Funky saison questions????

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bastump218

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Want to brew a Saison and ferment out with a Saison ale yeast then rack to secondary and pitch a Brett or wild yeast strain and oak cubes....then when ready ads fruit and let sit for a while longer. Question is will this work......suggestions
 
Well, it will work, but what are you going for in the end beer? You have to describe what you want the finished beer to taste like and then we can give you feedback on the best process.
 
Ok that helps a little bit.
The Brett will not sour the beer, you will need to add lactic bacteria - Lacto or pedio. You could also do a sour mash or add acid malt. I would suggest that you look into techniques for making Berliner Weiss and then pitch a Saison yeast instead of a clean ale yeast.

The choice to add oak or fruit is just based on flavor. Oak helps with mouthfeel and complexity, but isn't really needed in Saisons (can easily over power the delicate flavors). And if you want to add fruit then wait until a month or two from when the beer is "finished". And make sure to taste the beer before adding fruit and see what will work the best with flavors already present.

You can add Brett, but that will just give you Brett flavors (barnyard, fruity, cherry) depending on strain and help to dry out the beer. Also depending on the gravity may require you to age for a while to allow the slow Brett to work through the remaining sugars, opposed to the just using a sour mash and Saison yeast which could be done in a week.

I like Brett Saisons, but they are not sour. They might have a light tartness, but the main characteristics are a very dry beer with peppery spices mixed with tropical/funky Brett type flavors, which seems different than what you want.
 
Thanks for the input I will defiantly be able to use some of your advice......with acid malt what percentage of the grist should it take up....will lacto bacteria eat up the acid malt sugars and make the beer sour
 
To get decent sourness from just acid malt it needs to be at least 10% of the grist. You'd prolly be better off doing a 15-25% sour mash and using that to sour the beer.
 
I have read so many different things on sour mashes I am confused by rewarding too much.....any suggestions on a good easy way to make a sour mash
 
There are so many different ways because people all have different systems. The main points of a sour mash:
Avoid Oxygen - #1 thing - Lacotbacillus does not need oxygen, but the nasty tasting ones do. So use plastic wrap or flush with CO2.
Keep Temperature between 100 - 120 - insulate or heat
Keep pH under 4.3 - use acid malt to adjust pH after you mash your grains

Or just make the beer regularly and add lacto from a vial (or build a starter with apple juice). Let the lacto get a head start and taste the beer daily, when it is to a level you want then pitch your Sacc. Make sure the Sacc is healthy (preferably at a full krausen in a starter) as it will need to deal with the low pH.
 
Almighty said:
Ok that helps a little bit.
The Brett will not sour the beer, you will need to add lactic bacteria - Lacto or pedio. You could also do a sour mash or add acid malt. I would suggest that you look into techniques for making Berliner Weiss and then pitch a Saison yeast instead of a clean ale yeast.

The choice to add oak or fruit is just based on flavor. Oak helps with mouthfeel and complexity, but isn't really needed in Saisons (can easily over power the delicate flavors). And if you want to add fruit then wait until a month or two from when the beer is "finished". And make sure to taste the beer before adding fruit and see what will work the best with flavors already present.

You can add Brett, but that will just give you Brett flavors (barnyard, fruity, cherry) depending on strain and help to dry out the beer. Also depending on the gravity may require you to age for a while to allow the slow Brett to work through the remaining sugars, opposed to the just using a sour mash and Saison yeast which could be done in a week.

I like Brett Saisons, but they are not sour. They might have a light tartness, but the main characteristics are a very dry beer with peppery spices mixed with tropical/funky Brett type flavors, which seems different than what you want.
Click to expand...

With all due respect I need to disagree here. I have done a few brett saisons ( check out my signature ). Brett will absolutly sour a beer to a certain degree. Brett does produce acetic acid as well as lactic acid though only acetic under areobic conditions. Now that being said it produces less than either lactobacilus or pediococcus but it will be evident. Sour is a relative term and the pedio or lacto may be objectionable to brett may not be. Brett also contributes to aroma and can be anything from cherry pie-smokey poop. If I were brewing a saison which I have and wanted the spicy saison flavors to be there but with more complexity in flavor I would absolutely use Brett b and c co pitched in primary not secondary and I would leave it alone for around 8-10 months , remember brett will eat the autolyzed yeast as a nutrient after the sugars are all consumed. After that time consider fruit as you may find the brett has produced enough fruityness. Pick up wild brews by Jeff Sparrow it will cover all this in detail . Good luck !!!
 
I was talking about using Brett in the context of the original post (secondary). And in my experience, I have not gotten much sourness from Brett when used in secondary of an already dry Saison. You can get some sourness from Brett when used in primary with plenty of oxygen, but as far as I have read it only produces acetic acid. And the level of sourness is also strain dependent. I have thought sometimes that the sourness I get from 100% Brett beers is more than just acetic acid, but everything I've read says that's all Brett can produce. Would you mind sharing where you have read about Brett producing lactic acid?
 
Almighty said:
I was talking about using Brett in the context of the original post (secondary). And in my experience, I have not gotten much sourness from Brett when used in secondary of an already dry Saison. You can get some sourness from Brett when used in primary with plenty of oxygen, but as far as I have read it only produces acetic acid. And the level of sourness is also strain dependent. I have thought sometimes that the sourness I get from 100% Brett beers is more than just acetic acid, but everything I've read says that's all Brett can produce. Would you mind sharing where you have read about Brett producing lactic acid?
Click to expand...

Sure no problem I hope that didn't come off to argumentative that was not my intention. I also need to brush up on my contextual skills I didn't realize you were talking about secondary only. My source is from wild brews on page # 108 the whole section on Brett is very thorough.As a side note the easiest way to differentiate between lactic and acetic acid flavor is that lactic is tart and acetic is vinegar like,you will only get the stronger acetic acid if there is a lot of oxygen available to the Brett.
 
Almighty said:
I was talking about using Brett in the context of the original post (secondary). And in my experience, I have not gotten much sourness from Brett when used in secondary of an already dry Saison. You can get some sourness from Brett when used in primary with plenty of oxygen, but as far as I have read it only produces acetic acid. And the level of sourness is also strain dependent. I have thought sometimes that the sourness I get from 100% Brett beers is more than just acetic acid, but everything I've read says that's all Brett can produce. Would you mind sharing where you have read about Brett producing lactic acid?
Click to expand...

It really depends on your TG. If there is sugar left, the beer will begin to develop a tart flavor (I've pitched Brett. L and Brett. B) at near TG 1.008 with saisons. I usually let them sit for over six months though, since I have a large backlog of sours (rough life I know).

I primarily pitch brett with a saison strain and have some very, very tart beers (at a year or so). I think it is a better way to go. I will taste monthly and pull it when I think it is at it's prime (usually about 3-4 months).
 
Aschecte - I didn't think you were argumentative at all and sorry if my message felt that way. (I guess that is the problem with the written word).
I'll have to look that up in Wild Brews. Here is the reference I remember reading from Mr. Brett himself, Chad Y at Crooked Stave - http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1281637266&pg=&tpg=1

And as far as the taste of each acid, "tart" refers to an amount of sourness to me not a flavor. And to me the flavors of each acid change considerably without amount. For example, acetic acid at low amounts gives a subtle "round" low amount of sourness, which helps boost fruity flavors, while large amounts of acetic acid create a very sharp feeling on the tongue like vinegar and boosts the mineral type flavors.

weremichael - What type of sourness do you think you have in your finished beers? And one thought that comes from your experience is that you might not have a pure culture of Brett, it is very easy to get some lactic bacteria mixed in with your culture (there were some reports White Labs did this originally with their Brett C).
 
Almighty said:
Aschecte - I didn't think you were argumentative at all and sorry if my message felt that way. (I guess that is the problem with the written word).
I'll have to look that up in Wild Brews. Here is the reference I remember reading from Mr. Brett himself, Chad Y at Crooked Stave - http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1281637266&pg=&tpg=1

And as far as the taste of each acid, "tart" refers to an amount of sourness to me not a flavor. And to me the flavors of each acid change considerably without amount. For example, acetic acid at low amounts gives a subtle "round" low amount of sourness, which helps boost fruity flavors, while large amounts of acetic acid create a very sharp feeling on the tongue like vinegar and boosts the mineral type flavors.

weremichael - What type of sourness do you think you have in your finished beers? And one thought that comes from your experience is that you might not have a pure culture of Brett, it is very easy to get some lactic bacteria mixed in with your culture (there were some reports White Labs did this originally with their Brett C).
Click to expand...

Fwiw your reference does say Brett produces both lactic and acetic acid. The 6th post down the one from chad y says that lactic acid is formed but is a low amount and a few sentences later does say acetic acid is produced in copious amounts but only in aerobic conditions. I promise Brett can and will produce a sour beer but you need to give it time. Another point to consider is that a glass Carboy with a standard bung and airlock will allow appx. 20cc of oxygen trough the bung stopper and airlock which does make it somewhat suseptible to aerobic activity. I don't claim to know everything chris y, Jeff sparrow, John Palmer, or raj apte know about this topic but the one thing I am sure of is my Brett saison is sour not lambic sour but sour none the less.
 
berebrando said:
Interesting note on the oxygen permeability of a carboy.
Click to expand...

I was actually pretty suprised myself..... if you go on better bottles website they give you a comparison between BB, glass, and plastic buckets..... with a glass carboy you get no actual permability from the glass but you do gett around 20 cc of oxygen from the stopper and airlock. BB has spead sheets and scientific data on the site if nayone wants to check it out.
 
I've used a variety of cultures: Lost Abbey farmhouse mix from White Labs which is very lactic after about a year. Brett. L. from Wyeast mixed with French saison yeast is very much like tart cherries (I have some that are almost two years old in the bottle). Crooked Stave brett has a kind of putrid/pineapple sharpness when fermented with a saison yeast after 6 months, and Brett. B. from Wyeast is the least acidic when fermented with a saison.
 
I've done it with very good results.

I make a saison, I shoot for something not bone-dry... no sugar and mash at 156 or so. I've used both 3711 and the regular saison yeast. Around this time I make a small starter with the dregs of mixed fermentation beers.
I ferment the saison out in primary and then add it to secondary with the dregs. 4 months later, bottle it. It's sour!
 

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