55 Gallon AE Kettle system

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wadefisher

wadefisher

Brew Meister
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Joined
Jul 14, 2009
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Location
Lewistown / Dade City
Applying for Brewery License. :rockin:

Getting ready to build a 1.5 barrel system out of SS 55 gallon drums and various tanks I have plus 2 Stout 125 gallon fermenters. Any and all info will be appreciated. I am no stranger to 'constructive' critisism. My BIG questions are about trying to make a 55 gallon drum into an ELECTRIC boil kettle.
I am making one that operated on NG for backup. I think I have the HLT and the Mash/Lauter Tun figured out.

I really would like to power the Boil Kettle on 3 phase 480 but that is not a requirement. Yes I have the electric service available.

I currently have 2 All Electric 10 Gallon systems (single phase 220). One is infusion only the other is a RIMMS system.

My weak point is making a controller that would work with 3 phase power. Or to calculate how much wattage of elements I need to get a good boil in a reasonable time without a controller and still not over do it. I thought some real hands on experience would help here.

Any and ALL input on the electric part and the 'drunken stuper :drunk: ' idea of my brewery is welcome. Don't worry as much about the business side of it that is my better part. I have accounts waiting for me to go public. But input is still welcomed.
It used to be they talked about buying a vineyard when you retired, now it's all about opening a brewery!
 
I think it will be very hard to get 1.5 barrels out of a 55 gallon BK. My BK is a 55 gallon SS drum and I make 35 gallon batches. I start with a preboil volume of 43-45 gallons. I suppose I could increase it to 40 gallon batches but I don't think 46.5 gallons is realistic. 3 phase 480 would be great. The elements would be more expensive but I think you could use a PID and several SSRs.
 
You should check out Kals theelectricbrewery.com. he has a topic on 1 bbl electric. You can use a 50 amp service with 2 4500 watt elements for the boil
 
40 gallon batches are really the limit with 55 gallon tanks, good luck with electric at this size. share your work-up ideas and thoughts, I am gas fired.
 
wadefisher,

A 3 phase system would not be all that difficult to setup and control. When you have a good idea of your HLT and BOIL kettle sizes, I'll put together a suggested controller diagram.

P-J
 
P-J said:
wadefisher,

A 3 phase system would not be all that difficult to setup and control. When you have a good idea of your HLT and BOIL kettle sizes, I'll put together a suggested controller diagram.

P-J
Click to expand...

Can you do 3 phase on residental power? I did not think so.
 
Yes I do have 3 phase. This is going into a commercial building. I have a business in an industrial park. I am sectioning off an area that is about 700 sq ft. Which includes a defunct walk in cooler. I will be putting a new freezer unit on the walk in. Already has tile flooring. This is part of what use to be a large kitchen for a company 40 years ago. This is to be my 'pilot' setup to get some public exposure and feed back before doing the BIG plunge.

'milldoggy' I will check out Kals topic. I am on that site lately reading about his controller. As I said, that is my weak area. The one I use now (on both systems) was from brewmation. Like alot of things with brewing I'd like to customize it how I want and know how to change it as needed.
 
P-J said:
wadefisher,

A 3 phase system would not be all that difficult to setup and control. When you have a good idea of your HLT and BOIL kettle sizes, I'll put together a suggested controller diagram.

P-J
Click to expand...

P-J
I do not plan on making the controller control more than one unit. I would like to make this totally modular. And I want to be able to power any and all units as needed. Even at the same time. Plus by keeping it modular you can 'plug' and play with new or different kettles.

The HLT's will be 2 80 gallon hot water tanks. I have done this with a 20 gallon tank for my one setup. I disable the built in thermostats add a recirc pump add level control, MAKE SURE it is an OPEN system (no pressure) and a sight glass for volume measuring. What is a HLT but a glorified Hot water heater. These will be single phase 240v. just because thats how they come and the commercial Hotwater heaters with 480v are really expensive.

The Mash/Lauter Tun; I am planning on either a false bottom or multiple bazooka's. My shop guy is getting the perfed stainless to keep on hand. Oh yes, I have my own shop that can do basic stainless work.
I want to recirc the wort through a heat exchanger made out of a 15 gal Keggle with Copper Coil inside and its own controller and electric element to do step mashing.
I like using the float valve from Blichmann when sparging on my 10 gallon system so I'm thinking about incorperating something like that.

Boil Kettle; I have NG in the building so I will build one to use this. But I want to make one electric. I have enjoyed my 10 gallon one better since doing so. I am thinking about these elements, I use some of these in the 240v Single phase for heating other products (not boiling)
http://www.mcmaster.com/#immersion-heaters/=e0pxsq
Their temperature controlled one's are very basic. One thought I had was to just make a potentiometer inline to get the right boil.
I am planning on putting Tri-Clamp connections thru 55 gallon stainless drum then a TC-Thread fitting to put the elements in. Allow for easy removal and maintanence

I believe in KISS

Gotta GO, Thanks All
 
To get this up to 1.5 barrel net which of these sounds best.

1. Weld more head space to the top of drum boil kettle to increase gallons
2. Boil concentrated wort then finish off with boiled water to hit target
3. I have a 80 gallon tank but the bottom is 'concave'. Issues with trub.

Any thoughts ???
 
Also; Talking with Shop man. He thinks instead of 2 Water Heaters we should install one as described and put in a 'whole house' Natural Gas' water heater to pre heat water going into the HLT so we can reheat for successive brews quicker.

Any thoughts?


Thanks All
 
Natural Gas on demand water heaters have much better reviews than that of electric ones and are very efficient. Should help a lot in conjunction with a bulk water heater or hlt.
You could also tee off of them for cleaning water.

If you can live with a reduced flow rate you could probably run two in series and eliminate the HLT all together. Just a thought...
 
Since you have natural gas on site have you thought about doing a simple steam system for the boiler and or mash temperature controlls? With 3 phase you should be able to get big enough elements to make heating/ boiling quick and controllers should be pretty strait forward.

I would be really intrested in what kind of elements you end up with, I am in the process of designing a 2 BBL system and don't have the ability to use gas. I am debating on an electric heating or an electric fired steam generator.
 
mredge73 said:
Natural Gas on demand water heaters have much better reviews than that of electric ones and are very efficient. Should help a lot in conjunction with a bulk water heater or hlt.
You could also tee off of them for cleaning water.

If you can live with a reduced flow rate you could probably run two in series and eliminate the HLT all together. Just a thought...
Click to expand...

We debated this today. I was concerned with 2 things.

a) Overriding the control unit in an electric instant water heater we had available to look at seem like it would be more difficult than the regular water heater. They usually max at like 130*F
b) Would we be able to get a constant temperature within 1 or 2*F, I fear there may be fluctuation

But the idea is very interesting. This was a discussion today with my Shop man.

Note: I have not had a NG instant HWH to look inside the guts or see one run. But as you said mredge73 they seem to get better reviews.
 
jtsims21 said:
Since you have natural gas on site have you thought about doing a simple steam system for the boiler and or mash temperature controlls?
Click to expand...
I actually have an industrial steam boiler on site. But haven't seen an easy way to use in the process without steam jacket kettles and I don't have any extra kettles. These are hard to find at a good price, even though I have 2 in use for other applications.
jtsims21 said:
With 3 phase you should be able to get big enough elements to make heating/ boiling quick and controllers should be pretty strait forward.
Click to expand...
So I hope and assume. Just getting a clear plan on paper is the thing right now.
 
Hmmm... It seems strange that they didn't design it to work with one motor. I guess it would have increased the price too much to have one motor drive the two rollers in different directions while still enabling crush adjustment. It looks well made, though. The price is great, too. I like it.
 
kevink said:
Hmmm... It seems strange that they didn't design it to work with one motor. I guess it would have increased the price too much to have one motor drive the two rollers in different directions while still enabling crush adjustment. It looks well made, though. The price is great, too. I like it.
Click to expand...

My thoughts also. Will look into whether it can be rigged with one motor.
 
McMaster didn't seem to have too many high wattage 3 phase heating elements.
A couple of single phase 240V might be better/cheaper.

For successive brews, consider feeding your HLT with water preheated from your wort chiller.
 
Just a thought about thankless water heaters as an HLT, most residential ones will max out at 140ºF. Commercial ones can get up higher.

I was thinking about this a while back, because I have a Rinnai tankless water heater all ready. I found that for some models you can use the commercial controller with them to get the heater out put at higher temps.

specifically the Rinnai R75 ( the one I have) will do 165ºF at 5 g/m, and the R94i will do 185º at 5g/m.

The guys at psycho brew have a commercial tankless water heater they sell with their 3bbl system. and the old Green flash brewery used to have 3 in line, not sure if they used them as an HLT though.

Ebay some times has smoking deals on steam kettles too, or you can do a google search ( steam kettle site:craigslist.org ) and find some big steam kettles for cheap. there is an 80 gallon for sale here in SD for 500!
 
*raises hand* I have questions!

You've listed a good amount of equipment throughout this thread, and it's hard to visualize everything you have: all kinds of drums/tanks/vessel, a shop, 2 steamboilers (what are you using those for?), 2 electric brew systems, and all kinds of stuff I'd love to have. Could you post some pics or organize everything you have into a list? How much can you get that barley crusher for? Have you been to bluto555.com? When I open my local beer distribution business, I will definitely consider using the BCS-462.
 
wadefisher said:
I actually have an industrial steam boiler on site. But haven't seen an easy way to use in the process without steam jacket kettles and I don't have any extra kettles. These are hard to find at a good price, even though I have 2 in use for other applications.
QUOTE]

You dont have to have a jacketed kettle, you can do steam infusion with copper coils inside your existing drums. You loose a little volume but your heating should be slightly more effecient, and you already have a boiler... why not use it, it will make mash control and steps very easy!
Click to expand...
 
adam01 said:
McMaster didn't seem to have too many high wattage 3 phase heating elements.
A couple of single phase 240V might be better/cheaper.

For successive brews, consider feeding your HLT with water preheated from your wort chiller.
Click to expand...

Talked to an electrician friend of mine. He says I won't gain much with 3 phase heating elements. Biggest advantage is the wire run will use a lower gauge. So not so concerned about this now. I believe I have 2 240 single phase units I can get off the bone pile. Like these.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#immersion-heaters/=e1mfqy
Mine 4500 watts each. McMasters do not list this one but thats what I have.
 
I use 3 of these heating elements in our pressure washers / steam cleaners that I build at work:
2x I-10053-SP ThermCoil Heater Element, 10KW, 480V $289.00
1x EI-10053-S ThermCoil Heater Element, 10KW, 480V, Thermostat @150F $331.22
http://thermcoil.com/
Look around their site, they make many different industrial elements.

I use a float to keep from burning them up:
L-1100 Murphy Float/Level $222.75
I use magnetic contactors to pull them in:
CR305D604 25HP Magnetic Contactors $451.00

There are cheaper ways to do this but the environment that I work in demands top quality industrial parts. I have built over 200 of these units with very few failures.
 
Bsquared said:
The guys at psycho brew have a commercial tankless water heater they sell with their 3bbl system. and the old Green flash brewery used to have 3 in line, not sure if they used them as an HLT though.
Click to expand...
Good info. I had been there a good while back but did not bring that to mind. This idea still has me peaked.
Bsquared said:
Ebay some times has smoking deals on steam kettles too, or you can do a google search ( steam kettle site:craigslist.org ) and find some big steam kettles for cheap. there is an 80 gallon for sale here in SD for 500!
Click to expand...
I guess I should search more. Where was that 80 gallon one listed. If the jacket was for sure good I would buy that and ship it in.
 
jtsims21 said:
You dont have to have a jacketed kettle, you can do steam infusion with copper coils inside your existing drums. You loose a little volume but your heating should be slightly more effecient, and you already have a boiler... why not use it, it will make mash control and steps very easy!
Click to expand...

Do you mean direct infusion or using steam circulated in the coil and back through the condensent. I would be a little concerned with direct infusion as to the quality of water comming out. The system is large and supplies other equipment and the lines are black iron. I had though of using kettles but not of putting a coil in the mash tank. I'm sure it cant be any harder to control a steam valve on a solinode then an element.

hmmmm......
 
EarthBound said:
*raises hand* I have questions!

You've listed a good amount of equipment throughout this thread, and it's hard to visualize everything you have: all kinds of drums/tanks/vessel, a shop, 2 steamboilers (what are you using those for?), 2 electric brew systems, and all kinds of stuff I'd love to have. Could you post some pics or organize everything you have into a list? How much can you get that barley crusher for? Have you been to bluto555.com? When I open my local beer distribution business, I will definitely consider using the BCS-462.
Click to expand...

I am in a bussiness that handles and processes honey. So I have a nice 'bone pile' to pick from. Plus some extra resorces not available to a lot of homebrewers. I am in the process of getting all the 'junk' I think is relevant to the brewery into one area. Its acutally in 2 different states right now. Florida and Pennsylvania. I am in the Denali right now heading to FL at 75 MPH (don' worry ...girl friend is driving not me:eek: ) Next truck back to PA is taking several tanks north. One reason I have 2 systems is because I spend a several months in FL. My bussiness has a base there to. And I like to brew so I have one at each place.
About October 15th or so I'm going back to PA and getting serious at building this. Which is why I'm here getting that 'objective' point of view. You can't beat the info you get here. Or someone just looking at it from a different angle to make you think stuff out.
 
wadefisher said:
I guess I should search more. Where was that 80 gallon one listed. If the jacket was for sure good I would buy that and ship it in.
Click to expand...

It was listed here In SD, but I think the listing expired, I have Steam kettle on my RSS feed for San Diego craigslist, so if I see it again Ill let you know.
 
wadefisher said:
Do you mean direct infusion or using steam circulated in the coil and back through the condensent. I would be a little concerned with direct infusion as to the quality of water comming out. The system is large and supplies other equipment and the lines are black iron. I had though of using kettles but not of putting a coil in the mash tank. I'm sure it cant be any harder to control a steam valve on a solinode then an element.

hmmmm......
Click to expand...

Steam would be run through the coil and back to the condensent. A couple pressure sensors to go with your valves and you will be in buisness on a controller.
 
I would not worry about the hlt power too much. The brewery I work at uses a electric hlt , we fill with the chilled water, and typicay run the hlt over night to get to temp. Make your hlt large enough, and relax.

As far as what you were thinking oh using a keg with a heater for mash temp control, that sounds similar to a grant. What I would do is let The mash gravity drains into the tank and when full is pumped back into the mlt. Controling the pump with a float switch. This is also much better for the pump and prevents a vacume from forming at the false bottom
 
wadefisher said:
Talked to an electrician friend of mine. He says I won't gain much with 3 phase heating elements. Biggest advantage is the wire run will use a lower gauge. So not so concerned about this now. I believe I have 2 240 single phase units I can get off the bone pile. Like these.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#immersion-heaters/=e1mfqy
Mine 4500 watts each. McMasters do not list this one but thats what I have.
Click to expand...

Bummer. I'm 3/4 the way through drawing a custom diagram for you for a 480V 3 phase control system.

I'll quit while I'm ahead and stop wasting my time.

Wishing you the best in your new adventure...

P-J
 
Putting a couple thoughts together here.
Since I do have steam power. Maybe I should be thinking in this direction. What do you think about putting a stainless coil in the Boil Kettle and using steam to boil. Would we be able to reasonably get enough surface area?
? This would save finding the proper size jacketed kettle and be easier to make other adaptations. I'm invisioning something like Kals but run steam through the coil to heat the wort being boiled in the kettle.
http://theelectricbrewery.com/hot-liquor-tank?page=5

Also for the MLT. This would seem simple enough. The tubing is rated for way more presure than we would ever put to it. I forget the HP rating of my boiler but it is more than enough. We have 2 working presures 15 psi and 40 psi. That stainless tubing is rated for 1000 psi. I run 40 psi in my 40 gallon jacket kettle and cook product at *250. Can get a batch there in like 30 minutes or less. How much less/more efficient having the coil right inside the wort I don't know. You would think more. How much coil? Most presure kettles are only jacketed partially.

And we are planning on going from this 1.5 barrel system to a 10 barrel system and possibly building it out of reporposed vessels. Steam is a much more viable option on the larger build so this would be getting us valuable experience.

Now for the real kicker. Anyone read the article by Jamil about using immersion chiller with whirlpool being better for chilling than plate chiller? You could boil with this built in coil. Then switch it over to water with a couple valves to chill your wort. Same coil already in the kettle and sterilized.
And no I have not had too much beer :(. Just thinking while stuck in the SUV headed to FL

Anyone thoughts at all please post.
 
P-J; Thanks for the effort, sorry if this plan is a little in flux. That's why I started this thread to put heads together and it is already helping. The 3 phase idea is not dead. It just now has competion.
 
One reason the 3 phase is still viable will be if the closes panel to the brewery room is tapped I may have to bring power from the MAIN which is 150' away. This is where we may still decide to buy the 3 phase elements. Unless the steam thing is workable, then I wouldn't need all the extra power..... geezzz....
 
IMHO - You are far better off with the immersion chiller. The plate chiller will give you serious grief down the road, especially with your intended setup. Jamil's setup is the hallmark on how to accomplish it. If you do go with a plate chiller, do not get one that cannot be taken apart. You need to get one that can be completely disassembled plate by plate. Trust me on this and do not throw your money away.!

Your second reply (below): Keep in mind that if you go single phase with the power required for your intended brewery, you dollar outlay will more than triple and become extremely complicated for you in the process. You are, after all, trying to set up a commercial brewery - No?

P-J

wadefisher said:
...
Now for the real kicker. Anyone read the article by Jamil about using immersion chiller with whirlpool being better for chilling than plate chiller? You could boil with this built in coil. Then switch it over to water with a couple valves to chill your wort. Same coil already in the kettle and sterilized.
...
Click to expand...

wadefisher said:
One reason the 3 phase is still viable will be if the closes panel to the brewery room is tapped I may have to bring power from the MAIN which is 150' away. This is where we may still decide to buy the 3 phase elements. Unless the steam thing is workable, then I wouldn't need all the extra power..... geezzz....
Click to expand...
 
Forget 3 phase. No need to mess with that if you dont have to. Everything is more expensive. Stick to single phase. I used 3 4500w elements in my boil kettles. I ran a 60a circuit to each kettle. I too used 55 gallon drums. I easily boiled 50 gallon batches. You just need to skim the hot break and watch the boil closely. I had two boil kettles and I was able to get a finished batch of 75 gallons after all transfers.
 

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