Help designing/getting parts list for automatic 2 vessel

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Adeering

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So Im deploying in a couple months and want to start making the plans for the new system I want to build when I get back. Currently Im using a single vessel 5 gal BIAB setup that works great, but want bigger batches and automation cause im a geek and like projects.

Here is the plan for the new system (Once I figure out exactly how to do it), I want a 2 vessel system capable of doing both 5 and 10 gal batches, all electric RIMS system capable of complete automation or manual brewing.

Here is what I know already, Want two 15 or 20g blichmanns one for a MT with a RIMS system and the boil kettle. Will have two pumps, one to circulate the mash through the RIMS and one for transfer from the MT to BK.

The parts Im not sure about, the automation part, the valves to turn direct the flow.

Something similar to this but without the HLT.
 
Hi

Since you are headed towards Blichmann already *and* have some time - wait and see what his automation solution looks like when it finally gets here.

Bob
 
Is Blichmann doing automation? or are you talking about theelectricbrewery.com?

as for blichmann, those are just the nicest kettles ive found, unless someone has a different solution for 20g kettles that have all those features and look nice (also while I love DIY im not comfortable doing metal work needed to install the holes)

Im gonna update later this week with the general layout and plan, Ive got the idea for everything non controlled/automated so ill need the most help with hardware/wiring diagrams for the control box
 
I think Bob's referring to this: http://www.homebrewing.org/Blichmann-Tower-Of-Power_p_2830.html

Seems a bit on the pricey side for basically temperature control only.

--

As for the kettles, the Blichmanns are nice for sure and you're going to pay a premium on them. I have a 20g Blichmann and the quality is definitely there but it's a lot of coin too. I saw Brewers Hardware (http://www.brewershardware.com/) has some kettles now; I'd be curious how they compare as Derrin's stuff is usually nice. People seem to like the Stout Tanks stuff too although for me, they seemed just as pricey as the Blichmann when you started comparing features and shipping.
 
jpalarchio said:
I think Bob's referring to this: http://www.homebrewing.org/Blichmann-Tower-Of-Power_p_2830.html

Seems a bit on the pricey side for basically temperature control only.

--

As for the kettles, the Blichmanns are nice for sure and you're going to pay a premium on them. I have a 20g Blichmann and the quality is definitely there but it's a lot of coin too. I saw Brewers Hardware (http://www.brewershardware.com/) has some kettles now; I'd be curious how they compare as Derrin's stuff is usually nice. People seem to like the Stout Tanks stuff too although for me, they seemed just as pricey as the Blichmann when you started comparing features and shipping.
Click to expand...

That's a wild price for a temperature controller! My Aubers run $45 each. The sensors were $7-12, maybe twice that if you want a long probe for a bulkhead. I think the plastic enclosures were $12. I picked up ASCO valves for $5 each on eBay. Thermowells are about $25, or the same for a bulkhead. Even if you aren't as lucky you might spend $50 for an ASCO valve. Maybe if you really do not care about money, or can't or won't do it yourself, but otherwise that price just seems absurd. For that money I could have a BCS 460 and a lot of other stuff besides. Am I missing something here?

Here are the kettles that I bought: http://www.waresdirect.com/products/Restaurant-Supply/UpdateInternational/100-Qt168817 I did not drill mine, but once again you can get an excellent step bit and a new drill before you're anywhere near the Blichmans. Midwest and Northern Brewer sell mash screens for these for about $100.
 
You didnt put any link up for the kettles. The biggest thing for me is the dimensions (and maybe i also like the polished looked also) of the blichmann's, I like that they are skinnier and taller most 20g that I find are short and fat, which is more surface area than I want.

Also I thinking I might go with the 82qt Bayou Classic pots and install the weldless fittings myself. Not great with metal work but i should be able to drill a couple holes
 
Ok So got my system planned out with an initial parts list and idea. General concept is an electric Brutus 20 powered by a BCS-460. Going to have two 20 gal pots with 5500W elements in them and all the site guage, thermometers, false bottoms, etc needed. Will have two pumps to move water around.

Boil Kettle:
This will be a 20 gal stainless steel kettle (currently looking at the Concord ones on ebay but might spend the extra on Blichmann's) with a 5500W element, a 3 piece ball valce, center pickup, custom built hop stopper (planning a false bottomish screen above the element), site guage, whirlpool/input at top. This will be used to boil and also heat strike water at the end of the mash. Here is the parts list with general pricing:
boil-kettle-55482.png


Mash Tun:
Mash Tun will be a 20 gal stainless steel kettle with a 5500W element, a false bottom, 3 piece ball valve, site guage, Thermometer, and a whirlpool input as well. It will use a pump to recirculate during the mash and also transfer to the BK during the mash out. Here is the parts list for this:
mash-tun-55484.png


Automation:
Plan is to have the control box be both manually controlled or done with a BCS-460. Will have everything plug in and wired similar to Kal's electric brewery with adaptations for my system. Thanks to Kal for his website and P-J for wiring diagrams and help. Here is the parts list as of now:
automation-55483.png


Havent decided on a stand yet and still working on a google sketchup of the design (im really bad at google sketchup). This is all planned to be purchased with the money im saving during my deployment and will be a present to myself for when I get back.
 
Hi

I'd plan on putting at least 50% more in the bank than you *think* it's going to cost before you start. Stuff happens and you don't want to get 90% of the way there and not be able to complete the build. Worst thing that can happen is you have a nice budget for buying a stock of grain and hops....

Bob
 
ThreeDogsNE said:
That's a wild price for a temperature controller! My Aubers run $45 each. The sensors were $7-12, maybe twice that if you want a long probe for a bulkhead. I think the plastic enclosures were $12. I picked up ASCO valves for $5 each on eBay. Thermowells are about $25, or the same for a bulkhead. Even if you aren't as lucky you might spend $50 for an ASCO valve. Maybe if you really do not care about money, or can't or won't do it yourself, but otherwise that price just seems absurd. For that money I could have a BCS 460 and a lot of other stuff besides. Am I missing something here?...
Click to expand...

Not trying to pick a fight... this is my opinion:
I actually priced out all the components including the stainless box and the more expensive PID used. Including labor the price is actually reasonable for a plug and play product. Building a unit to be generic is more challenging. The one factor that is often overlooked is the labor and other costs. Not everyone has the time or skills to build their own. I think the ToP is a good product. And I'm not a Blichmann fan.
 
OneHoppyGuy said:
Not trying to pick a fight... this is my opinion:
I actually priced out all the components including the stainless box and the more expensive PID used. Including labor the price is actually reasonable for a plug and play product. Building a unit to be generic is more challenging. The one factor that is often overlooked is the labor and other costs. Not everyone has the time or skills to build their own. I think the ToP is a good product. And I'm not a Blichmann fan.
Click to expand...

Hi

Don't forget the big pile of "extra stuff" that's now sitting in the garage. I have been doing stuff like this for a *long* time and there's never ever been a project that used exactly and only the parts I bought for it. Then there's the tools. Then there's the $400 mistakes ....

Bob
 
carlisle_bob said:
Hi

Don't forget the big pile of "extra stuff" that's now sitting in the garage. I have been doing stuff like this for a *long* time and there's never ever been a project that used exactly and only the parts I bought for it. Then there's the tools. Then there's the $400 mistakes ....

Bob
Click to expand...

Hi hear ya bro! Gone through a lot of parts getting our systems to where they are today and we are just getting started. Valves, plumbing, switches, scrap steel.... Fortunately, we have a much better idea nowadays and 'most' stands are cut and dry.
 
Yeah, this is just a preliminary list of stuff, so that hopefully when I start building it I have most of the items and minimize the time waiting on parts to arrive.

update to the plan...Hardware wise the plan is the same, still doing an electric Brutus 20, however, ive decided to play with Arduino and make the controller from scratch with an Arduino Mega ADK, and use my Android Tablet as a user interface. There will be manual controls for when the android tablet isnt used as well. Ive started ordering the internal parts to start building the controller and going to take that with me when a deploy and work on the coding and wiring while over there. So when i come back all I have to do is plug it up and it will be good to go.
 
Hi

I think I'd take along a minimal set of "play parts" to let you validate your code and your approach. You never know what may get lost 7 or 8 time zones away from home.

Put another way - take only what you can afford to break / loose / destroy.

Bob
 
Thats the plan, just bringing the basics, the switches and gonna use leds to represent the pumps and elements while testing, was already bringing my tablet so that isnt anything new
 
Adeering,
When I went downrange to Iraq, I took a couple of developement boards and a few basic parts and did pretty much what you are describing. When I got back my ATHC torch height controller was nearly complete. It definately made time go by quicker too. Good luck, keep yer head down and look out for your battle buddy.
Wheelchair Bob

Sparkfun also ships to soldiers and deplyed civilians too. They have a huge Arduino library and a ton of Arduino boards and parts. Just in case you need to order anything while youre down range.
 
So quick question about SSRs and the Arduino, are SSRs capable of variable output. And can using the PWM outputs to control the percent power given to the element so that the elements can control the amount of heat.
 
SSR are capable of variable AC output and use DC volts for the most part to turn on and off. You can order SSR's with different on/off voltages, AC or DC in and out, with or without a pre-attatched heat sinks and in many different available amp ratings. Look carefully when you start getting ready to buy and insure your Input (control) voltage is suitable (5V DC nominal for Arduino) and your output voltages are in the correct range and do ot exceed the available amps. SSR's are also capable of fast switching and have a zero crossing sensor to help ease the current inrush. Also remember that the Arduino chip can only put out X milliamps (see datasheet) before it shuts down the output or fries the chip. With any inductive load like a coil or motor you should have at least one freewheeling diode to avoid damage to the chip too. You can demo anything you want with LED's, but keep the max limits of the current you will be able to supply. Most chips limit all loads combined to a max of 120 Milliamps or 20 Milli per pin. Darlington transistor array's and other transistor used as a switch is a common way of getting around the milliamp limits on the chip, and it also helps isolate the chip from inrush damage too. Holler if you need any help.
Wheelchair Bob
 
Ok thanks, for now I think Ill be fine with the stuff im testing and using to develop, but Im sure ill have some wiring questions to make sure I dont screw anything up when I get back and start putting the real stuff together.

On another note it sucks waiting for packages, have the switches coming from china (gonna have to wait a few weeks for those hopefully they make it before I leave), the Arduino Mega ADK coming tomorrow along with a breadboard and wiring kit and various resistors and leds to get started, A LCD screen and two temp probes. So should be enough to do a mockup with the switches and temp probes to turn on various leds for testing.
 
Rbeckett said:
SSR are capable of variable AC output and use DC volts for the most part to turn on and off. You can order SSR's with different on/off voltages, AC or DC in and out, with or without a pre-attatched heat sinks and in many different available amp ratings. Look carefully when you start getting ready to buy and insure your Input (control) voltage is suitable (5V DC nominal for Arduino) and your output voltages are in the correct range and do ot exceed the available amps.
Click to expand...

Ok so if I understand this right the control input can determine the amount of output?

So for use with a Digital output on an Arduino which is capable of 40mA and 5 VDC what would be needed. Based on my wiring (got from P-J adapting to use only 2 elements, 2 pumps, and the arduino) what would you suggest for an SSR
 
Adeering said:
Ok so if I understand this right the control input can determine the amount of output?

So for use with a Digital output on an Arduino which is capable of 40mA and 5 VDC what would be needed. Based on my wiring (got from P-J adapting to use only 2 elements, 2 pumps, and the arduino) what would you suggest for an SSR
Click to expand...

Hi

I'd put the SSR's on the "wait and buy later" list. They are a generic itiem and likely will be cheaper when you get back.

Bob
 
They are on the list for buy later, just trying to get as complete a list as possible so I can get good wiring diagrams done
 
Adeering,
This approach may help you get going a little better. Draw and finalize a schematic first, then begin doing the math for all of the resistors, caps and relays. That way when you get back you will have a very clean buy sheet that will get you exactly what you need. Buying parts, then attempting to tie them all together will create issues with compatibility and amps later on in the build,. Once you have a working model using the LED's as loads you can complete the coding that you want to include and verify that it works as expected. I have built several Picaxe (different variation/manufacturer of chip) projects this way and have been very happy with the end result. Building a working brew controller is very easy, the different components you install and add will make it more complex over time, but the basic electronics and principles remain the same throughout the whole project. If you need any help, feel free to PM me and I will be more than willing to help you design and build your controller to your specs.

Wheelchair Bob
 
Thats basically what im doing, I have the basic diagram made up, just trying to figure out the main components so that later I can work on all the connecting stuff. I got some time though so not in any rush
 
Do you know where youre going when you go down range yet? I volunteered as a civilian so I kind of knew exactly where and what I was getting into up front. I was on the Plains south of Mosul at an Iraqi air force base turned rework facility. We built and repaired all kinds of vehicles and IED detectors. We had a 12 mile exclusion zone so no mortars or rockets for the most part, happened but not too often. Good luck, and be safe and as you fill in you schematic holler if ya need any help. Glad to do it for a bro in arms.
Bob
 
So Ive changed my design for the kettles a little. Instead of doing a side mounted pickup with a SS diptube to get as much as possible with siphon, Ive decided to go with a bottom drain on both the mash tun and BK. Here is the advantage/disadvantage that I see and have read:

Advantages:
1. Clean-in-place, makes for easy draining/cleaning after the brew day (huge plus cause I have a small sink and cleaning my pot in it creates a mess)
2. Less parts, can use a welding spud and mount the valve underneath
3. No need for a diptube
4. Complete draining
5. Less stuff on the inside of kettle

Disadvantages:
1. Possible clogging (planning on false bottom and SS hop screen for BK so should handle that)
2. Need to build a stand instead of being able to use a table
3. Couple extra SS plumbing pieces for the outflow

Overall I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and think it will be a nice feature. Inputs?
 
Hi

With a fitting coming out of the bottom of the kettle, it will be a pain to store. It's not going to sit flat on a shelf. If you ever move, it'll be interesting to see if it arrives undamaged (yes, I've moved a lot and am a bit sensitive on that particular topic).

Clean in place is possible with a lot of setups. It's more how you set up the system than any one fitting. You certainly can rig a side fitting / siphon to do CIP. Weather CIP is a good idea or not is an entirely different issue.

If you ever go to a gas burner to help out with the heat, a fitting out the bottom will be in the flame. That's not a good idea...

Bob
 
For the shelf, If I decide to go this way, Ill build a stand for the whole system that it will be stored on

Wont ever go gas burner once I make this setup, that is the point, I hate dealing with propane and burners

Havent fully decided yet as I have a couple months before I purchase the stuff, but it is an option Im looking at
 
Hi

You still will need to play with the pot to get "stuff" out of it. I suspect the bump on the bottom will get in the way. One good whack and it's going to leak..

Bob
 
I havent fully decided yet, I have 5 months to decide before I start building and its only a small difference in parts/price, so well see what I decide
 
Adeering said:
I havent fully decided yet, I have 5 months to decide before I start building and its only a small difference in parts/price, so well see what I decide
Click to expand...

Hi

That's plenty of time to think stuff over. All I'm trying to do is to make sure you look at both sides of the decision.

What would be very cool would be a custom pot with a sloping bottom. That way it would fully drain with a bottom drain. Much like a conical fermenter...

Bob
 

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