Diacetyl developed in keg?

Well, here goes my first stab at lager, actually two of them and I'm dissapointed in what I think is dreaded diacetyl First batch was Munich Helles, second (week later) Pilsner Urquell clone, both taste almost identical (almost same grain bill) not to mention that Pilsner is little more bitter. When I say identical I mean they both have off-flavour that I never tasted before with 12 bathces or so of ales brewing. I assume its diacetyl, its kind of buttery, but not what I expected when people mention butter and butter scotch. Not very sharp, but its there. I cannot taste any malt, they both very clean and smooth except that somewhat sweet/buttery/slick aftertaste. Both were fermented for 2 weeks, 2-3 days diacetyl rest, then kegged. The biggest problem is both beers are in a kegs, lagered (3 weeks) and carbed. I don't remember any buttery taste before kegging, tasted good actually. I been sampling all along and this taste doesnt go away. I read before that lagers can taste funky before lagered so I assumed that its a 0.25 lbs of Honey Malt I taste in my Munich Helles (don't ask me why I added Honey Malt to Munich Helles, its a different story ) slightly sweet and slick but they both have same taste and smell, so I'm taking HM out of equasion since there was no HM in Pilsner
Here is my question, how can I fix this problem at this stage? Its kegged right after primary, I didn't do secondary on both for the fear of infection/oxidation during transfer. My first ever lager (pilsner) went down the drain from secondary because of what I think was acetaldehyde from infection or something, 5 gal of vinegar, could not save that I have 2 more batches fermenting right now in temp controlled freezer all of them above, pitched and fermented @ 48F all with a same yeast, Wyeast 2001 & 2206. One is Vienna/Tettnanger SMASH lager, other Pilsner.
Should I get the kegs out of the freezer, warm them up and sprinkle some Nottingham/US-05 on top? Or may be make little starter from Notty and add to both kegs? I also have a pack of W34/70 on hand which I'm ready to sacrifice to lager gods. So many questions, please help.

Recipe and process? Longer in primary. 6 weeks minimum

I would not have dumped other batch either..what happened there...how long did you age that one?

Munich Helles
BIAB (no-chill)

9 Pilsner
0.5 Munich
0.25 Carapils
0.25 Honey Malt

1 oz Tettnang 60 min
0.5 oz Hallertauer 30 min

Mash @ 152F for 60 min. Pitched Wyeast 2206 (2.5 qt starter) next day @ 48F
OG 1.044
FG 1.008

Primary 14 days, diacetyl rest for 3 days in closet @ 68F ambient. Then keged for lagering.

Pilsner Urquell clone
BIAB (no-chill)

9 Pilsner
1 Vienna
0.25 Carafoam

0.5 oz Magnum 60 min
1 oz Saaz 10 min
1 oz Tettnang (cube hop)

Mashed @ 149F for 90 min. Pitched Wyeast 2001 (2 qt starter) next day @ 48F
OG 1.050
FG 1.008

Primary 14 days, diacetyl rest for 2-3 days in closet @ 68F ambient. Then keged for lagering.

I think my problem is too short of diacetyl rest, I bring my primary carboys out of the freezer as soon as I see swirling inside starting dramatically to slow down, as soon as I move fermentors to closet yeast gets to work again but temperature inside carboy changes slowly and yeast doesnt finish their job. I then transfer directly to keg for lagering. I always sample before kegging and tasted something funky but was reading that lagers can taste like that before lagering so assumed its normal.

I pulled both kegs out of freezer last night to warm them up. Here the what I was thinking, since I don't do secondaries there is plenty of healthy yeast on bottom of these kegs, what if I just turn them upside down couple of times and ressuspend the yeast and leave them @ room temperature for a week to clean up. Will this help? Anyone done it this way? Thanks, trying to save 10 gal of lager goodness. Its taste great and clean but diacetyl I think is there

discgolfin said:

I would not have dumped other batch either..what happened there...how long did you age that one?

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Actually that first ever Pilsner was not salvagable, it was in secondary for 3 weeks and it was getting worse, kind of acetone, solventy taste. I think my taste pallate is not so good, I actually though it was diacetyl so I pulled out of freezer and let it sit for a week at room temp it was only getting worse, vinegar like quite disgusting to even sample, I had to let her go down the drain
You can see at the bottom my thread about "diacetyl during lagering" in fact what I thought as diacetyl was what I think some sort of infection, thats why I was too scared to move it to secondary this time to minimize any transfers.

What was the gravity when you did the rest? You want to do the rest while the beer is still fermenting (about 2/3 done.) The yeast will take up the diacetyl during the transition between anaerobic fermentation and the stationary phase.

Something is wrong with process. Maybe as other poster suggested..do rest earlier. Than leave longer at rest before you cool it down. I would akso be sure your yeast is healthy strong and in good numbers.

beerkrump said:

What was the gravity when you did the rest? You want to do the rest while the beer is still fermenting (about 2/3 done.) The yeast will take up the diacetyl during the transition between anaerobic fermentation and the stationary phase.

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I did the rest when gravity was almost at FG, may be it dropped couple points after that. IIRC Pilsner Urquell was rested @ 1.011 is that my problem?

discgolfin said:

Something is wrong with process. Maybe as other poster suggested..do rest earlier. Than leave longer at rest before you cool it down. I would akso be sure your yeast is healthy strong and in good numbers.

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I quite confident about yeast, there was almost no lag, 12 hours max, last batch around 7 hours and it was going strong, didn't expect that at all. I pitch a lot of yeast in lagers, last Vienna SMASH lager I dumped whole jar of washed yeast from previous batch

ettbeer said:

if you had enough good yeast it shouldn't have produced much diacetyl if the whole process started and stayed at 48F throughout fermentation. if it took 4 weeks of primary fermentation at that colder end (48F) it wouldn't be a surprise...you shouldn't even need a d rest.

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thats what I thought too, particulary with 2206 which is known as low producer of diacetyl.
So does anybody actually know if and how I can salvage already kegged batches?

I do 3-4 weeks (depending on OG) for initial ferment, 1 week for diacetyl rest ~ 5 degrees F warmer, then lager for a couple months at (at least) 10 degrees colder than ferment (usuallu just in teh fridge at 38-40 degrees).

As for correcting... I'd be tempted to just leave it alone for a while. Stash in the back of the fridge and revisit in two months.

As for future process, I'd leave it in the primary for longer, then diacetly rest for a week, then cold...

ThePearsonFam said:

I do 3-4 weeks (depending on OG) for initial ferment, 1 week for diacetyl rest ~ 5 degrees F warmer, then lager for a couple months at (at least) 10 degrees colder than ferment (usuallu just in teh fridge at 38-40 degrees).

As for correcting... I'd be tempted to just leave it alone for a while. Stash in the back of the fridge and revisit in two months.

As for future process, I'd leave it in the primary for longer, then diacetly rest for a week, then cold...

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do you think shaking kegs up will be good idea? Seems to me same as adding fresh yeast since I probably have a lot of yeast on bottom of kegs. Beer was murky when I kegged it. Will they re-absorb diacetyl once roused and warmed up?

you say 3-4 weeks for primary, then diacetyl rest, but what if my fermentation was over in 12 days flat, some suggest I was already late for diacetyl rest. I'm confused now

There should be enough yeast in there to rouse them. You'd have to decarb and warm it up into a reasonable temperature range for the yeast to get active (if they're not dead...and they're prolly not).

As for the primary and diacetyl rest... If it's still in the primary fermenter, there's plenty of yeast available to perform the diacetyl rest (or if you've racked to secondary for that matter). 3-4 weeks isn't too long to sit before bringing the temp up for diacetyl rest. As for teh 12 days flat, that's when the OG reached a steady point, but the yeast were (most likely) still working on the tougher stuff after that. That's why nost people will leave it in the primary for longer.

ettbeer said:

you could be stuck,, add fruit to them.. increased contact with Oxygen can also add to diacetyl production too,

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increased contact with oxygen? That was the whole point to move fermented beer from primary carboy straight to keg and pressurize it so there is no oxydation occured. Its either underpitching/stressed yeast or too short of diacetyl rest. Oh well, now at least I know what it taste like

ThePearsonFam said:

There should be enough yeast in there to rouse them. You'd have to decarb and warm it up into a reasonable temperature range for the yeast to get active (if they're not dead...and they're prolly not).

As for the primary and diacetyl rest... If it's still in the primary fermenter, there's plenty of yeast available to perform the diacetyl rest (or if you've racked to secondary for that matter). 3-4 weeks isn't too long to sit before bringing the temp up for diacetyl rest. As for teh 12 days flat, that's when the OG reached a steady point, but the yeast were (most likely) still working on the tougher stuff after that. That's why nost people will leave it in the primary for longer.

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why do I have to decarb? Yeast should work under pressure or not? I can release all pressure from overhead space but I don't see a point to degas the beer

A simple taste test is not the best way to tell if your diacetyl rest is complete. You may still have had diacetyl precursors in your beer. Next time test this way:
1. Pull two samples into clean glasses.
2. Place one sample into 140 degree water for 20 minutes. The other sample will be your control.
3. After 20 minutes place the hot sample in cold water to chill it.
4. Taste and smell the two side by side.

Without heat, longer time is needed for reactions to take place. This may be why you didn't taste diacetyl in the fermenter but was present in the keg.

ettbeer said:

if you introduce oxygen during the transfer its being exposed to it

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its almost impossible, I use one of the sterile syphons for all my transfers, its almost close transfer with zero splashing. I must have done 12-15 batches and not one get oxydized, I'm quite positive its not the issue

indianaroller said:

A simple taste test is not the best way to tell if your diacetyl rest is complete. You may still have had diacetyl precursors in your beer. Next time test this way:
1. Pull two samples into clean glasses.
2. Place one sample into 140 degree water for 20 minutes. The other sample will be your control.
3. After 20 minutes place the hot sample in cold water to chill it.
4. Taste and smell the two side by side.

Without heat, longer time is needed for reactions to take place. This may be why you didn't taste diacetyl in the fermenter but was present in the keg.

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thanks, I will try that next time, I read that somewhere here but couldn't taste any diacetyl after fermentation was complete so I assumed I have nothing to worry about. Currently its at such low level that I can drink a glass or to with no problem, Pilsner one I can hardly taste it at all. This is why I was confused if I'm even dealing with diacetyl in a first place

ettbeer said:

i got it slightly in an american lager.. the colder you can serve it the better..

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true, when I sampled my Pilsner Urquell clone @ 32F during lagering, I like, hmm, this going to be good. But when I warmed it up to 48F (to accomodate my other 2 lagers fermenting) I can pick it up slightly, its not bad but its there and I would like to get rid of it.

Krauzening might be able to get rid of it if you are really determined.

indianaroller said:

Krauzening might be able to get rid of it if you are really determined.

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really? like you mean from fresh batch? I have two of them fermenting right now for 6 days, one is Vienna Lager SMASH (with 2206) other Pilsner (with 2001). So should I just scoop some krausen from both batches and pitch it in kegs with similar yeast? There is very little on top and would be hard to get some from carboy, might have to try turkey baster or something. Is this solution better than shaking the hell out of already settled yeast in keg?