Just wondering cause that will save me some time and money. :mug:
 
Josephbrew said:
Has anyone here has ferment a batch for 4 weeks or so and then re-use the same yeast for another batch. Re-use meaning as just pour the next brew on top of what is left in the carboy or should I wash the yeast instead?.
I want to do first a batch of kolsch then I want to use the same yeast for a batch of Amber Ale. Just wondering cause that will save me some time and money. :mug:
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Give this a read when you have some time...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-not-pitch-your-yeast-cake-166221/

You'll get more opinions than you can stand, but it's worth reading to form your own opinion.
 
Ever since reading Revvy and crew's recommendations I have skipped the secondary, and all of my brews have been great - and clear. But now I am planning to try my first lager. All I read on lagers suggest that the long cold lagering is done in a secondary - but is that because they are from the "old school", or is it because a secondary IS in fact the best bet for lagering?
 
rwberne said:
Ever since reading Revvy and crew's recommendations I have skipped the secondary, and all of my brews have been great - and clear. But now I am planning to try my first lager. All I read on lagers suggest that the long cold lagering is done in a secondary - but is that because they are from the "old school", or is it because a secondary IS in fact the best bet for lagering?
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I kn ow a few folks have talked about lagering in primary...But on the rare lager I make I still go old school and use a carboy.
 
Revvy -

Thanks - seemed to make sense to use the secondary, but I feel better hearing about it from you! Happy New Year!

RBerne
 
Darwin - I don't keg, I bottle, so I have to have that 4 week or so period in the 30s. That's why my thought is to rack to secondary, drop temp in my freezer to 38 or so, and let it sit.
 
QUESTION!

I like this and it should save me alot of time and effort. However, when using a secondary for my wheat that i want to add oranges to, do I use whole or half oranges, or jest the peels?

Any recomendations?
 
cameronwoolery said:
QUESTION!

I like this and it should save me alot of time and effort. However, when using a secondary for my wheat that i want to add oranges to, do I use whole or half oranges, or jest the peels?

Any recomendations?
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Depends on what you want, but most people would just use the zest.

I've never heard of anyone putting whole oranges or orange juice in beer. But I guess you could.
 
I just brewed my first batch. I just moved it to a secondary fermenter... So this is a step that should be ignored? So how long is a good time period for primary? Doesn't secondary help clear your beer of sediment?
 
benzy4010 said:
I just brewed my first batch. I just moved it to a secondary fermenter... So this is a step that should be ignored? So how long is a good time period for primary? Doesn't secondary help clear your beer of sediment?
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Time is what clears your beer. It clears regardless of whether its in the primary or secondary. If you are careful when racking to the bottling bucket almost no yeast that has been settled will come along with your beer. If you do get yeast transferred it settles very quickly in the bottling bucket anyway. I primary 3 to 4 weeks and get clear beer.
 
Geeze, thanks for to this thread I was up until 3 am after I accidentally saw it when I was about to go to bed.

Good read..
 
if you decide too leave it in the primary for a month or whatever time period you wish instead of bringing it over too a secondary, letting it sit for weeks, and then bottling, do you rack over too a secondary just before you bottle or do you bottle straight from the primary?
 
Some people manage to bottle straight from primary, but standard practice is to boil priming sugar for a bit, put it in the bottom of a bottling bucket and then siphon from your primary on top of the priming sugar into the bottling bucket. Most folks use a bottling bucket with a spigot if they bottle, which is pretty handy.
 
lowtones84 said:
Some people manage to bottle straight from primary, but standard practice is to boil priming sugar for a bit, put it in the bottom of a bottling bucket and then siphon from your primary on top of the priming sugar into the bottling bucket. Most folks use a bottling bucket with a spigot if they bottle, which is pretty handy.
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I tried both for some time. I started using a bottling bucket as you describe.

Then, to avoid extra oxidation and to save some time, I tried to bottle directly from the primary, pouring the boiled mix of water and sugar (or DME or original worth) into the primary and then into the bottle. The clarity was nice at the start and then (depending from the yeast flocculation) exceptional after some months (from 2 to 6). Here is the con: I opened some beers that are more carbonated than others. Even if I poured the mix at the start of the bottling process, to let it mix with the beer without agitating, I think that I had more sugar in some bottles than in others. It's difficult to say for sure, but I still have this feeling...

I think I will go back to the bottling bucket again and make some more tests...
Cheers! :mug:
Piteko
 
piteko said:
I tried both for some time. I started using a bottling bucket as you describe.

Then, to avoid extra oxidation and to save some time, I tried to bottle directly from the primary, pouring the boiled mix of water and sugar (or DME or original worth) into the primary and then into the bottle. The clarity was nice at the start and then (depending from the yeast flocculation) exceptional after some months (from 2 to 6). Here is the con: I opened some beers that are more carbonated than others. Even if I poured the mix at the start of the bottling process, to let it mix with the beer without agitating, I think that I had more sugar in some bottles than in others. It's difficult to say for sure, but I still have this feeling...

I think I will go back to the bottling bucket again and make some more tests...
Cheers! :mug:
Piteko
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I've never tried bottling from primary, but yeah, this would be a problem. You're never going to get that sugar to mix well without 1) stirring it in some say, thereby stirring up trub, or 2) letting it sit for a while, in which case the yeast will just eat the sugar while you're waiting. :p

If you want to bottle from primary and want consistent carbonation, I think you're going to need to use carb tabs or individually measure out sugar into each bottle. Personally, I'ma stick to my bottling bucket. :D
 
discnjh said:
I've never tried bottling from primary, but yeah, this would be a problem. You're never going to get that sugar to mix well without 1) stirring it in some say, thereby stirring up trub, or 2) letting it sit for a while, in which case the yeast will just eat the sugar while you're waiting. :p

If you want to bottle from primary and want consistent carbonation, I think you're going to need to use carb tabs or individually measure out sugar into each bottle. Personally, I'ma stick to my bottling bucket. :D
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I think there is a third way, which I'm not in it for the moment: you can mix the boiled sugar and water and make a cold crash at the same time. The sugar should have enough time (1-2 days) to mix all the way and the yeast should be inactive because of the temperature.

Cheers from Italy! :mug:
Piteko
 
piteko said:
I think there is a third way, which I'm not in it for the moment: you can mix the boiled sugar and water and make a cold crash at the same time. The sugar should have enough time (1-2 days) to mix all the way and the yeast should be inactive because of the temperature.

Cheers from Italy! :mug:
Piteko
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Maybe... But you might crash out too much yeast to effectively bottle carb. I dunno. sticking with the bucket. :D
 
discnjh said:
Maybe... But you might crash out too much yeast to effectively bottle carb. I dunno. sticking with the bucket. :D
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I already tried cold crash before bottling, with nice clarity obtained and good carbonation. Never done the experiment described above. Maybe in the future, who knows... By now I will stick again with primary-only and the bottling bucket as you :D

Personally, regarding to the topic, I obtained a better clarity skipping the secondary and making a long primary. But the real jump with clarity was doing primary-only with a very flocculant yeast (like Wyeast Scottish Ale 1728). That was on the bottom of my bottles solid as a rock.
 
cameronwoolery said:
QUESTION!

I like this and it should save me alot of time and effort. However, when using a secondary for my wheat that i want to add oranges to, do I use whole or half oranges, or jest the peels?

Any recomendations?
Click to expand...

Your situation is one of the few where a secondary could be recommended. That said....oranges???????
 
Yeah, aren't the oranges supposed to be sliced and clipped to the edge of your glass when drinking? Seriously, peel them, chop em up a bit to expose the inside and throw em in. Or you could use just the peels, but try to get just the orange part and not the white part of the peel.
 
I agree that the pith is worth avoiding, but oranges aren't so strange. I have a local brewery that makes a blood orange witbier that's really quite good. I think the recipe uses juice and zest. Which raises another question - why not just go the juice & zest route, and skip adding whole fruits altogether?
 
I'd say go with just the peels -- zest the orange (or use a veggie peeler to zest thin strips).. zesting will increase he surface area and release the oils from the skin, which should provide a bit more flavor than just throwing the whole orange in. then peel and eat said orange. win-win. :)

Alternatively, for the Blood orange Hefe from Sam Calagione (Extreme Brewing) he does recommend throwing both the peel and orange sections in the wort (after steeping the fruit in 160deg water). he suggests peeling & cutting up the fruit into the steeping water, being sure to avoid getting any pith (white rind) into the wort.

So moral of the story.. don't add any pith!
 
Is there any concern about a long primary in a plastic bucket? as opposed to in a glass carboy?
 
Revvy said:
As been covered in this thread repeatedly, NO......I've done six months in buckets with no issues. The beers were great.
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I read this thread a while back but couldn't remember if this was covered or not. I was reading a bit of the Home Brewer's Companion and CP mentioned something about not keeping it in plastic for more than a few days after visible fermentation has stopped due to the risk of oxidation.

Since bigger beers can handle a bit of oxidization better as it aids in the aging process, is there any reason to be concerned about smaller beers sitting in a permeable primary for a month or more? My guess is the answer will be no, but I’m throwing it out there anyway.
 
The Brewers Companion was released nine years ago. A lot has changed since then. Read through this whole thread, since you like reading. Extended primaries in plastic buckets pose no threats to your beer, as long as you sanitize properly
 
Revvy said:
LOLZ.....

Dammit we've gone legit. Guess that means I have to get that "No F**king Secondaries" tat lasered off my back now.
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HAHA! Swing by the house and I'll unlimber my old "shop" and cover it up fer ya...Bring beer! hehehe

What to cover it with...hmmm....

"NO F**king Dromedaries!"? Might work, depends on how much beer ya bring along...
 
I've read a lot of bullsheat!
Secondary fermentation rulazzz!

Oh I have an own principle of brewing. No primary fermantation!11!!!1 Directly transition to secondary with no primary.
 

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