Gelatin in Lager Primary Prior to Keg...

The existing situation: Pilsner, fermented @ 54f for 2 weeks, currently d-resting in primary in the warmroom.

The plan: Bring it down to the basement (58f ambient), add gelatin finings to primary, leave @ 58f for another 2 weeks. Rack to keg, lager @40f in chest freezer until I'm ready to tap it.

What say ye? I'm force-carbing and serving kegs from my lagerator right now, so I don't have room for a carboy in there. I'd like to get it as clear as possible before going into the keg, hence the gelatin. Will 2 weeks @ 58f with gelatin in the primary do anything?

I've never had to use finings in my beers, but lagers especially. Why not get your primary down to 35F or so for a couple days just prior to racking to keg. Also, make sure your dip tube isn't litereally touching the bottom of the keg. I like a 3/8" gap or so to avoid sucking up any sediment that does form.

Yeah, I suppose I could evacuate the kegs from the lagerator for a couple days...

Do you just cut the dip tube with a hacksaw, or what? I'm not sure what my gaps look like, but I was thinking about that very same mod if necessary.

Hack saw works fine, then just debur with some sandpaper or a cone shaped grinder on the dremel if you're really fancy about it.

I use gelatin but crash cool it to 33-34F and leave for 4-5 days. I get crystal clear beer that way and the cold break is dropped out as well.

For the dip tube the owner of my LHBS suggested using a short U shaped piece of tubing on the end of the dip tube. It saves you from having to cut the tube and leaves you with the flexibility of draining the keg from the bottom or not.

GT

In my humble opinion, you really shouldn't do that. The small bit of yeast still in suspension works to clean up some fermentation byproducts that will clean the taste a bit more.
It would be way better if you finned after secondary/lagering.

As well the colder temps will precipatate a lot of yeast in secondary and you may not need to fine it at all.

That's a good point, the lagering phase does need yeast. Cutting the dip tube is a good way to lager in the keg and still have the yeast fall out low enough not to cause haze problems later when you start dispensing.

Every time someone suggests cutting the dip tube a bit, someone offers another way of getting the same thing without cutting. I find it odd. The first suggestion is usually to bend the dip tube so the end raises up over the bottom. I tried putting even a gentle bend into mine and couldn't get it in the post opening. I couldn't imagine it working if I bent it enough. Maybe the clearence is different on ball locks.

The second one about using a U shaped tube... well if you had enough room to have a piece of tubing on the bottom, you wouldn't need to cut. Maybe it's different with ball locks, but pinlock dip tubes seem to TOUCH the bottom literally. I took about 1/4" off of each of mine and it leaves probably 4-6 oz of beer in the bottom when the keg kicks. Why would I ever regret cutting them? We're not talking about taking an inch off.

Back to the OP's topic though, I'd at least bring the primary down to lager temps for a couple days in primary, THEN rack to the keg. It will help get some of the larger sediment to crash out to minimize what you have to deal with in the keg.

But how much work is the yeast really doing at 38-40ºf? I figured most of the clean-up would take place right now, during the diacetyl rest and subsequent slow cooling.

Evan! said:

But how much work is the yeast really doing at 38-40ºf? I figured most of the clean-up would take place right now, during the diacetyl rest and subsequent slow cooling.

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I concur that it would be better for you to rack to a keg with shortened dip tube, place that into the fridge and carbonate it while it is in there, then rack to the serving keg or serve from that keg. I like to rack to a serving keg b/c I don't want to worry about moving it. If you still want to use Gelatin, add it to the lagering keg 1 wk before racking.

The boo boo and Bobby are correct in that yeast is benefical for lagering. Though it doesn't have as much to do as it would if you would have gone to lagering with a significant amount of fermentable sugars left, it can't hurt to have some in there. And I also wouldn't feel comfortable leaving the beer on the primary yeast cake for that long.

Kai

Kaiser said:

I concur that it would be better for you to rack to a keg with shortened dip tube, place that into the fridge and carbonate it while it is in there, then rack to the serving keg or serve from that keg. I like to rack to a serving keg b/c I don't want to worry about moving it. If you still want to use Gelatin, add it to the lagering keg 1 wk before racking.

The boo boo and Bobby are correct in that yeast is benefical for lagering. Though it doesn't have as much to do as it would if you would have gone to lagering with a significant amount of fermentable sugars left, it can't hurt to have some in there. And I also wouldn't feel comfortable leaving the beer on the primary yeast cake for that long.

Kai

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It's been on primary for about 2.5 weeks as of right now (it took way too long to finish, because that stupid W34/70 strain wouldn't do much of anything until I warmed it up to 60f). It's D-resting at 70f as we speak, and I'll cool it down starting tonight. I doubt I'll worry about cutting the dip tube, I'll probably just rack to a keg, lager in that for 6 weeks or so (with gelatin during the final 2), then rack to another one to force-carb and serve in.

Thanks for all the advice, guys.

Bobby_M said:

That's a good point, the lagering phase does need yeast. Cutting the dip tube is a good way to lager in the keg and still have the yeast fall out low enough not to cause haze problems later when you start dispensing.

Every time someone suggests cutting the dip tube a bit, someone offers another way of getting the same thing without cutting. I find it odd. The first suggestion is usually to bend the dip tube so the end raises up over the bottom. I tried putting even a gentle bend into mine and couldn't get it in the post opening. I couldn't imagine it working if I bent it enough. Maybe the clearence is different on ball locks.

The second one about using a U shaped tube... well if you had enough room to have a piece of tubing on the bottom, you wouldn't need to cut. Maybe it's different with ball locks, but pinlock dip tubes seem to TOUCH the bottom literally. I took about 1/4" off of each of mine and it leaves probably 4-6 oz of beer in the bottom when the keg kicks. Why would I ever regret cutting them? We're not talking about taking an inch off.

Back to the OP's topic though, I'd at least bring the primary down to lager temps for a couple days in primary, THEN rack to the keg. It will help get some of the larger sediment to crash out to minimize what you have to deal with in the keg.

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I hear you Bobby_M, I had to cut my dip tube due to what you described and wish I didn't have to, but there is no room between the dip tube end and the bottom of the keg to attach anything really. I am trying to work out a miniature racking tube diverter end for keg dip tubes. Thinking about something simple at the machine shop with food grade nylon and enough tiny holes surrounding the dip tube that they are the same area as the dip tube opening they are diverting. Should be a pretty simple milling operation or for the Sanke one a drill press would probably get 'er done. I am even trying this for Sankes, because I hate the fact of ruining a Sanke by cutting the dip tube and then changing your mind and not being able to use it. There is nothing readily available right now to do allow this to be done. I don't plan on selling them, but maybe beer trade would be good 1/1 I just like the idea of not having to change something permanently. Machining you could get the nylon to smaller than the distance between the dip tube end and the bottom of the keg. Anyways, future project I need to draw out and measure for, but doable. Watch for the post because it is coming

I agree though that you want that yeast for lagering and cleaning up the beer. Sediment in my kegerator beers gets blown out the first couple of pints anyways so I don't worry a bit. I am always amazed though at how clear the beer is going into the serving keg and then after about a week of resting in the kegerator before tapping it pours a pint of yeast clouded beer. Then, nothing but brilliance. Before I saw this the first time, I didn't know the beer had that much in it, but it sure did. I am not a big yeast fan, and I honestly don't see why anyone would ever need a filter for beer, unless you were packaging professionally and couldn't ensure proper handling or something to the likes.

Evan! said:

because that stupid W34/70 strain wouldn't do much of anything until I warmed it up to 60f

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That's odd, this strain is considered a good fermenter. Has it constantly been performing poorly.

Kai

I used a gentle bend so that that the tube hits the side of the keg.

Kaiser said:

That's odd, this strain is considered a good fermenter. Has it constantly been performing poorly.

Kai

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It's my first try with that strain. I was a little weirded out because it didn't come in a Fermentis sachet, it came in a little antistatic bag with AHS's label on it. Whatever. But yeah, after 10 days @ 54f (its supposed optimal temp) it had only dropped by like 9 points. So I brought it up to 60f, and it started churning like it's supposed to. Dropped it back down and it finished at 55-56f.

I'm beginning to think that the dip tube to post hole clearance is a little larger on ball locks. I put like a 1/2 degree bend in mine just to test it out but the tube fits so tight that ANY bend makes it impossible to get the tube back in.

I'm never going to miss that 1/4" off the bottom. Now, I have heard of people using these kegs as literal secondaries where 1/4-1/2" of trub is expected. In those cases, you'd either need some kind of diverter as Wortmonger describes or you'd have to cut 3/4" off and dedicate that one to a secondary.

Yeah, I think a bend in the Corny is better than a diverter. I'm still going for the Sanke diverter though

I keep reading about cutting the dip tube etc... why would just pouring out the first pint not work? Wouldn't that have any sediment you were going to have in it? I feel like I am missing something here. (working on my first lager.. only 2 weeks into fermentation)

I filter now, but when I didn't... I only had yeast in the first pint or two. I didn't worry about it. When you are talking about a 15 gallon batch, it is trivial the amount that gets transferred. That one to two pints turns into the first pint being hazy in my serving kegs after the transfer with no cut or bent tubing. I still want to try gelatin though and see what it brings to the table for me.