A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

Is there a guideline as to the upper limits of sauermalz and lactic acid one would want to add?

3% sauermalz is subtly beneficial to flavor without any suggestion of sourness whatsoever and I believe Weyermann has on its website a recipe for a Berliner Weiße that calls for 8% (IIRC) so clearly there is some sour perception there. I guess I would not go above 4% without trepidation. As always, your best answer will come from experimentation.

First, let me say that the instructions in the original post are very clear. The only ambiguity I saw was,

"For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride"

This was clarified later in the thread, and, if I understand it correctly, this is in addition to the baseline that already adds 1 tsp calcium chloride, so it would total 2 tsp calcium chloride and 1 tsp gyspsum. It may make sense to edit the original post to make this completely clear.

The other piece of info I picked up later in the thread is that for 1 tsp we are assuming 5 g. Perhaps the original post should be converted to grams.

Thanks so much for this.

jeffmeh said:

First, let me say that the instructions in the original post are very clear. The only ambiguity I saw was,

"For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride"

This was clarified later in the thread, and, if I understand it correctly, this is in addition to the baseline that already adds 1 tsp calcium chloride, so it would total 2 tsp calcium chloride and 1 tsp gyspsum. It may make sense to edit the original post to make this completely clear.

The other piece of info I picked up later in the thread is that for 1 tsp we are assuming 5 g. Perhaps the original post should be converted to grams.

Thanks so much for this.

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I'm pretty sure it is one of each. Calcium chloride for the baseline PLUS one of gypsum if you wish to accentuate hope bitterness. Yooper posted the sticky from her account so AJ can't do a direct edit.

Hermit said:

I'm pretty sure it is one of each. Calcium chloride for the baseline PLUS one of gypsum if you wish to accentuate hope bitterness. Yooper posted the sticky from her account so AJ can't do a direct edit.

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No, but if AJ wants me to edit the post, I'll certainly be willing! I am LOVING this water chemistry primer.

I also appreciate that it's not called "Water Chemistry for Dummies"! This is still quite a bit over my head, but the light is going on mroe and more for me and my last beers, brewed a couple of weeks ago, are definitely "shining" more than before.

One question- I saw a question about the max % of sauermaltz recommended before flavor changes occurred. I also saw the question about lactic acid. I have never used lactic acid to adjust mash pH but one of my friends does. At what point do you get a flavor from the lactic acid?

I'd certainly like clarification on those questions if possible. My assumption was that for British/Pales we were to add 1 tsp of each (gypsum and cal chl). Also, I've been assuming a tsp of gypsum = 4 grams while a tsp of cal chl = 3.4 grams. Those figures were given in Palmer's book so that's what I've been using personally and what I've given as information in my brew chart. If we're supposed to be assuming something different I'd love to know so that both myself and anyone using my brew chart have the best available info.

Thanks.

cp

CPooley4 said:

I'd certainly like clarification on those questions if possible. My assumption was that for British/Pales we were to add 1 tsp of each (gypsum and cal chl). Also, I've been assuming a tsp of gypsum = 4 grams while a tsp of cal chl = 3.4 grams. Those figures were given in Palmer's book so that's what I've been using personally and what I've given as information in my brew chart. If we're supposed to be assuming something different I'd love to know so that both myself and anyone using my brew chart have the best available info.

Thanks.

cp

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I'm pretty sure AJ has said that the amounts aren't super critical. Think about it. This is just a starting point and doesn't take grain bill into account. In the end, this is cooking and everything is done 'to taste' so to speak. This is where science and art start to merge. You can always just take a teaspoon and measure one out on your scale.

I get that and agree. However, if his assumptions are easily available I'd like to have the correct assumptions is all.

By the way, I wish I was from an alternate universe sometimes myself

The intention was that it would be 1 tsp (5 grams) calcium chloride as the base line. If you wished to emphasize hops (as you would in many British styles) you would add 1 tsp of gypsum in addition to that original tsp of CaCl2.2H2O for a total of 1 tsp of each. But it then goes on to say for minerally beers (such as Burton ales) that you should double the salts (2 tsp of each).

Thanks AJ, really appreciate it.

Are you then assuming 5 grams per tsp of Gypsum as well?

5 grams Gypsum is more like 1 TBL, not 1 tsp. But I wouldn't measure like that, its well worth the $10 on ebay for Digi's.

OK, I weighed it out:

1 tsp gypsum = 3 g
1 TBL " " = 9 g

I've gotten 4 grams when measuring on my digi scale for gypsum. Probably depends upon whether you're doing a rounded tsp or straight tsp. Still good to know what AJ's assumptions are for his water profile recommendations so we can all adjust accordingly with the EZ Calc or whatever program you're using.

Calcium chloride is in nice little spheres which pack together pretty uniformly. Gypsum, by contrast, is fluffy so you will have variation according as to how tightly it is packed and how "level" the teaspoon is. Just sticking a teaspoon into the jar and dumping it onto the balance without much regard for leveling (but you certainly couldn't call it heaping) I got 6 grams. A carefully leveled teaspoonful from the same jar came in at 3.6 grams.

It really is better to weigh it out.

Ajdelange,

Thanks for the response. I was able to calibrate my ph meter so, thankfully, I didn't mess that up! I guess I misunderstood the add 1 and double for hoppy beers...

I brew my IPA frequently so i will try again and scale back on my additions.

Thanks aj. So for your water recommendations is it safe to say you are assuming 5 grams for gypsum?

Also, are you considering apa and ipa in the British category or minerally beers category for you recommendations?

Looks like Kai has a new addition on his web site (at least I haven't seen it before) - an easy to visualize model of pH buffers:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/A_simple_Model_for_pH_Buffers

Lots of other interesting info. over there, too.

I'm just now getting to 'post-fermentation' with some of my beers since acquiring a pH meter and using this primer (although I haven't tasted any of them yet, a con of having a pipeline I guess). I've noticed that my post-fermentation pH is a little lower than expected. With a pre-fermentation pH of 5.45-ish I'm getting 4.2-ish after fermentation (using sauermalz in mash). There is a comment in one of Kai's pH articles about really soft water not having enough buffering ability so the yeast take the pH too low. I am using a high % of RO (80% up to 95% for yesterday's Boh Pils) because it seems I have to in order to get good pH without using a ton of sauermalz.

Is this anything to be concerned about (and is it normal)? Using mostly RO and sauermalz it seems I'm trying to decrease the buffering ability (so the sauermalz and roast/crystal malts can reduce pH enough) but then post-boil it appears that I may need more buffering ability. Would adding a very small amount of CaCO3 at the end of the boil help? Would it counter any sourness perception?

Lastly, is the ability to reduce pH during fermentation yeast strain dependant? Do certain strains do this better than others?

SpanishCastleAle said:

I'm just now getting to 'post-fermentation' with some of my beers since acquiring a pH meter and using this primer (although I haven't tasted any of them yet, a con of having a pipeline I guess). I've noticed that my post-fermentation pH is a little lower than expected. With a pre-fermentation pH of 5.45-ish I'm getting 4.2-ish after fermentation (using sauermalz in mash)...
Is this anything to be concerned about (and is it normal)?

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Entirely normal and the sign of a healthy ferment. Most finished beer comes in between 4.2 and 4.8 with the lagers generally in the upper part of that range and the ales generally in the lower. Some ales and, of course, sour beers, will have pH less than 4.2. Lagers above 4.8 doubtless exist but I'd be concerned if pH got that high in one of mine.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Using mostly RO and sauermalz it seems I'm trying to decrease the buffering ability (so the sauermalz and roast/crystal malts can reduce pH enough) but then post-boil it appears that I may need more buffering ability. Would adding a very small amount of CaCO3 at the end of the boil help? Would it counter any sourness perception?

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Yes, the object in using low mineral water is to get rid of carbonate thus lowering the buffering capacity (alkalinity) of the water so that the lactic in the sauermalz can effect a pH shift but no, you don't need to replace that as your beer pH is falling in the right place. Now if it is a lager that is coming in at 4.2 we might scratch our heads a bit but there are those that would add acid to your kettle to get knockout pH down to 5 - 5.2. I'm not advocating that for now - wait until you taste the beers. Acid in the kettle might be something to try at a later date when fine tuning recipe/procedure.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Lastly, is the ability to reduce pH during fermentation yeast strain dependant? Do certain strains do this better than others?

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Yes. That is, I assume, why lagers tend to come in at pH higher than ales.

Last brew day I took mash pH vs temperature measurements to try to verify the commonly published shift amounts. In a sample from the protein rest I found a shift of -0.0057 pH/°C and from mashout, -0.0052. Averaging those would give -0.0055. I'm not advertising this number as any more than what it is - the number I got using RO water with Weyermann's floor malted Pils with some carafoam and sauermalz in one brew on one day.

Anyway calling room temperature 21°C and assuming mash temperature of 65°C (149°F) the shift would be 0.242 which is a little lower than the 0.3 that is commonlu thown out so that 5.47 would map to 5.23.

-TH- said:

Is that 5.47 at room temp? Then the pH at mash temp would be what - say 5.3 ish?

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That's a good question. I was assuming that I would be taking a reading at room temp and expecting 5.47. Is that correct?

Yes, 5.4 to 5.5 at room temperature is, IMO, ideal. But you'll see lots of other ranges quoted as being optimum. Unfortunately, you often can't tell what temperature they are talking about. DeClerck states that all his pH's are for room temperature. Other authors omit this statement but I think it is safe to assume that most measurements are at room temperature.

ajdelange said:

Yes, 5.4 to 5.5 at room temperature is, IMO, ideal. But you'll see lots of other ranges quoted as being optimum. Unfortunately, you often can't tell what temperature they are talking about. DeClerck states that all his pH's are for room temperature. Other authors omit this statement but I think it is safe to assume that most measurements are at room temperature.

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Thanks for the clarification.

ajdelange said:

Now if it is a lager that is coming in at 4.2 we might scratch our heads a bit...

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Latest 4.2 post-ferm pH was a Vienna lager using White Labs WLP833 German Bock yeast. It's only ~2 weeks old so it'll be a while before I get around to drinking it. Brewed a Boh Pils with the cake so I'll have another measurement in a couple of weeks (but no taste for a couple of months).

I might 'need' that 4.2 for the Boh Pils though...found a friggin fruit fly in the wort just as I started to rack it! Could have happened during cooling. Luckily it had krausen about 6 hours after pitching (cold) so maybe it'll be OK.

4.2 is low for Vienna - all mine come in around 4.6 so I'm a little puzzled. Meter was calibrated day of measurement? Buffers were fresh? Smells clean and tastes OK (no infections)? What yeast strain?

If a sample tastes clean, then I wouldn't worry. You did everything right and pH's fell in place along the way. The beer should be fine.

ajdelange said:

4.2 is low for Vienna - all mine come in around 5.6 so I'm a little puzzled. Meter was calibrated day of measurement? Buffers were fresh? Smells clean and tastes OK (no infections)? What yeast strain?

If a sample tastes clean, then I wouldn't worry. You did everything right and pH's fell in place along the way. The beer should be fine.

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I assume you mean 4.6?

Yeast was WLP833 German Bock yeast. Meter was cal'd day before and FWIW, when my meter has gone out of cal it has gone high every time. Beer tasted yeasty but OK otherwise.

Yes.

Is there any reason I shouldn't use 5.2 Stabilizer to control pH?

emjay said:

Is there any reason I shouldn't use 5.2 Stabilizer to control pH?

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If you reword the question slightly to "Is there any reason I can't use 5.2 Stabilizer to control pH?" then the answer is yes, there are a couple. They have been set forth so often here that I'll only give the top level answer that the product does not work in most cases (no one with a pH meter on this or any other forum I'm aware of has seen it do what we expect it to do) and it adds a lot of sodium to the brew.

ajdelange said:

If you reword the question slightly to "Is there any reason I can't use 5.2 Stabilizer to control pH?" then the answer is yes, there are a couple. They have been set forth so often here that I'll only give the top level answer that the product does not work in most cases (no one with a pH meter on this or any other forum I'm aware of has seen it do what we expect it to do) and it adds a lot of sodium to the brew.

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Ah, I apologize if it's been asked so much. My PC is dead ATM and I'm posting on my cell phone; my Android browser really doesn't like the search function on this site - it closes the pull-down as soon as I go to type in the text field. I promise I'm not just being obnoxiously lazy

Thanks for the reply though.

Water can ruin your day in 2 ways:
1. It can cause mash pH to be too high. This usually results in dull flavors - an insipid beer.
2. There can be something in the water which causes an off flavor to appear
a)Chloramine - bandaid, plastic,smokey taste
b)Geosmines etc. - musty taste
c)Excess of chloride paired with sodium/potassium - salty taste
d)High content of some metallic ion such as copper, iron or zinc - metallic taste
e)High sulfate content - harsh hops bitterness.
f)Something else I don't know about or have forgotten about.

As he hit mash pH the problem isn't 1) and must be one of the items in 2.

ajdelange said:

Water can ruin your day in 2 ways:
1. It can cause mash pH to be too high. This usually results in dull flavors - an insipid beer.
2. There can be something in the water which causes an off flavor to appear
a)Chloramine - bandaid, plastic,smokey taste
b)Geosmines etc. - musty taste
c)Excess of chloride paired with sodium/potassium - salty taste
d)High content of some metallic ion such as copper, iron or zinc - metallic taste
e)High sulfate content - harsh hops bitterness.
f)Something else I don't know about or have forgotten about.

As he hit mash pH the problem isn't 1) and must be one of the items in 2.

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AJ, I meant to ask you before- at what point does lactic acid or sauermalz become discernible? 3% for the malt? What about for the lactic acid?

I know my sparge water is too alkaline, that's why I ask. Not so much for mash pH, but for sparging. Can a wee bit of lactic acid be added for the sparge to keep the pH under control during the sparge?

Sauermalz is discernible at 3% but not for sourness but rather a subtle complexity. IMO that is one of the advantages to using it, at least in lagers. It really adds something to the taste. I'm certain one could go higher before sourness was detectable but I'm not sure how much higher. I expect it depends on the beer and the taster. As Weyermann recommends 8% (IIRC) for a pseudo Berliner Weiße I think we're safe in assuming that's too much (unless trying to do a Weiße). I certainly think you are OK adding a bit of lactic acid to the sparge water for pH control.

Pardon me for being a moron, but...

Is calcium chloride dihydrate the same as calcium chloride?

CaCl the same as CaCl2?

If really delving down into the nitty-gritty of water chemistry one has to consider the formation of ion pairs such as CaCl+ which come about because a solution of calcium chloride has mobile doubly charged calcium ions and mobile singly charges chloride ions loose and moving about. The positive charge on a calcium ion will attract a negatively charged chloride ion forming the pair but just as the bonds between Ca++ and the pair of chloride ions are easily disrupted during solvation with water so would a single bond with a single chloride ion and the pair wouldn't be long lived.

If you filled a container with calcium vapor and admitted 1 chlorine atom I suppose 1 molecule of CaCl would be formed as a chlorine radical will be pretty grabby for an electron from the first calcium it encounters.

CaClF exists though.

Guess I should have stated the reason for asking...

The prescribed formula lists "calcium chloride dihydrate (what your beer store sells)" Online beer stores offer calcium chloride. Just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

Googling "calcium chloride dihydrate" gave results listing CaCl2. Online vendors don't offer any designation.

arturo7 said:

The prescribed formula lists "calcium chloride dihydrate (what your beer store sells)" Online beer stores offer calcium chloride. Just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

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Turns out I'm glad you asked that question. I've always used the dihydrate obtained from a chemical supplier because it is more stable i.e. it doesn't pick up water from the air which makes it easier to weigh accurately, it won't turn soupy on you if you leave it out etc. Now I happen to have some of LD Carlson's from the LHBS which is labeled Calcium Chloride without saying anything about the waters of hydration so as common sense would dictate that it's also the dihydrate for the reasons given above I always assumed that it had to be. But your question got me wondering. Had I ever checked it? Couldn't remember. I hit on the idea of putting the same amount of the stuff I know to be the dihydrate and the LD Carlson stuff into equal volumes of water and measuring the conductivity (no need to fiddle with all the stuff for a calcium hardness or chloride ion test). To my great surprise the LD Carlson measured 35% greater conductivity. A given weight of anhydrous calcium chloride (CaCl2) has 32% more calcium and chloride ions in it than the dihydrate (CaCl2.2H2O). So the LD Carlson offering appears to be the anhydrous. To confirm this I put about half a gram on the balance and left it exposed to room air for about 45 min. It gained 3% in weight in this time (room humidity 23% - it doubtless picked up most of the moisture when I was near the balance exhaling water vapor).

So if you get it from LD Carlson it is anhydrous. The LD Carlson stuff is in the prill (little sphere) form. That may protect it from water pick up so that it doesn't turn to soup as soon as you open the jar. If you get it from a different packager then it's anyone's guess. If it is in the prill form it is probably from the same source as LD Carlson's and probably anhydrous.

The recommendation "1 tsp per 5 gallons" is pretty approximate. It assumes the dihydrate and that the dihydrate weighs about 5 grams per tsp. This would yield about 72 mg/L calcium ion concentration and and 127 mg/L chloride. Using the same amount of anhydrous salt would increase calcium and chloride by about 32% to 95 and 169.

So they are not the same, but they work the same at equal quantities?

ajdelange said:

I've always used the dihydrate obtained from a chemical supplier because it is more stable i.e. it doesn't pick up water from the air which makes it easier to weigh accurately, it won't turn soupy on you if you leave it out etc.

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So would a good way to find out what you have be to leave a small amount sitting around in the open for some time (hours/days?) and see if it turns soupy?

At the risk of excessive horse beating, I'm trying to reconcile the original "baseline" rule of thumb with "conventional brewing wisdom" (using EZ 2.0)...

My water is sub 20ppm for everything but CaCO3 which is 90ppm. Diluting 2:1 with RO and adding back 5 grams of calcium chloride basically gives me 90ppm Ca, 140ppm Cl and almost nothing else. So no Mg, Na, or SO4 are really needed? This also results in a chloride to sulfate ratio of over 34 for me. We're really chucking that whole chloride / sulfate concept in the toilet, aren't we? Maybe that's a good thing...

I do get a good predicted pH of 5.31 with 2% sauermalz on a simple 2-row pale ale, but even with no RO dilution, my predicted pH is still 5.35. Why the 35ppm cap on CaCO3 when (at least in my circumstance) there doesn't appear to be much difference between 30ppm and the un-diluted 90?

ajdelange said:

The recommendation "1 tsp per 5 gallons" is pretty approximate. It assumes the dihydrate and that the dihydrate weighs about 5 grams per tsp. This would yield about 72 mg/L calcium ion concentration and and 127 mg/L chloride. Using the same amount of anhydrous salt would increase calcium and chloride by about 32% to 95 and 127.

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I assume this was a typo and you meant 95 and 169. If this is the case, using the anhydrous LD Carlson, the "baseline" would be 3.8 grams in 5 gal, correct?