ABV tampering advice, what do you think?

So, 5 days into my first batch fermenting away, I've read and been enlightened enough to recognize I've made some pretty laughable errors (as you'll see) that I'm shaking my head about now. The biggest flaw IMO is the painfully obvious lack of LME (Somehow used 3.3 lbs instead of the typical 6.6lbs). It is my understanding the VERY best I could hope for with grain assistance is maybe 3.0-3.5 ABV, but I'm worried I won't even be pushing that. Other errors include... steeping the grains too hot and short (165 for 30 mins), no OG reading, and overpitching yeast (2-11g pkts). So...on to the questions....#1- Some beers from 3 to 4 ABV are quite enjoyable for some, does a recipe such as this have any shot at landing in that ABV range? #2-if not, should i pitch in some sugar/honey/dry extract in the primary to attempt upping the ABV as a last resort? (so I'm not sipping what is basically an NA beer). I appreciate the patience with noobie silliness. My recipe was as follows...

3 Gallon Boil, 5.0 Gallon Batch

3.3 Lbs Bavarian Wheat LME (60 minute boil)
1.0 Lbs Flaked Wheat (30 mins @ 165)
1.0 Lbs Munich Malt (30 mins @ 165)
1.0 Lbs White Wheat Malt (30 mins @ 165)
0.50 oz Liberty Hops (60 minute boil)
1 Tbsp Corn Sugar (late addition, 15 minute boil)
2 (11g) pkts Safale WB06 wheat beer yeast

Despite the endless errors, it does at least have all the characteristics of healthy fermentation thus far (bubbling rate, healthy appearing krausen, 65-70 F, etc.)

Wheats are a perfect style for fruit additions. You could rack this guy to secondary after primary fermentation, add 4-6lbs of fruit or 3-4 lbs of fruit puree in secondary, let it ferment out, and boost your ABV a little in the process without throwing the beer's balance out of wack.

I appreciate the reply, I had not considered that. I wish I had done the original gravity. Im really curious where this one will end up. I'd probably hold off the fruit/sugar additions if I could safely say it's at least 3's for ABV. I'd shrug, laugh, and chalk it up to a first batch while enjoying it for what it's worth. 2's or below I'd probably be exploring what you suggested along with alternative ways to up the ABV without sacrificing taste. Part of me says first ever batch, just hold off and see how it goes....and the other part doesn't want to be drinking 54 beers that are 1.8% ABV haha

According to Beer Calculus your beer will end up in the 3.2% range but without knowing the alpha acid of the bittering hops it looks like it will be a very sweet beer. Beer Calculus assumes that the alpha acid would be about 5%.

thanks I appreciate the calculator check and found it very useful! yeah it appears my IBU's are @9.3 which is low even for wheat. hopefully the hops offset it enough to not be like drinking molasses

I'm pretty new, but is steeping the grains at 165 for 30 min too hot or too short? Those numbers don't seem unreasonable to me.

Both. U want 150 for 60. I'll be surprised if u get more then 3%

You could boil up another couple pounds of DME with more hops than the first attempt to make wort with higher bitterness to add to your fermenter. Add this to the fermenter when the fermentation slows. Staggered sugar additions like this will reduce the chance of stressing the yeast, and help increase the ABV and bitterness. That way you can save the batch.

For an extract where you are just steeping? I was way off. The recipe I read told me 160f for 10 min. Are the strategies for steeping in extract recipes vastly different depending on styles or was mine just bad? Sorry to hijack, I'm just very surprised.

Steeping for short time is normal with extract brewing. Probably 30 min. But definitively lower temp

Hmmm. Ok I'll definitely keep that in mind in the future. Surprised my homebrew store has that in their recipe. They seem pretty knowledgeable.

Are there some grains that are ok with shorter, hotter steeps? Or is 150 for an hour a pretty good across-the-board rule of thumb?

There are some grains that require steeping at different temps like 122 F protein rest I believe, like wheat. But 150 is good middle. Depending on the style ud want higher (more body) or lower (more fermentables) temp

thanks for all the input guys. and yes, though i have limited experience i second all the grain temp advice from mad chemist. if you're looking to get some fermentable sugar benefit from grains, to boost your ABV, you really have to watch those temps. my understanding is the starch converting enzymes in the grain get deactivated much above 160 and you're left without much ABV benefit from the grain, though for some that's fine because the malt extract covers their bases and the grains are only there for flavor/body, not alcohol

also i really think i'm gonna take the "boiling up a dose of dme/hops" advice and run with it. 2 lbs DME and 3/4 oz of hops seem to "right" the wrongs of my recipe, on paper anyway (beer calculus/calculators online). any further advice before i do this from anyone? i'm thinking pretty straight forward..... boil it up with minimal water (to not dilute the heck out of the batch any further) and let it cool to the temp of the primary fermenter, pop the top on my carboy and very carefully siphon it in without much splashing or 02 introduction. i know additions to the primary are not really ideal, but given the consensus i'm gathering on here it seems like most of you out there would make an addition and not just ride it out

When I use steeping grains I add them to hot tap water and have the stove burner on high (glass top electric). I steep for 20 minutes or when it hits 170 degrees. The time and temperature meet closely.

So, your 30 minutes at 150 degrees should be good.

You won't get much sugars from steeping grains, more about flavor and color. Steeping is just like a tea bag, not mashing. 150-160 for 20 to 30 minutes is what is recommended by most.

And if I was you I would just ride it, it might not have a lot of ABV but it should still taste decent. If anything I would do the fruit addition and notch that off your list to see if you like it. If you start messing with adding DME to your first batch you might end up with more problems. Chalk it up to being your first brew, laugh about it and learn from it. 3.2% isn't that bad, and not something I would risk ruining my beer to try and boost.

As far as the steeping grains portion of this post is concerned, I asked a steeping question recently, got some great answers that you might find helpful.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/specialty-grain-steeping-question-357526/

I wouldnt worry about overpitching. The worst that would do is cause a blowoff. Overpicthing is much better than under.

I am wondering about the 1 tbsp Corn sugar? That seems an odd amount to add to the boil. Are you sure it wasn't supposed to be 1 lb? I have seen recipes that call for less extract and add a pound of sugar. That would have raised the ABV some.

I hear you AMonkey....the one catch to that is 3.2% is on paper and assuming i get the most from my grains, while my gut tells me im probably looking high 2% at best because I steeped the grains too short and hot to get as much of the fermentable sugar boost as I'd like to have in this situation (165 for 30mins). But yeah, After going back and forth, I've officially decided to ride this one out, as being my first brew. If its an "Ultra Light Wheat" then so be it haha. Sure I could toss in sugar, honey, extracts, fruit etc. and manipulate it in a variety of ways, but then I'll probably be wondering how things would've went untouched. To be honest it kind of has my curiosity now, even though a 2-3 ABV beer is quite foreign to me. Moral of the story is I've learned alot from this one and will be much better prepared for the next batch. A big thanks to everyone, look forward to cracking open my first bottle of homebrew in about 3 weeks, and you never know, maybe I've struck Ultra Light Beer Gold haha

yeah in hindsight the 1 TBSP of corn sugar was basically a worthless addition. I now have at least a beginner's grasp of how certain amounts of fermentable sugars influence ABV.

yeah, a friend of mine threw an extra 10oz of corn sugar in with one of his recipes that he has made 20 or so times and by our calculations, it increased 0.3 abv
Not totally worthless, but pretty darn close.

madchemist83 said:

There are some grains that require steeping at different temps like 122 F protein rest I believe, like wheat. But 150 is good middle. Depending on the style ud want higher (more body) or lower (more fermentables) temp

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Not to nitpick, but these are steeping grains, not a mash. You're not going to get more fermentables at ~150 and more unfermentables ~160. The fermentables in an extract batch come from well, the extract. The steeping grains are for color, flavor and body, very little if any fermentable sugar comes from them. What does is the sugars that are present on the caramel malts and are simply washed off, you could do that with warm tap water. Steep the grains in warm water, 150-160 is ideal, for 20-30 mins, it's that simple.

OP, I'd just let this one ride and chalk it up to learning. It'll be low abv for sure, ~3% according to BeerSmith. But blindly throwing more sugar at it to boost abv may give you a very undrinkable beer. Hefe's are s'posed to be lighter, so it's not like it's out of style. And the recipe is designed to make a balanced beer, so throwing more fermentables at is would throw the beer out of balance as it boosts the abv. Stick with what ya got, and for your next brew, choose a style that's a bit more up your alley abv wise.

Sorry too much in all grain
But seriously just rinse it with warm tap water? Sugar is on the caramel ?
First of all enzymes will not activate at warm tap water temps.
Second majority of sugars are inside the grain as complex sugars that's why u crush the grain.

madchemist83 said:

Sorry too much in all grain
But seriously just rinse it with warm tap water? Sugar is on the caramel ?
First of all enzymes will not activate at warm tap water temps.
Second majority of sugars are inside the grain as complex sugars that's why u crush the grain.
Don't trying to be nitpicking but suck on that.

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As I'm sucking, I'm thinking about caramel malt, aka crystal malt, aptly named for the crystalized sugars on the (crushed) grain. Sugars, of the fermentable variety, are a product of the malting and kilning process used to make these cara (crystal) type malts. You can read all about that process early on in The Complete Joy of Homebrewing. The fermentable sugars on cara-type malts are minimal, but they're there, and yes, you can simply rinse those off.
While I continue to suck, you should think about this.... the enzymes that won't activate in warm water (which you are correct about) are not present in specialty grains. Specialty grains lack the enzymes and the diastatic power to self convert, thus the reason you don't get fermentable sugars out of them. This is why all grain brewers use base malt and not just specialty (steeping) grains to make a fermentable wort.
Seems to me a brewer with his mind stuck "too much on all grain" would have a decent grasp of all this. I know that I do, but then again, I did before I ever even thought about getting into all grain. After all, we're talking the basics of steeping grains here, not the almighty (and not all that difficult as some would like to make it out to be) all grain.

It's cool. Errare humanum est. Point was that I was talking about all grain recipies and not that I brewed many is that I'm getting more into it. And I hardly believe that specialty grains have no sugar inside the actual grain. Point taken but you might as well keep sucking lol

madchemist83 said:

I hardly believe that specialty grains have no sugar inside the actual grain.

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Neither do I.... thus my explanation of the sugars in cara type malts.
What I'm not getting is the point you're trying to make......?

And as for your insistence that I continue to "keep sucking", and in the vein of your ever so witty Latin , Cha mhisd’ a’ ghealach na coin a bhith comhartaich rithe. In other words, Póg mo thóin.

Sláinte!

It's grain. It needs sugars inside as energy. Different malting and kilning techniques can probably extract sugars onto the surface but not all. I respectfully disagree

madchemist83 said:

Иди ты нахуй ебаный придурок
How bout that ?
Point was that u should steep grain longer then 10 min at 165. If you trying to be smart it's cool I respect that but if u just want to be a clown I can't stop u from following ur dream

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Specialty grains only need to be steeped long enough to dissolve their already converted sugars....no enzymes required. The OP has Munich, flaked Wheat, and wheat malt, all of which COULD be converted but his recipe does not contain any grain with diastatic power to provide the enzymes to do so. The extract is the main source in that recipe with very little provided by the other grain...no matter how long they were steeped at any temperature.

helibrewer said:

Specialty grains only need to be steeped long enough to dissolve their already converted sugars....no enzymes required. The OP has Munich, flaked Wheat, and wheat malt, all of which COULD be converted but his recipe does not contain any grain with diastatic power to provide the enzymes to do so. The extract is the main source in that recipe with very little provided by the other grain...no matter how long they were steeped at any temperature.

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Exactly, these are steeping grains, not a mash. Temps aren't all that important while steeping, plain and simple. You're not trying to get fermentable sugar from steeping, it's merely a step to provide color and flavor in a beer.
I'm not claiming to be an authority on this topic, nor even to be all that smart, but I have brewed a $hit ton of beer and I learned long ago not to believe everything that I read (especially on the interwebs).... And I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :fro:

question for you guys...
would live bottle conditioning increase my % at all?
or just the standard .2%?

nvs-brew said:

question for you guys...
would live bottle conditioning increase my % at all?
or just the standard .2%?

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Maybe around .1-.2%. Adding more sugar than that could easily result in bottle bombs.

nvs-brew said:

question for you guys...
would live bottle conditioning increase my % at all?
or just the standard .2%?

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Not significantly, just a tenth or two.

ok so for example:
adding a cooper carbination drop will give me the same increase of alcohol as adding abit of yeast and sugar to the bottle?

nvs-brew said:

ok so for example:
adding a cooper carbination drop will give me the same increase of alcohol as adding abit of yeast and sugar to the bottle?

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Pretty much. Not sure how much sugar's actually in one drop, but yes, that's the gist of it.

Champion! Cheers
So why do ppl live condition?
For flavour?

nvs-brew said:

Champion! Cheers
So why do ppl live condition?
For flavour?

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For ease and cost, I'd guess. Most brewers don't get a kegging system because they're expensive and they can simply add sugar before bottling. You're right, it does add a depth of flavor, but I think it's the operator friendly aspect that is most appealing.

madchemist83 said:

What's a difference ?

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Helibrewer and Nordeastbrewer already explained quite concisely.

From what I'm understanding, and I am merely an observer with no practical experience of AG so far, steeping is essentially just to get sugars from specialty grains for flavour, body, mouthfeel, that don't really ferment.

Mashing is to get the sugars from base malts that will mostly ferment, depending on the temperatures mashed at. However, specialty grains can be mashed with base malts, due to the diastatic property of the base malt, and enzymes released which help conversion of the specialty grains into fermentable sugars too.

Remember our forum rules- no namecalling or personal attacks. Snide remarks belong in that category.

If your post was deleted, it is because you broke the rules of the forum. Banning may result if this continues, with no further warning.



Crystal malts ("cara" type malts) are premashed, so to speak, so that the crystalline sugars are available without mashing. Steeping for 15-20 minutes at temperatures up to 170 degrees is absolutely adequate. Steeping for longer will do nothing- it's not like the grains well get "wetter" or anything.

Misinformation abounds, but let's get our facts straight before correcting someone else. Thanks!

Thanks, Yooper. So for the record, my LHBS wasn't crazy when they suggested 165 for 10 min considering it was an extract brew.

freisste said:

I'm pretty new, but is steeping the grains at 165 for 30 min too hot or too short? Those numbers don't seem unreasonable to me.

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I was told a few weeks ago that the time/temp wasn't critical because I was only after color/flavor, not fermentibles, but I tend to believe everything I read on the internet...

P.S. I grew up in the UP.