Tannin Flavor

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cosmo

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I have been getting a slight but distinct tannin flavor in my beers and I can't seem to find the cause. I'll try to explain my process in detail. I use all RO water even though my well water has moderate alkalinity (total alkalinity: 57) and no other issues (Ward Labs test). I use RO because I already have an RO unit and it is convenient to use, so that brings the alkalinity down to probably well below 5. Do I need more alkaliniity? I add calcium chloride and gypsum to get about 75 ppm Ca. I get the same tannic flavor in all kinds of beers (Pale Ale, Helles, etc.) with both pilsner and pale 2-row base malts. I do only a single rest. Should I try a protien rest? My mash pH is always arround 5.2-5.3. If anything this is on the low side. Could low pH cause tannins? I thought only high pH was an issue. I adjusted my barley crusher to slightly below the factory setting. Not sure the gap off-hand but I don't have any problems with stuck sparges. I batch sparge with all RO water and no water treatment. Could that be an issue? I didn't think I needed acid since it is RO. I vorlof a quart or two then let it run into the kettle. I get great cold break which is pretty much all left behind in the kettle and chill down below fermentation temperature. I'm at a loss for what to do next. Any suggestions?
 
I have been getting a slight but distinct tannin flavor in my beers and I can't seem to find the cause. I'll try to explain my process in detail. I use all RO water even though my well water has moderate alkalinity (total alkalinity: 57) and no other issues (Ward Labs test). I use RO because I already have an RO unit and it is convenient to use, so that brings the alkalinity down to probably well below 5. Do I need more alkaliniity? I add calcium chloride and gypsum to get about 75 ppm Ca. I get the same tannic flavor in all kinds of beers (Pale Ale, Helles, etc.) with both pilsner and pale 2-row base malts. I do only a single rest. Should I try a protien rest? My mash pH is always arround 5.2-5.3. If anything this is on the low side. Could low pH cause tannins? I thought only high pH was an issue. I adjusted my barley crusher to slightly below the factory setting. Not sure the gap off-hand but I don't have any problems with stuck sparges. I batch sparge with all RO water and no water treatment. Could that be an issue? I didn't think I needed acid since it is RO. I vorlof a quart or two then let it run into the kettle. I get great cold break which is pretty much all left behind in the kettle and chill down below fermentation temperature. I'm at a loss for what to do next. Any suggestions?

First time I've used RO water I've noticed that kind of problem too. CaCl2 added in very soft water tend to accentuate that. Using RO water you will find that Cl/S04 ration become critical (something that I coulden't undersand before). So first of all in my opinion you have to pay attention to final profile of the water. One easy way to find out if the problem is just a water mineral content, is to make a beer using spring water. Try to replicate one recipe changing only water, if you'll end up with the same problem than you have to focus on other aspects
 
Thanks Sam. That sounds like it could be the issue. I would like to stay away from spring water because I don't know the mineral content. I may try using 75% RO and 25% tap water instead of all RO water. I'm not sure if something is missing or if my pH is too low. Would it make sense to add a little Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate)?

Anyone else also have experience with this?
 
It sounds like you are doing things correctly. Somewhat low pH, boosting the Ca, using RO water. The one thing not described was the end of sparging cut-off point or criteria. It is still possible to over-sparge and extract tannins.

The untreated RO water sparge is OK since it have very low alkalinity. However, I do recommend that the Ca content of that water also be increased to increase the osmotic pressure on the husk membranes and reduce the potential that the tannins would be drawn into the wort.

Given the pH readings, there should not be a need to add alkalinity to the mash unless you want that to alter the wort character. Raising the alkalinity and pH would increase the potential for tannin extraction. So where you are now, is OK.
 
However, I do recommend that the Ca content of that water also be increased to increase the osmotic pressure on the husk membranes and reduce the potential that the tannins would be drawn into the wort.

I have never heard of this tip before. Should I be adding all of my sparge additions to my sparge water regardless of the amount Martin, or is there a ppm threshold for Ca in the sparge that I should stay under?
 
The one thing not described was the end of sparging cut-off point or criteria. It is still possible to over-sparge and extract tannins.

Thanks for your response Martin. It's great to get advice from experts such as yourself. I do batch sparging so I don't think over-sparging is possible, especially with all RO. I will try splitting up my calcium additions between the mash and sparge water next time. That sounds like a good idea. Makes sense to me.

Do you think doing a protein rest could also help? From what I have read, proteins and polyphenols could be imbalanced. I'm getting both tannin taste and some chill haze.
 
Do you think doing a protein rest could also help? From what I have read, proteins and polyphenols could be imbalanced. I'm getting both tannin taste and some chill haze.

With today's malt quality, protein rests are rarely beneficial or called for. In most cases, they diminish beer body and mouthfeel. I'm not sure what is meant by proteins and polyphenols being imbalanced. I've not heard of a 'balance' for those components.

While we are on the issue of polyphenols, they can be contributed by either malt or hop. So if these beers are dry hopped or have large late hop additions, its possible that the polyphenols are hop derived. Just another point to ponder.
 
Thanks Sam. That sounds like it could be the issue. I would like to stay away from spring water because I don't know the mineral content. I may try using 75% RO and 25% tap water instead of all RO water. I'm not sure if something is missing or if my pH is too low. Would it make sense to add a little Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate)?

Anyone else also have experience with this?

When I perform test like this I prefer going to the opposite side... Consider it just a test batch
 
I am going to guess that RO water is reverse osmoses. If it is and this is indeed a problem then does anyone know off the top of their head how culligan water is filtered? And if it is good to use right off the tap?
 
Thanks Sam. That sounds like it could be the issue. I would like to stay away from spring water because I don't know the mineral content. I may try using 75% RO and 25% tap water instead of all RO water. I'm not sure if something is missing or if my pH is too low. Would it make sense to add a little Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate)?

Anyone else also have experience with this?
Use a water calculator that allows for these calculations. (different or mixed water sources) You might also try reducing the pH of the sparge water to at least 6 if you have the means to do so. Couldn't hurt. Martin may be correct about the buffering, or lack thereof, of RO water but it wouldn't hurt to lower it to pH 6 if all else fails.
 
Even though you're batch sparging with low pH RO water try to keep your batch sparge water below 170 degrees and see if it helps. I had the same problem with astringency when I was batch sparging with hotter water.
 
Thanks to everyone for all the great suggestions. What a great bunch! My temperatures are accurate. I've been using a Thermapen which matches my other digital thermomenter. My batch sparge water is below 170F. A while back I suspected that as an issue and lowered it to 168-170 for the last several batches with no percievable impact. I brewed last weekend and used Martin's suggestion of spliting the Ca additions between the mash and sparge water using all RO. I'll see in a few weeks what the outcome is. I hope that's it since I'm about out of ideas that I havn't already tried. Thanks again, all.
 
Cos, are other people noticing the same flavor that your are? Perhaps you are just being too critical of your beer. Or maybe you are super sensitive to tannins (assuming that's what you are tasting).
 
I'm having this same issue. I've tried adjusting the water and last night, while transferring from primary to secondary, the hydro sample hinted at the same aftertaste again. Hopefully it will diminish.

To add to this, my blondes seem to always end up very cloudy, almost like yeast is suspended. I happen to have just kegged an IPA that finish around 6-7 SRM vs 4 for the blonde and the IPA is very clear.

Can water chemistry effect clarity?
 
Can water chemistry effect clarity?

Absolutely. A deficiency of calcium in your boil can cause a clarity problem from a chemical haze called oxalate haze. Make sure you have more than 25 ppm calcium (50 ppm is better) by getting a chemical water analysis.
 
Does anyone else wonder if it's really tannins when it's described as a tannin "flavor"? Tannins are a mouthfeel, not a flavor.
 
Denny has a good point. Assertive bittering can be misconstrued as tannin on an inexperienced palate. Polyphenols from a strong hopping regime can also produce a tannin-like flavor and mouthfeel. There are husk-derived and hop-derived components that can have some similarity in finished beer
 
The taste I get is a bitter aftertaste.....Maybe 3 to 4 seconds after swallowing. If you've ever eaten boiled shrimp and accidentally gotten a good taste of the shell, thats what I'm getting.
 
Cos, are other people noticing the same flavor that your are? Perhaps you are just being too critical of your beer. Or maybe you are super sensitive to tannins (assuming that's what you are tasting).

I'm the only one who has tried these particular beers. Others I have maded in the past did not have this issue. I may be overly sensitive to it, but I can definately tell it's there.
 
Does anyone else wonder if it's really tannins when it's described as a tannin "flavor"? Tannins are a mouthfeel, not a flavor.

Denny, not sure if it is a mouthfeel or a flavor, but it's definately not bitterness. I am picking it up in my Helles and less so in my IPA. I think the bitterness in the IPA might be masking it a little but it still comes through. I'm not sure exactly what it is and I'm open to suggestions. Tannins are described as what you get when sucking on a tea bag. That's about the closest description I could come up with, but much less intense than an actual tea bag. The beers also remain hazy for a couple months. Not sure if that is related.
 
Denny has a good point. Assertive bittering can be misconstrued as tannin on an inexperienced palate. Polyphenols from a strong hopping regime can also produce a tannin-like flavor and mouthfeel. There are husk-derived and hop-derived components that can have some similarity in finished beer

It's definately not hop related. I get it in my Helles lager recipe from Jamil's BCS book. To me, the most likely explaination is the one you had on RO sparge water and osmotic pressure releasing tannins. We'll soon see if that's it.
 
It's definately not hop related. I get it in my Helles lager recipe from Jamil's BCS book.

It's not just what kind of hops you use, but what kind of hops you use. What I mean is that old, stale, oxidized, and/or freezer-burned hops can produce numerous off flavors. For instance, alpha acids are diminished while the astringent, sour aspects of beta acids are intensified as hops oxidize. Improper handling and storage of hops can very easily create and/or intensify the problem you're describing.
 
Denny, not sure if it is a mouthfeel or a flavor, but it's definately not bitterness. I am picking it up in my Helles and less so in my IPA. I think the bitterness in the IPA might be masking it a little but it still comes through. I'm not sure exactly what it is and I'm open to suggestions. Tannins are described as what you get when sucking on a tea bag. That's about the closest description I could come up with, but much less intense than an actual tea bag. The beers also remain hazy for a couple months. Not sure if that is related.
Are you getting good hot and cold breaks?
 
Hops are pellets from Yakima Valley hops and Northern Brewer. All seem very fresh and stored in vacume sealed bags in freezer. Great hot and cold break. left about a gallon of break material in kettle and used only clear wort after 40 minutes of settling.
 
The taste I get is a bitter aftertaste.....Maybe 3 to 4 seconds after swallowing. If you've ever eaten boiled shrimp and accidentally gotten a good taste of the shell, thats what I'm getting.

to me this description fits very good with the use of RO water with low level of salt adiction, or cl/SO4 ratio too hight with very soft water
 
I have very soft tap water. Some say it appears to be softened, possibly by municipality. Anyway, I have tried dilution and additions of gypsum and CaCl2 per Bru n Water. Still get some off flavor. Next step, all RO with additions.
 
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Have you used these guidelines. I am having some flavor issues with the water in my area and recently bought a RO system. I just brewed an IPA with these guidelines and I am hoping for the best results. I used the British profile for the IPA I brewed and I am using the light beer profile for a Helles and the Burton profile for a Scottish 70 Schilling I am brewing this weekend.

For the IPA the PH wound up going a little low 5.1, I think its because I used a pound of crystal on top of the acidulated malt, but thats a hell of a lot better than the 6.1 I was getting from the local bottled water.
 
I have been having problems with a taste I could not put my finger on. I am getting ready to move so I have not been brewing for a while, but I was beginning to think I was using too much water (as in volume) during my sparge.

Are your volumes correct?

Somewhere I had read that could cause astringency... maybe I'm all wet....
 
How much gypsum did you add? When I first started messing with my water, (which is very soft) I tried "balancing" the sulfate and chloride ratios for different styles and quickly found out I do not like sulfates in my beer.
To me it left a strange taste on the back of my tongue. You can try adding a little gypsum to a glass beer you like and see if you get the type "off" taste.
Just my .02
 
How much gypsum did you add? When I first started messing with my water, (which is very soft) I tried "balancing" the sulfate and chloride ratios for different styles and quickly found out I do not like sulfates in my beer.
To me it left a strange taste on the back of my tongue. You can try adding a little gypsum to a glass beer you like and see if you get the type "off" taste.
Just my .02

Do add it in the same proportion as used in brewing water. For a glass of water, that probably means are few granules and not a tsp.

Be aware that the sulfate/chloride ratio is meaningless if the total magnitude of those ions isn't taken into account. You can't just add gypsum to a water with high chlorides in a quest to create a proper ratio and expect a good result.
 
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Have you used these guidelines. I am having some flavor issues with the water in my area and recently bought a RO system. I just brewed an IPA with these guidelines and I am hoping for the best results. I used the British profile for the IPA I brewed and I am using the light beer profile for a Helles and the Burton profile for a Scottish 70 Schilling I am brewing this weekend.

For the IPA the PH wound up going a little low 5.1, I think its because I used a pound of crystal on top of the acidulated malt, but thats a hell of a lot better than the 6.1 I was getting from the local bottled water.

I have used yoppers guidelines, its good advice albeit simplified. Never to leave good enough alone, I now use the Walmart RO dispenser water along with salt additions called for by the Saq's water chem spreadsheet.
The night before brewday I make up all water needed with the salt additions to ensure they are dissolved. Its easy fast and has worked great for the last year and half.
 
Well, it's been a couple months since my original post and I thought I would give everyone an update. Previously I was using all RO water with salt additions in the mash only. I followed Martin's advice on the last few batches and used 50% RO water and 50% tap water. I added equal amounts of Gypsum and calcium chloride to get the Ca above 50 ppm. All water for mash and sparge was mixed in one HLT this time so mash and sparge water were the same. I used 3 ml lactic acid in the mash and ended up with a mash pH of 5.3 (calibrated pH meter). I added 1 ml of lactic acid to the sparge water to get a pH of 5.8. The first batch with this new technique is now about 5 weeks in the keg. The tannin flavor seems to be much better, but still slightly detectable. For my next bew, I increased the gap on my mill from 0.85 mm (0.0335 in) to 0.9 mm (0.0354 in) to see if that helps.
 
Well, it's been a couple months since my original post and I thought I would give everyone an update. Previously I was using all RO water with salt additions in the mash only. I followed Martin's advice on the last few batches and used 50% RO water and 50% tap water. I added equal amounts of Gypsum and calcium chloride to get the Ca above 50 ppm. All water for mash and sparge was mixed in one HLT this time so mash and sparge water were the same. I used 3 ml lactic acid in the mash and ended up with a mash pH of 5.3 (calibrated pH meter). I added 1 ml of lactic acid to the sparge water to get a pH of 5.8. The first batch with this new technique is now about 5 weeks in the keg. The tannin flavor seems to be much better, but still slightly detectable. For my next bew, I increased the gap on my mill from 0.85 mm (0.0335 in) to 0.9 mm (0.0354 in) to see if that helps.

The next batch, I'd suggest sparging with 100% RO water. That is what worked perfectly for me, and it's worth a try!
 
Pardon my ignorance but what does "tannin" taste like. I've always thought of it as more of a mouth feel thing but read about possible astringent flavors etc... ie: I add black tea to my cider for tannins to give it more body and to take the edge off the tartness when it's consumed young.

Right now I'm thinking astringent bitter... maybe like burnt coffee. Am I on the right track?
 
The next batch, I'd suggest sparging with 100% RO water. That is what worked perfectly for me, and it's worth a try!

That's what I had been doing all along. I was using all RO for mash and sparge with salts in mash only. I switched to 50% RO and 50% tap with salts in both mash and sparge and acidified sparge. That's when I noticed some improvement. Maybe I should try all RO, but with salts mixed evenly between mash and sparge. Is that what you are suggesting? Thanks for your input. I may try that next time I brew.
 
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