Starting a little more advanced

Barnesie said:

The problem is that you're asking the wrong question. "Advanced" doesn't mean anything in making beer. Advanced can mean technique, volume, specialized equipment, difficult recipes, lagers instead of ales, etc. Advanced compared to never having brewed before is even more subjective....so when you want to start "a little more advanced" then someone might advise you to start with partial mash instead of full extract, or they might say to brew 10 gallons instead of 5, or they might say to make an open-fermentation wild brew, or they might say to make a lager instead of an ale, or they might say to build an all electric eHERMs with a fermentation chamber and full digital PID-doohickies everywhere.

Do yourself a favor and take the time to look up BIAB. Just look it up before you go any further because I sincerely think that's a better path for you then trying to dive into building a brewing sculpture, especially when you can make essentially the exact same beer on a much smaller investment that can grow into a three tiered system if you ever need that.

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BIAB sounds perfect. Didn't mean to get ahead of myself, but no one suggested that. Looks like it will give me more control with less expense. Thx bro

Also, don't get hung up on the extract thing. A good beer made with extracts is still good beer. Mashing all-grain is just making sugar water which is essentially super diluted extract. I enjoy mashing, but it's a huge pain in the ass and adds tons of time for absolutely minimal returns. All it really does is save a few bucks and it will take me years to recoup enough to cover the difference in equipment costs.

Remember that your job is just to make flavorful wort - the yeast makes the beer. If you make an extract beer, pitch a healthy amount of good yeast and control your fermentation temperature well, your beer will be better then any All-Grain brew shoved into a hot closet.

robbdmc said:

BIAB sounds perfect. Didn't mean to get ahead of myself, but no one suggested that. Looks like it will give me more control with less expense. Thx bro

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what exactly do you want to "control?"

The only thing not controllable with extract is "exactly" how fermentable it is, but I bet it is normally pretty good for the majority of recipes.

rklinck said:

As for your suggestion that bottling equipment is a waste, I tend to disagree.

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I do as well. What is "bottling equipment" anyway? Maybe $25 and some reused bottles? That's less than the cost of one beater keg... I'm not saying you have to bottle first as a rite of passage or anything, but unless you know for sure you're going to be sticking with the hobby (or have a brewery nearby where you can get your kegs filled with someone else's beer), I think it makes more sense to start off with a wing capper and minimal bottling setup.

robbdmc said:

Not trying to take a shot at anyone. I've said multiple times that I'm greatful for everyone's responses. Just looking for some recommendations on how to start "a little more advanced" like the thread title states.

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I'm not sure I understand your reason for wanting to start "a little more advanced." Sometimes the best advice answers the question that should have been asked, not the question that was asked...

Obviously, do what you please and ignore this if you're dead set on jumping in with both feet, but I think you're mistaking "simple" for "simplistic." Like bottling vs kegging, you're looking at skipping a very small outlay to instead jump right to a huge upfront investment. As was noted above, there's very little in a basic kit that's not likely to come in handy in the future, so you're not really spending a whole lot on equipment that will become obsolete.

If you're fairly confident that your interest in brewing will be long-term, my suggestion would be to put together a simple basic kit with components that can be adapted to your more sophisticated ambitions. This will get you up and brewing faster, and the sooner you start making mistakes, the sooner you're going to stop making them (or, more accurately, learn how to mitigate them).

BBL_Brewer said:

You need to get your feet wet before you even start to entertain the idea of going pro (Nano). There's a million ways to skin this cat, and rushing into it will probably only hinder your progress. I recommend getting a 9 or 10 gallon boil kettle, a descent starter kit, a wort chiller, and a burner of some kind. This will allow you to brew extract and all grain BIAB with ease. You could upgrade that by adding a cooler mash tun down the road. You'll have minimal money invested this way and even if you upgrade to a larger system later, most (if not all) of this euipment will still be useful to have. If not, you can always sell it. Once you get some experience under your belt, you'll be much more capable of deciding where you want to go as a brewer and how to make that happen equipment wise.

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Of all the advice given, I think this best accomplishes the goal of the OP. The only thing I would add is to make sure your boil kettle has a valve. If you want to up the size of the kettle, that would be another option.

Brew clubs are a great source for used equipment.

rpe290 said:

what exactly do you want to "control?"

The only thing not controllable with extract is "exactly" how fermentable it is, but I bet it is normally pretty good for the majority of recipes.

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I'd go so far as to say that, when you're starting out, you sure as hell don't even want that control. Extract is all but guaranteed to be adequate quality for making most of the beers you might want to make. The same cannot be said for your own mash.

There are a lot of steps involved in going from grain to beer. None of them is complicated, and it's really easy to properly sanitize for each step. But when you put them all together, there are enough of them that you're not likely to get through the whole process without screwing something up. If you're exceptionally lucky, you will know what mistake you made. In most cases, you'll come back and post one of these, "My beer tastes like sweaty armpit, what did I do wrong?" threads. Starting with extract lets you prove your fermentation ability and gain some confidence in that without worrying that maybe your mistake was in the mash.

robbdmc said:

Not trying to take a shot at anyone. I've said multiple times that I'm greatful for everyone's responses. Just looking for some recommendations on how to start "a little more advanced" like the thread title states.

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If you really want to start a little more advanced and want to avoid buying stuff that will be useless later, go with Barnesie's suggestion of BIAB. You can easily do a partial mash BIAB (say using 3 lbs of DME to supplement a mash of about 5 pounds of malt). If you want to avoid spending money on things that will be a waste now, just make sure the kettle you get is large enough to grow with you. There is a great sticky at the top of this forum about partial mash BIAB. I reviewed it before my first partial mash, and I have hit my expected OG every time.

A partial mash pretty well gives you as much "control" as you need. Every beer recipe will include a large amount of base malt. You can simply swap some of that out with extra light DME. If you decide that you really love brewing, you may decide it's worth moving to all grain after a while, but you will not need to.

Have you considered induction burners? They are about 300/each and use electricity rather than gas to boil, strike.

zeg said:

I'd go so far as to say that, when you're starting out, you sure as hell don't even want that control. Extract is all but guaranteed to be adequate quality for making most of the beers you might want to make. The same cannot be said for your own mash.

There are a lot of steps involved in going from grain to beer. None of them is complicated, and it's really easy to properly sanitize for each step. But when you put them all together, there are enough of them that you're not likely to get through the whole process without screwing something up. If you're exceptionally lucky, you will know what mistake you made. In most cases, you'll come back and post one of these, "My beer tastes like sweaty armpit, what did I do wrong?" threads. Starting with extract lets you prove your fermentation ability and gain some confidence in that without worrying that maybe your mistake was in the mash.

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Listen to Zeg. . .

Just yesterday, I was getting advice from him on how to reduce the residual sweetness in a dry stout recipe because I had neglected an important part of recipe formulation.

:rockin:I've been watching this thread off and on most of the day. Your quest for a decision on how to start has somehow captured my attention more than usual. I posted earlier and gave you my opinion and I stand by it. But, I have to tell you that my heart sank when you posted that you had made your decision to build a three tier "system". I have more hope for your brewing future now that you are heading towards BIAB. So, why am I posting again? There are a few things I think you can get out of this thread:

1. This place is a deep and vast knowledge resource with countless knowledgeable members full of countless experience-based opinions. Some of them contradict eachother and some of them confirm eachother. I cannot begin to quantify what I have learned on HBT over the past couple of years.

2. Most on HBT post because they care about homebrewing and they care about your question. They want you to make the "right" decision in their eyes.

3. No matter what you decide, someone will tell you to do differently (i.e. you can't make everyone happy). This is about making you happy.

I hope you enjoy homebrewing and I hope you become "obsessed" with it like so many of us already are. It's about the process and the product (BEER :rockin. By process I mean the learning process. For me, that's what makes it so enjoyable (and the great BEER :rockin! My first batch was a Mr. Beer extract. That's about as simple as you can get. Put some hopped extract in hot water, cool it down, pitch yeast, and wait. I felt like I screwed up a million things doing that batch. I learned! And I loved every minute of it. I still do (which is why I am on HBT). I guess my point is, don't be afraid to start off simple and learn.

BIAB may be a good starting point for you. But, you still need many of the tools you will find in a good homebrew starter kit (I still prefer my buckets over carboy's for fermenting). Try an extract kit with specialty grains. Learn. Then up the ante (BIAB). Learn some more. You will make good beer, get more enthusiastic about it, and become obsessed.

NewJersey said:

start with batch sparging instead of flying sparge- many headaches eliminated. scarifice being efficiency. no biggy to me personally
the biab thing seems kinda cool, but not what the original poster is after

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Oh, really? Can you elaborate? Most everyone is saying BIAB is what I should do.

rpe290 said:

what exactly do you want to "control?"

The only thing not controllable with extract is "exactly" how fermentable it is, but I bet it is normally pretty good for the majority of recipes.

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Yeah, thats why I was trying to do all grain. I can start with extract, but ultimately I want to be able to really customize my beers and experiment once I get comfortable with the process. So equipment that I could do both with would be optimal.

Barnesie said:

Also, don't get hung up on the extract thing. A good beer made with extracts is still good beer. Mashing all-grain is just making sugar water which is essentially super diluted extract. I enjoy mashing, but it's a huge pain in the ass and adds tons of time for absolutely minimal returns. All it really does is save a few bucks and it will take me years to recoup enough to cover the difference in equipment costs.

Remember that your job is just to make flavorful wort - the yeast makes the beer. If you make an extract beer, pitch a healthy amount of good yeast and control your fermentation temperature well, your beer will be better then any All-Grain brew shoved into a hot closet.

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I gotchya... I will prob start with extract, but I just want to be sure I have a system that can easily be ready for all grain so I can fully customize my beer.

The_Cleveland_Brew_Shop said:

Have you considered induction burners? They are about 300/each and use electricity rather than gas to boil, strike.

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Are there big benefits to using induction long term? I thought I read that they take quite a bit longer to get hot, which is ok as long as theres some bigger benefit to using them.

RuffRider said:

I hope you enjoy homebrewing and I hope you become "obsessed" with it like so many of us already are.

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Thanks man! I'm already addicted and I haven't even started

So to summarize, I should get:

Starter Kit
9 or 10 gal boil kettle with valve
wort chiller
burner (induction or gas)

Kegerator
keg
c02

possible future upgrade:
cooler mash tun

This setup allows me to brew from extract and all grain BIAB. Also, lets me start small, and get as complex as I want down the road, right?

Any corrections to my list? If not, please recommend places to buy each item. Thx! Getting pumped!

wow! great video on BIAB...

Really convinced me to ultimately do BIAB, no sparging, with 3 gal kegs. Looks super quick and convenient, yet still fully customizable.

If you want something to grow into I'd recommend a 15 gallon kettle. Less boil over worry and can do 10 gallon batches when the time comes

swackattack said:

If you want something to grow into I'd recommend a 15 gallon kettle. Less boil over worry and can do 10 gallon batches when the time comes

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So way down the road I could add the kettle to 3 keg gravity system? Would there be any issues with that?

Not really. Just would have to make sure what you get/make would fit it.

robbdmc said:

wow! great video on BIAB... Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6WVul6IEKk

Really convinced me to ultimately do BIAB, no sparging, with 3 gal kegs. Looks super quick and convenient, yet still fully customizable.

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Thanks for sharing this video. Very informative. I didn't realize you could brew all grain using all the same equipment as with extract.

I also like the idea of three gallon batches because I can practice more...

Good luck getting started in your new hobby... My first batch was a extract brew with specialty grains... It's seven days old. Welcome to the club.

robbdmc said:

Any corrections to my list? If not, please recommend places to buy each item. Thx! Getting pumped!

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List looks good, but I agree with the above suggestion to consider 15 gal.

If your starter kit doesn't include an autosiphon, I'd add one of those to the list. Also make sure you have a decent thermometer with a long stem (doesn't have to be fancy, but be sure to check the calibration), a big spoon and/or mash paddle, and some big strong mesh bags suitable for holding 10-15 pounds of grain. There are various other sundries and measuring devices that are useful, too. I've found a small digital scale (0.1g increments up to 500g or so) is indispensible for measuring hops and nutrients, and I like to use a Pyrex measuring cup for rehydrating yeast. A bigger scale is also good for weighing grains and is often more convenient for measuring water quantities than a volume measure.

It sounds like you're on the right track. I second (or third or fourth) the comment that one's brewing setup is personal and addresses each of our unique values. I'm personally all about simple and do all manual lifting and pouring. The BIAB setup you're zeroing in on will not be wasted because you may always want to make smaller test batches.

Somebody also mentioned the importance of yeast and fermentation control. This is another area you could invest in earlier on. Things like starter flasks, stir plates, and fermentation chambers would all be useful.

Don't get an induction unit. Go propane or natural gas. If you want electric see the electric brewing section on how to use a heating element in the kettle. You want some BTU power trust me. If you want to start advanced and ahead of the game, get a bigger burner than you need. I started out with 32 tip natural gas burners when I was brewing 5 gallons and now I use the same burners to brew 30.

Edit

Also, if your budget allows, starting with a 15 gal kettle would be nice. The only thing I would worry about is making sure whatever wort chiller you get is put to good use. For instance, if you get an immersion chiller, some of the coils may not get submerged with a 5 gallon batch in a 15 gallon kettle taking it longer to cool the wort.

TwoGunz said:

Somebody also mentioned the importance of yeast and fermentation control. This is another area you could invest in earlier on. Things like starter flasks, stir plates, and fermentation chambers would all be useful.

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Ah, yes, good point. You can get by without fancy starter equipment at first, either by using dry yeast (which I recommend for at least the first batch) or doing shaken starters, but if your only financial worry is not buying equipment you'll need to replace, go ahead and splurge on that stuff. You'll never regret having miscellaneous lab glassware lying around.

But, if you're on any kind of a budget, I would spring for a quality temperature control setup right out of the gate. I didn't, I did my first batch in an unpowered fridge in the garage in winter, heating gallon-jugs of water twice a day to keep it at 60°. When spring rolled around, I powered up the fridge and tweaked an outlet timer to keep temperatures stable. Then I got a temp controller and... Well, I'd have happily given up the cost of a couple of batches to have had that from the start.

Depending on what size fermentor you end up using, it may be hard to guarantee that your ferm chamber is the right size. I'd not worry about that and get a mini-fridge, wine fridge, or chest freezer that fits what you're using now. You can always repurpose it to store beers, wines, or kegs later.

OP - I just started out (two brews under my belt) and had some of the same concerns as you. I got my Dad's 10 year old starter kit, bucket, hydrometer, etc., bought a Blichmann Burner, 15 gallon kettle and a BAG from one of the guys on this site. Could not be more pleased with my decision as it was the way to go for me. AG right from the get go. Just purchased a Kegerator and Thermapen as well. About 700 so far. Enjoy!

zeg said:

But, if you're on any kind of a budget, ...

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Oops, I meant to say, "But, if you have any kind of a budget, ..." (i.e., if you're not severely constrained)

Glad to see OP has come around a bit... What you're looking at now should more easily fit into the type of budget you're talking about, and it be something you can expand on as your comfort grows and you decide you're ready to expand into more traditional forms of all grain brewing.