Getting Frustrated

Being new to brewing I started out strictly with Extract Brews with the intention of moving up slowly to adding steeping and finally all grain. All were turning out tasty. Nothing amazing but very drinkable and enjoyable. I was very pleased with the results and knew that refining my process would make them very good. There was no flavor either.
So then I started extract with steeping grains. Since then ugh. Everything kept having a sharp/hard a alcohol smell when done fermenting. The aroma would hit your nose at first with a nice aroma of beer and then quickly turn into a harsh smell of alcohol.
At first i figured it was due to fermenting at to warm of a temp (avg 66-68 degree). So i tried everything to maintain a cooler temp and was successful (62-65degrees depending on recipe) But to no avail. Then I realized i was not steeping correctly. I was boiling the grains rather than getting the water to 160-165 degrees and cutting the heat and then adding the grains (after waiting a bit to insure the water temp didn't increase) to steep for 20-30 mins.
So today I opened up my fermentation bucket to bottle my Irish Red Ale. Had maintained a 64-65 degree ferment, and had tracked the temp of the steeping grains (temp never got above 165 from the time i added the grains). Same alcohol smell and not much flavor.
After my boil my gravity was 1.052 Gravity before bottling this morning was 1.012.
Not sure what i am doing wrong at this point. Any suggestions
thx

If you boil the steeping grains you extract tannins that give your beer a harsh and undesirable taste. Never steep at 170 or above. I usually heat the water to 165, put in the grains, put on the lid and go do something else for an hour. The alcohol taste is a chemical called Fusal (SP?) that will subgside if you let the beer condition longer. I have a Raison D'Etre clone that has a strong fusal scent afther the initial conditioning of 4 weeks. Usually takes an additional 2 weeks to subside. If you don't want to wait, try reducing your OG. That will develop less alcohol and less of the odor you describe.

If your brews were okay before with just extract then you can rule out a number of things, like most problems with the water. Ferment temp sounds great and that's not an over the top beer at 1.052. My best guess would be the steeping temp. If your thermometer is off a little it's possible you could have been steeping in the 170 range which might give some harsh flavor. I would make sure your thermometer is calibrated and then try steeping around 150-155.

william_shakes_beer said:

The alcohol taste is a chemical called Fusal (SP?) that will subgside if you let the beer condition longer. I have a Raison D'Etre clone that has a strong fusal scent afther the initial conditioning of 4 weeks. Usually takes an additional 2 weeks to subside. If you don't want to wait, try reducing your OG. That will develop less alcohol and less of the odor you describe.

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This. My first extract/steeped brew had a boozy smell/taste that would dissipate as the beer sat and breathed in the glass. A couple weeks later it's less noticeable and fades faster. I imagine it will continue to subside.

All you guys are missing it here...he's not ruining the beer with his brewday process, he's smelling it (along with CO2) way before it's beer.

The OP is strickly talking about the smell of his fermented wort IN the fermenter at the end of fermentation. All beers, good and bad, smell like alcohol burn at that point in the process. It's not alcohol, it's the CO2 in the deadspace of the fermenter filling your nasal cavity, but it is very similar to an alcohol burn, which I know from experience!

A beer can't be judged by taste, smell, or sight until it has completed proper carbonation and conditioning. Both you descriptions above say you are smelling them after fermentation but before carb/conditioning.

TRUST ME....that smell you are describing after fermentation is completely normal for good beers...I hope you aren't tossing these guys out!!

Instead of taking a big whiff of the CO2 layer, get yourself a wine thief or turkey baster ($3 at Target) and take a small sample at that point in the process. I put mine into a shot glass and throw them into the freezer for about 10 minutes to chill. That'll give you a MUCH better picture of where you're at at that stage. Taste and smell away, the CO2 burn will be gone. Just still remember that the beer will STILL change a ton during carb/conditioning, typically for the better.

TopherM said:

All The OP is strickly talking about the smell of his fermented wort IN the fermenter at the end of fermentation.

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oops, um yeah. missed that part.
no worries then!

I am not dumping them, I believe its not a bad batch until it takes bad after conditioning in the bottle. I would rather know for sure its bad than wonder if it still would have turned out ok.
I was not aware it was supposed to smell that way in the fermenter at the end of the fermentation process.
Thanks TopherM, I will check back in a month or so and see how it turns out. Going to go your shot glass route as well.

Bottled: Blonde Ale (14 days into bottle conditioning)
Bottled : Irish Red (started conditioning 3 hrs ago)

Fermentation stinks! Wait till you make Cider or Apfelwein.......Now those smell baddddd. Congrats and welcome to HBT. Cheers

chickypad said:

If your brews were okay before with just extract then you can rule out a number of things, like most problems with the water. Ferment temp sounds great and that's not an over the top beer at 1.052. My best guess would be the steeping temp. If your thermometer is off a little it's possible you could have been steeping in the 170 range which might give some harsh flavor. I would make sure your thermometer is calibrated and then try steeping around 150-155.

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I have a question about this. In one of the stickies in the forum about general techniques, there is a step by step process for all grain biab methods. In that process, the poster wrote that after mashing for the alotted time, he then brings the water up to 170, cuts the heat, and covers the pot, letting the grains sit for 10 more minutes. Finally, he pulls the grain bag out, drains, and brings to a boil. Per the post above, would this technique not be wise to practice, since steeping at the 170 range could impart harsh flavors? Thanks!

JeffoC6 said:

I have a question about this. In one of the stickies in the forum about general techniques, there is a step by step process for all grain biab methods. In that process, the poster wrote that after mashing for the alotted time, he then brings the water up to 170, cuts the heat, and covers the pot, letting the grains sit for 10 more minutes. Finally, he pulls the grain bag out, drains, and brings to a boil. Per the post above, would this technique not be wise to practice, since steeping at the 170 range could impart harsh flavors? Thanks!

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Anyone?

170 at 10 minutes is not enough to extract excess tannins from the grain. What he's doing is a "mash out" that is designed to raise the temp of the grain bed to a level that stops enzymatic activity and makes the wort draining more efficient.

I do BIAB and skip this step because I find it unnecessary and also because I squeeze the bag out by hand and 170 is an uncomfortable temperature at which to do this. But I also use a pretty standard coarse grind - I think lots of BIABers tend to grind a little finer because they can get away with it thanks to the bag. Mash out might make more sense there because the grain will be more tightly packed and will need all the help it can get.

Cool, you quoted yourself. I gotta try that once. Kind of like standing in a hall of mirrors.

Basically, 170 seems to be about the place where several things done. The enzymes stop working on the sugars, and the sugars become more fluid for flowing out of the mash tun. It is a borderline temperature. Go higher and you may risk tannins. But the short time in mash out at 170 never seems to do it.

(soupfist, you beat me to it. also, some BIAB guys report gaining 5 or more points in efficiency by mashing out. )

soupfist, your lastest blog entry is great!

Thanks to both of you guys...So you'd recommend this step if doing BIAB?

Putting room temperature or colder grains in 170 degree water will cause at least a 10 degree drop or so. So you would be at say 160 for the steep. (if you had 170 degree water to start).

Personally I would get the water to 165 and shoot for 155 after the grains are added myself. Make sure you are one or two degrees higher than the intended temperature, adding a few ice cubes is easier than having hot or boiling water handy every time if you miss low on the mash temp.

JeffoC6 said:

Thanks to both of you guys...So you'd recommend this step if doing BIAB?

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I do a 170 degree mash out for all of my batches - never had a problem thus far, get about 75% efficiency. 10 minutes is plenty of time to loosen up any remaining sugars and get them into your kettle.

Putting room temperature or colder grains in 170 degree water will cause at least a 10 degree drop or so. So you would be at say 160 for the steep. (if you had 170 degree water to start).

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The mash out step is done after the mash, so the water and grains are already at 148-158 or whatever your mash temp before you ramp up to 170 for the mashout. You aren't starting your mashout with cold grain.

FYI, tannin extraction from the grain starts at about 180F. It takes a bit of time to get the entire thermal mass of the grain up to 180F, so you'd really have to heat the wort closer to 200 for a few minutes before tannin extraction even started unless you were stirring like a mad man, so you really have to have a "DOH!" moment and forget about what's going on to extract tannins.

I do single infusion, and batch sparge (strike/drain/ sparge to pre boil volume) & the second addition goes in around 175F as is stir like crazy for a few minutes to keep things suspended. I have been looking at BIAB and see where some folks are coming in low on pre boil volume with the intent of rinsing the grain bag with cold water to reach the pre boil volume, before squeezing the bag (just for comfort sake) and say the efficiency does not drop doing it this way. Thoughts anyone? Cheers