Exploring "no chill" brewing

I have brewed several no chill brews now both dark and light. The latest is a lawnmower beer. There have been no off flavors in any of them. I do not use winpaks.

I have used regular plastic buckets and I have used a pyrex carboy. I have also just left it in the boil kettle over night.

I have done it with full wort boils, and with beers I have miscalculated my evap rate and have had to top up, and with planned partial wort boils. All good so far.

What I am waiting to see now is how my Pliny the Elder turns out. I did it no chill drained into a pyrex carboy. The next day I hopped on my motorcycle to buy a thermometer with a long stem so I could get an accurate temp reading before pitching. I got into an accident on the way and my wort was left in the carboy for 4 more days before I felt good enough to mess with it. The plan had been to rack into another fermenter, but because of my injuries I just pitched in the carboy and attached a blow off. I'll be racking to dry hop soon. I'll keep you posted!

RDWHAHB!!!!!

Forgot to mention that I also do not use any type of altered hop schedule. Everything turns out as it should! I have switched to 90 min boils though.

Wish I had discovered no chill before I bought my plate chiller!

I keep thinking about getting back into brewing again. This method appeals to me as I don't have to rebuy as much equipment, and I can shave time off my brewday.

PickledFetus said:

I tasted the wort before pitching the yeast and besides the vegetal flavor and aroma, it didn't taste infected.

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Whatever happened in your keg, I think you were off to a bad start. Of all the No Chill batches I've done (20+ maybe?), I've never smelled anything "off" upon opening the No Chill tank.

I'm thinking now that your keg, which was not designed to hold negative pressure, was somehow pulling air into itself, through a value or something. Perhaps positive pressure forces everything closed, but the negative pressure pulls a poppet or something open ever so slightly. Regardless, all it takes to mess up a batch would be a very small amount of air with some rogue buggies riding it in.

If you try No Chill again, I'd suggest investing in one of those $12-18 jugs from US Plastics. You can always use it to store water and whatnot if you decide No Chill just isn't for you.

McKBrew said:

I keep thinking about getting back into brewing again. This method appeals to me as I don't have to rebuy as much equipment, and I can shave time off my brewday.

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You should try it out once! I don't use the US plastics jugs, I just put the lid on my boiling kettle and sit it in the garage overnight (or in the basement if it is in the 80's or 90s outside). Transfer to fermenter and pitch the next morning

Arrgh, ok you guys have convinced me yet again. Two years ago when for all I knew I was the only US brewer dumb enough to try something like this, it was easier to write this off as due to differences in Aussie ingredients (or just poor taste buds). But it's encouraging to read about so many people here having success with this method.

I'm thinking now that maybe my corny did get infected when the air cooled and the keg lost it's seal. I only waited ~36 hours before pitching, which is probably why it wasn't completely undrinkable after I pitched a bunch of yeast and let it ferment out.

Now to see if Fred Meyer has jerrycans...

PickledFetus said:

Arrgh, ok you guys have convinced me yet again. Two years ago when for all I knew I was the only US brewer dumb enough to try something like this, it was easier to write this off as due to differences in Aussie ingredients (or just poor taste buds). But it's encouraging to read about so many people here having success with this method.

I'm thinking now that maybe my corny did get infected when the air cooled and the keg lost it's seal. I only waited ~36 hours before pitching, which is probably why it wasn't completely undrinkable after I pitched a bunch of yeast and let it ferment out.

Now to see if Fred Meyer has jerrycans...

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Arrgghh... what am I doing wrong here? I brewed a batch of Bier Muncher's Centennial Blonde on Sunday, drained into the US Plastics jerrycan linked in the first post, and then opened it up and pitched today. The wort smells like canned vegetables! Its seriously awful. I took a small hydrometer sample and tried to drink it, but had to dump it after a small sip! I aerated and pitched anyways, just for science, but I'm seriously bummed out. I only have two hypotheses at this point.

First, I used Pilsner malt instead of American 2-row because the LHBS was out of 2-row. I did a 90 minute boil to compensate, but its possible that no-chill and pilsner malts just don't jive.

Second, I got impatient after the boil and didn't wait very long before draining into my cube, probably not more than 2-3 minutes. I'm not sure what temperature the wort was at this point since I wasn't checking the temperature, but others have stated that they wait 10-15 minutes before draining. Presumably, wort cools down faster while whirlpooling in my aluminum brew kettle as opposed to inside the cube, so perhaps it left my wort exposed to the optimum DMS producing temperatures for a longer time.

I've read a ton about no-chill so I'm pretty sure I did everything else right. I cleaned the cube thoroughly before use (stored full of star-san), rinsed it out and sanitized it again with fresh star san, then drained the wort right onto the star-san foam and capped it. I flipped it upside down for 10-15 minutes to sanitize the lid before storing in my basement. The sides of the cube were still dramatically sucked in up until the point when I opened the lid to rack into my fermentor an hour ago.

Honestly, based on my previous experiences, the beer will probably be drinkable, but no-where near optimal and not what I was hoping based on all of the glowing reviews I've read here. I think I'll probably try one more batch next weekend where I'll try and address the two issues above (use 2-row instead of Pilsner and try to wait until the wort is 180ish until cubing).

Anyone have any ideas of what I did wrong?

It really sounds like DMS to me, but I can't for the life of me figure out how that could be your case if you did a 90 minute boil! I am assuming you left the pot uncovered for the boil!

Your technique sounds great and I really can't figure it out. Hang in there man!

I've done several No-Chill batches using pilsner malt and have not had a DMS problem yet. I also start draining the wort into the container as soon as I turn off the flame, no waiting at all.

I can't think of what may be wrong either. I have done this several ways. I have simply put the lid on my brew pot and waited till it cooled, then racked and pitched. I have drained to a plastic bucket and pitched when cool. I have drained to a pyrex carboy and pitched when cool. No issues what so ever. I even had to let one sit several days in the pyrex before pitching because I had an accident and couldn't get to it till then. That beer is bottled and aging as we speak and seems to be just fine. I don't seal my containers like others do either. Personally I think my beers are better than many in the club I belong to who chill. Keep trying and good luck!

After having some very successful no-chill batches, I've had a series of bad batches that might be infected. I recently moved, and my fermentation freezer is now in a garage that constantly smells wretched from various trash items placed in the garbage can. I can't imagine there is a lack of nasty bacteria and wild yeast in the air.

I've been pouring the hot wort into my bucket and putting the airlock on, and then placing the bucket in the freezer to cool over night, but I'm afraid that maybe the suck back when the temperature drops is sucking in some of this pure nastiness. I'm pretty sure I'd be getting the same bad results even if I was using my wort chiller, but I'm definitely an unhappy brewer right now. :-(

LVBen said:

After having some very successful no-chill batches, I've had a series of bad batches that might be infected. I recently moved, and my fermentation freezer is now in a garage that constantly smells wretched from various trash items placed in the garbage can. I can't imagine there is a lack of nasty bacteria and wild yeast in the air.

I've been pouring the hot wort into my bucket and putting the airlock on, and then placing the bucket in the freezer to cool over night, but I'm afraid that maybe the suck back when the temperature drops is sucking in some of this pure nastiness. I'm pretty sure I'd be getting the same bad results even if I was using my wort chiller, but I'm definitely an unhappy brewer right now. :-(

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Ben, I might just have the solution for you. I have been DYING for some no chiller to give me feedback on my idea...give me a sec to grab the link

Ok here it is....https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/question-no-chillers-not-pitching-yeast-right-away-265805/

NO CHILLERS Please give me some feedback on this...even if you think it is the worst idea ever!

After doing a bunch of no-chill batches my IPAs suck doing this method. I'm losing aroma in a month's time after carbonating in bottles. I just dumped a whole bunch of PtE clone recipe bottles because they blow. Sure I could have drank them but screw that. My belgians using this method have been great so no problems there. I think my next IPA will get chilled to see if that helps out my situation. The hop aroma was completely gone when I opened one today.

Oh, I read that when you posted it, but didn't put much thought into it.
However, the more I think about it, the more I think that you are on to something...

I will definitely consider it, but I haven't fully decided on how to approach this problem yet.

A couple of questions for those of you who have successfully no-chilled using pilsner malt:

1. What brand of pilsner malt are you guys using? (eg Weyermann, etc)
2. How long do you boil?
3. What is your normal boil-off rate? (gal/hr)
4. How "vigorous" would you say your boil is? (obviously hard to quantify, just give me an idea if its just barely turning over or a violent frothy boil)
5. What temperature is the wort when you drain into the cube? If you don't know that, how long on average do you wait between switching off the flame and draining, and what are you doing during that time (whirlpooling, just letting it sit while you do other stuff, etc)

The pils I use is either Dingemans or Franco Belges.
I boil for 90 typically
1-2 gal
fairly vigorous depending on the type of beer
I transfer immediately after I turn the flame off. I will whirlpool and crack my kettle valve.

smokinghole said:

After doing a bunch of no-chill batches my IPAs suck doing this method. I'm losing aroma in a month's time after carbonating in bottles. I just dumped a whole bunch of PtE clone recipe bottles because they blow. Sure I could have drank them but screw that. My belgians using this method have been great so no problems there. I think my next IPA will get chilled to see if that helps out my situation. The hop aroma was completely gone when I opened one today.

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There are various methods NC brewers have used to combat this.

One successful one is described here (this brewer has won a number of awards in AU)

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=55801

As a no-chill, no adjustment brewer, I recently brewed a double batch of house APA which relies on frequent late hops for flavour and no chilled half, with the rest run through a plate chiller. Definite difference in the amount of bittering. Aroma, less so but flavour is also different.

For me it's about finding what method works for your system/palate and adjusting your recipes from there. Obviously if you are competition mad then you have other considerations. I mainly brew beer I want to drink.

I use Weyerman Pils, boil for 70-80min and drain to the cube after maybe 5-10 minutes after flame out. I've done perhaps 20 batches of No Chill (including 3 lagers, 2 of which had Pils) and haven't had any infections or off flavors that I attributed to the No Chill.

Just an update on my situation. I racked the first no-chill batch to the secondary after about a week and tasted it (normally I would have let it be, but I needed the primary for another batch). It appears most if not all of the corn/cabbage flavor fermented out. There's a tiny bit of a fruity twang to it, but I am chalking that up to fermenting with S-04 at 72F. I think after some conditioning it will be a very drinkable beer. One of my ex-coworkers is a BJCP judge so I'll see if I can get some to him and have him taste it (without telling him what I did) and see if he detects any DMS. At this point I can't tell if I can actually taste it or if I'm fooling myself...

I also just pitched the yeast on my second no-chill batch. I did the same recipe (Centennial Blonde) but chose Maris Otter for the base grain instead of Pilsner. When I racked into the fermenter, I took a sample for a gravity reading and to taste. I couldn't tell the difference between that wort and others where I've used my immersion chiller (except that it was far cloudier than even the pilsner batch, even though I forgot to use whirlfloc on both batches). I'm going to use US-05 on this batch. It should be a good experiment to see how the different base grain and yeast affects the final beer.

I'm calling that a success, though its flushed out a few things in my process I need to improve. It definitely looks like the pils in my first batch was the culprit (even though I suspect it won't affect the final beer much). Since many people successfully use pilsner malt in no-chill brews, I wonder if my boil isn't vigorous enough. I start with 6.75gal in a 7gal turkey fryer, so I really can't boil that hard without risking boil-overs. I'm planning on getting a larger kettle eventually, so I will see if that changes anything.

Corn/Cabbage does sound like DMS. I haven't experienced it in my No Chills, but I guess I boil pretty hard. Since this is likely to be the culprit, I suggest you look into foam control (although it looks like FermCap-S isn't considered food grade anymore).

I've often heard that if you have a fan blowing on the top of your wort, you won't get a boilover. I think it's worth some experimentation on your part to find a way. Perhaps even take a gallon inside and boil it real hard on your stove, while you boil the other 5.75 gal hard on the turkey frier.

I think my problem is with the suck back that occurs when the temperature drops. Nasty stuff is getting into my airlock and then the suck back is pulling the nasty water into my beer before I even get the yeast pitched.

Lesson learned: Use vodka in the airlock.

No chill does have its benefits, but I'm going to switch back to the immersion chiller.

LVBen said:

I think my problem is with the suck back that occurs when the temperature drops. Nasty stuff is getting into my airlock and then the suck back is pulling the nasty water into my beer before I even get the yeast pitched.

Lesson learned: Use vodka in the airlock.

No chill does have its benefits, but I'm going to switch back to the immersion chiller.

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FYI -I have seen, and planned to try, a microfilter that you can rig up in place of an airlock for suckback. It's supposed to prevent bacteria from making their way into your wort.

It's an inline filter, so I imagine you could stick some tubing onto the stalk of your 3-piece airlock, and run it downwards and stick the microfilter into the end. Not only would the microfilter prevent the bugs from getting in, but the access to the container would be in an upwards direction. Not really handy for bacteria.

LVBen said:

I think my problem is with the suck back that occurs when the temperature drops. Nasty stuff is getting into my airlock and then the suck back is pulling the nasty water into my beer before I even get the yeast pitched.

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Don't do No Chill in a bucket. First of all, the bucket probably isn't rated food-safe at 200F+, while a "real" No Chill jerrycan is. Second, whatever you use should seal up air tight, so that a vaccum is created when the liquid cools and shrinks.

The jerrycans from US Plastics are less than $20 and shipping is only a couple of bucks. It's an investment that has saved me several hours of brewing time, and many, many dozens of gallons of water.

ghpeel said:

Don't do No Chill in a bucket. First of all, the bucket probably isn't rated food-safe at 200F+, while a "real" No Chill jerrycan is. Second, whatever you use should seal up air tight, so that a vaccum is created when the liquid cools and shrinks.

The jerrycans from US Plastics are less than $20 and shipping is only a couple of bucks. It's an investment that has saved me several hours of brewing time, and many, many dozens of gallons of water.

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Every credible source of info that I have seen about HDPE (#2 plastic) says that it is safe up to and beyond boiling temperatures, and all of my buckets are HDPE. If you can find any credible research that says that isn't true, then PLEASE show it to me.

I do agree that an air tight container would be better. I'm not giving up on 'no chill'. I've has some success with 'no chill' in the past with the buckets, but the buckets were in a more sanitary location. I will definitely do whatever I can to vacuum seal the wort in the future when doing 'no chill'.

For now, I also have other reasons for switching back to immersion chilling.

I've done no chill before with a 6 gal Winpak container where I've drilled a hole in the cap and inserted a sanitized stopper and S type airlock with starsan in it. Any air getting vacuum pulled back into the container has to go thru the starsan (vodka would work too).
To help sanitize the top of the container I lean it far enough over for a few minutes so the hot wort touches the top but does not come out the airlock. The next day I pitch yeast, oxygenate and have had good success.

Update on my Huckleberry Honey Ale, which was a no-chill.

This is possibly the best tasting beer I have made to date. There is just the most subtle astringent bitterness, though I believe this will fade in a week (in the sample taste before bottling it was very strong). This beer is extremely hazy though, but very young (2 weeks in Primary, 1 in bottles).

I did another No-chill, house pale ale, even dropped a filthy measuring tape into the chilled wort with no noticeable issues.

Huckleberry honey's astringent bitterness is now completely gone.

I've got an fountain pump that I'm going to explore recirculating ice water to cool my beer down with my IC next go round. It will still save water, and in the winter time, I can brew in my garage without fear of a skating rink!

bmeyer46 said:

I've got an fountain pump that I'm going to explore recirculating ice water to cool my beer down with my IC next go round. It will still save water, and in the winter time, I can brew in my garage without fear of a skating rink!

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I recently switched from a sump pump to a pond pump that is adjustable on the flow. I choked it all the way back on this last brew and recirculated ice water the entire time. I started with more ice than water and let the hot water melt the ice down then added one more addition. Probably 24#'s total on the ice. Took the wort from flame out to 65 degrees in 20 minutes.

I make sure I set the return line form the IC so that it is adding the hot water to the very top of the cooler. This way it has to run thru the ice water bed before it gets back into the pump. I use a cooler that I can let some water out at the bottom if need be if I need to make room for the 2nd addition of ice.

I'm done with no chill brewing for awhile. I'm just not getting the hop profiles that I want like I've been getting with the IC. I'm also considering putting together a pre-chiller so I can cool it even faster.

LVBen said:

I'm done with no chill brewing for awhile. I'm just not getting the hop profiles that I want like I've been getting with the IC. I'm also considering putting together a pre-chiller so I can cool it even faster.

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My favorite way to pre-chill was to fill a corny keg with ice and run my water through there. That said, what aren't you getting from NC? Is it bad or just different from what you've been getting with your chiller?

eulipion2 said:

My favorite way to pre-chill was to fill a corny keg with ice and run my water through there. That said, what aren't you getting from NC? Is it bad or just different from what you've been getting with your chiller?

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I'm getting more of the grassy, earthy, and and in some cases vegetal flavors from the hops instead of the citrusy and floral flavors that I'm looking for. Dry hopping helps, but it is still missing the proper balance.

Im totally going to NC for my next batch. This thread rules.

LVBen said:

I'm getting more of the grassy, earthy, and and in some cases vegetal flavors from the hops instead of the citrusy and floral flavors that I'm looking for. Dry hopping helps, but it is still missing the proper balance.

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What's your typical hop schedule? I've got an IPA recipe that has hop additions as FWH, Cube Hop, and Dry Hop. It's a pretty beautiful beer. I've never had grassy flavors. Are you using European hops or American?

I say don't give up, experiment!

eulipion2 said:

What's your typical hop schedule? I've got an IPA recipe that has hop additions as FWH, Cube Hop, and Dry Hop. It's a pretty beautiful beer. I've never had grassy flavors. Are you using European hops or American?

I say don't give up, experiment!

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American hops. Don't get me wrong... I've made great beers doing NC, including a pale ale that scored a 39 in NHC 2011.

I was doing 60 minute, 5 minute, and 0 minute hops.

I AM experimenting... that is why I'm going to use my IC for awhile!

File: http://www.box.net/shared/nv7f7u3v93alxeg10r2n

UPDATE: Unfortunately, I had used Pol's original chart and missed the updated one. So, I was bored at work this morning and updated it to use the new chart. I also took the time to allow for odd increments (like 8 minutes). The Conversion Table worksheet now goes from 100 down to 0 with 1 minute intervals. The snapshot and attached file have both been updated with the new versions.

UPDATE #2: I figured out the auto-sorting. So, as you add your additons to the table, it will automatically sort by a hidden column called "Rank". I had to do it via a macro so the new file is an *.XLSM.

UPDATE #3: The file bacame to large to rename to a PDF and attach to this thread. You can find it here: http://www.box.net/shared/nv7f7u3v93alxeg10r2n

I just ordered 4 Winpaks. Yeah...I have a tendancy of jumping in with both feet. But I guess I also look at it as 108 pages of replies as and indication of pretty good success. Coupled with the fact that I absolutely HATE cleaning my pump, hoses and CFC, this seemed like an absolute win! So I am going to try my first E-BiaB/No-Chill as soon as I get my containers.

Anyway, for those of you who like POL's hop schedule conversion chart, I have created the same thing in an Excel spreadsheet (attached). I know someone has done this in the past but when I tried to download the file I was told it was corrupted.



All you have to do is fill in the original schedule (amount and hop type are optional...not really needed but seems foolish to leave them out) and it will be converted to POL's schedule. The one thing that I am still trying to figure out is how to get it to auto-sort so it puts FWH first followed by normal additions and then by TRANSFER/DRY HOP..

One word of caution: Your version of Excel may have macros disabled by default. You must allow macros by clicking the button in the picture below and enabling the content. If you do not do this, automatic sorting will not work.



The worksheets are protected so the formulas and conditional formatting cannot be erased. If you want to make any changes, just unprotect the respective sheet.

If you have any feedback or notice any errors, please let me know and I will correct. I hope some of you find this helpful!

John

Holy poop thats awesome! Thank you!

eulipion2 said:

What's your typical hop schedule? I've got an IPA recipe that has hop additions as FWH, Cube Hop, and Dry Hop. It's a pretty beautiful beer. I've never had grassy flavors. Are you using European hops or American?

I say don't give up, experiment!

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Care to share that recipe? I've only done one NC so far (which was a success) and would love to have your recipe documented the NC way of course.

Thanks and cheers!

Update #1 (03OCT11): I am 50 minutes into the 90 minute boil. I hit my pre-boil volume on the nose and my pre-boil OG was 1.051 (1.049 expected). That give me a mash efficiency around 85% (yeah...not supposed to happen with BiaB :fro.

I just added my bittering hops and next on the list is Irish moss and Whirfloc. I plan on whirlpooling for about 20 minutes, let everthting settle for 20 minutes, and then open the valve and transfer to the Winpak. I am going to grab 2 qts. while I do this for my starter. I will also take another gravity reading and see how everything went with the boil.

Update #2 (03OCT11): Final product is in the winpak. My pump was being a PITA so I didn't whirlpool. Honestly, if I can clear this beer pretty well just by cold crashing, I may be done with whirlpooling. Post-boil volume was 6.25 gallons and OG was 1.065...just a hair shy of target 1.068. I could have boiled a little longer but I will just tweak my equipment profile. I think now that I understand how to control the element my boil-off rate wasn't as dramatic. Captured 1200ml for a starter, cooled it and pitched the yeast to it about an hour ago. I'll pitch to the winpak either tomorrow or the next day

Update #3 (06OCT11): Pitched the yeast starter yesterday...3 days after being cubed. We have some mad bubbling going on! Thank god for blowoff tubes. I'm going to let this go for a week in the chest freezer @ 64F. After that, I will take it out and let it ferment for another week @ 68F (ambient temp in my basement).

Update #4 (10OCT11): Just took the winpak out of the fermentation chamber. I will now let it sit for another week @ ambient temp (~68F). Two days from now (12OCT11) I will add the dry hop addition. Dry hops will stay in for 5 days and I will then cold crash for 2 days @ ~37F and then keg.


Ordered 4 Winpaks (and 4 extra caps) on Tuesday night and they are scheduled for delivery on Friday. :rockin: I plan on brewing Monday.

I figure if I am going to do this I am going to go balls out. I am going to brew a recipe that is supposed to NOT play well with both BiaB and no-chill: Victory Hop Devil IPA. My clone recipe and results can be found here (previously brewed twice using more conventional methods):

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/victory-hopdevil-199253/

NOTE: The recipe below has been tweaked to accommodate my equipment updates and does not match the one posted above exactly!




I will make the following hop schedule adjustments to accommodate no-chill:



Quick question: one thing that Pol's chart did not take into consideration was Dry Hopping. Does that remain the same? Dry Hop = Dry Hop?

I will update the top of this post as thing progress (brew day, pitch day, keg day, tasting day, etc.). As I said, I have brewed this twice and both batches were identical. This will be a good test subject for me. That and the fact that my current keg is almost kicked.

John

Dry Hops should remain the same.