Mr. Malty Calculator confusion

So up till now, I've only used dry yeast and re-hydrated prior to pitching. Mr. Malty would always show about 1 packet of dry yeast should work. For my next batch, the LHBS was out of dry so I got a smack pack of 1056. The Calculator tells me I need a 3 LITER starter for a 5 gallon batch of 1.070 OG wort. What am I doing wrong? That amount seems laughable.

Mr. Malty

That sounds about right. You have to remember that dry yeast packets have a lot more cells than liquid yeasts typically. If you use a stirplate you can use a smaller starter, but for a big beer like that you'll need a big starter.

Yes, liquid yeast really needs a starter even for a small beer. A bigger beer like yours would require more yeast. I think, though, for a 1.070 beer, even with dry yeast, two packages are recommended.

Yeah, I used 2 packages for that pliny clone. 3 liters just seems like a lot of liquid to have to throw in there...won't that effect the FG?

dstar26t said:

Yeah, I used 2 packages for that pliny clone. 3 liters just seems like a lot of liquid to have to throw in there...won't that effect the FG?

Click to expand...

Yep. Decant it

Yep, that sounds about right. It means to make a starter with three liters of wort, not three liters of slurry.

I bet you can get by just fine with far less, though. The three liters is just the optimal pitching rate.


TL

There are two schools of thought about liquid starters. The first school says to pitch the starter at peak activity, usually 18 to 24 hours into fermentation. The yeast is still in suspension, so you have to pitch the whole thing, possibly adding some off flavors from the starter beer. The second school says to let the starter complete fermentation and rebuild its reserves of trehalose, glycogen and other nutrients. You let the starter ferment for a couple of days then refrigerate. The yeast will settle out in a day or so, and you can pour off the starter beer, leaving just enough to swirl up the yeast.

If I have time I like to do it the second way. As Yooper mentioned, that gives you a chance to build it up multiple times if you want. It also lets you pitch just yeast. If I don't have time I'll do it the first way. If I really don't have time I'll just throw money at the problem and pitch multiple packs of yeast. My last brew was a Vienna Lager. I realized too late (Sunday afternoon) that my only possible brew day was the next day. There was no way to build a starter so I just bought a couple of extra yeast packs and pitched three of the damn things. It's chugging along nicely but I don't want to do that again -- $20 worth of yeast adds up.

Chad

Yeast Starter Section of Palmer's "How to Brew"

Oh, I see.

So, smack the pack...once it has swelled, boil 3 liters of 1.040 gravity DME + water. Add the smack pack once the 3 liters has cooled. Let it do it's thing for ~3 days. Throw into fridge for a day. Let it warm back up to room temp and siphon out the beer before pitching.

That's it? No yeast nutrient needed besides what's in the smack pack? Will this all fit into a 1 gallon growler?

dstar26t said:

Oh, I see.

So, smack the pack...once it has swelled, boil 3 liters of 1.040 gravity DME + water. Add the smack pack once the 3 liters has cooled. Let it do it's thing for ~3 days. Throw into fridge for a day. Let it warm back up to room temp and siphon out the beer before pitching.

That's it? No yeast nutrient needed besides what's in the smack pack?

Click to expand...

You got it. You might want to step up the starter (i.e. make a smaller starter then add some more wort after a couple days)

dstar26t said:

Will this all fit into a 1 gallon growler?

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Growlers are typically 2L (1/2 gallon). If it were me I'd just make a 2L total starter so that it all conveniently fits into one growler. Like TexLaw said, you should be fine with that size starter.

I never use a starter at 1.06 and below. Never had trouble having a good ferment. For Ales that is, I use dry Lager yeast anyway. The cell count is sufficient and marketed as direct pitchable for 1.05 and below on both the Wyeast smack packs and White Labs vials iirc.

"The Activator™ is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard strength ale wort (1.034-1.060 SG) with professional pitching rates. For lagers, we recommend inoculating the wort at warm temperatures (68-70°F/ 20-21°C), waiting for signs of fermentation, and then adjusting to the desired temperature. Alternatively, for pitching into cold conditions (34-58°F/ 1-14°C) or higher gravity wort, we recommend increasing this pitching rate."

"How do I make a "starter"?

A "starter" can be any volume of wort that you add yeast to before using it to make your beer. The yeast get active in this smaller volume, usually for 1-2 days, and then can be added to 5 gallons of beer, or 10 gallons, or whatever size your brewing. This can be a good way to "proof" the yeast, and also when making high gravity beers. White Labs recommends on their label to make a starter "if the gravity is over 1.070, if the yeast is past its "best before" date, or if a faster start is desired." "

So they claim even slightly higher OG's.

Chad said:

The second school says to let the starter complete fermentation and rebuild its reserves of trehalose, glycogen and other nutrients. You let the starter ferment for a couple of days then refrigerate. The yeast will settle out in a day or so, and you can pour off the starter beer, leaving just enough to swirl up the yeast.

Click to expand...

That, right there, is the school to which Mr. Malty subscribes.

And, three liters and a smack pack will fit just fine in a one gallon growler.


TL

Chad said:

There are two schools of thought about liquid starters. The first school says to pitch the starter at peak activity, usually 18 to 24 hours into fermentation. The yeast is still in suspension, so you have to pitch the whole thing, possibly adding some off flavors from the starter beer. The second school says to let the starter complete fermentation and rebuild its reserves of trehalose, glycogen and other nutrients. You let the starter ferment for a couple of days then refrigerate. The yeast will settle out in a day or so, and you can pour off the starter beer, leaving just enough to swirl up the yeast.

If I have time I like to do it the second way. As Yooper mentioned, that gives you a chance to build it up multiple times if you want. It also lets you pitch just yeast. If I don't have time I'll do it the first way. If I really don't have time I'll just throw money at the problem and pitch multiple packs of yeast. My last brew was a Vienna Lager. I realized too late (Sunday afternoon) that my only possible brew day was the next day. There was no way to build a starter so I just bought a couple of extra yeast packs and pitched three of the damn things. It's chugging along nicely but I don't want to do that again -- $20 worth of yeast adds up.

Chad

Yeast Starter Section of Palmer's "How to Brew"

Click to expand...

You can combine your two schools of thought slightly. For my last beer, a Dunkelweizen, I wanted to go really low on the bananas, so I wanted to pitch a ton of yeast. I built up a 3 L starter over the course of a week. Two days before brewday, I chilled. Then, as I'm draining the MLT, I collect a small amount (pint or so) wort, boil it separately on the stovetop, cool, and feed that to my starter to peak activity up again. Then, I'm still pitching a !@$% ton of yeast, with activity, but not a lot of spent liquid.

I've had plenty of luck pitching the whole starter in the 18 to 24 hour range. If Mr. Malty tells me I need more than 2 liters, I just pitch 2 liters and I don't worry about the rate. I recently made a Helles lager this way and it turned out great. I had better than 75% attenuation underpitching a lager with little to no extra aeration other than the fitting I have on the end of my syphon tube that splashes the wort a bit.

My take is to ignore Mr. Malty for this brew, make a 2 liter starter and call it a day.

I think I actually harvested some pacman from a Rogue Brutal Bitter. How much will it have to multiply in order to use it as a starter for a 5 gal 1.070 batch? Specifically, how many inches (in height) of yeast in a .5 gallon growler will be enough?

One thing to make sure of when using the calculator is make sure you have the date selected correctly. It makes viability assumptions based on the production date of the yeast. If you have the date set wrong it calculates the starter size based on very low % viable.