Pyment and cyser suggestions?? Will these recipes work?

I am planning on making a pyment and a cyser both at about 13-14% abv - I love wine and cider. Given that I/we love complex, big, strong, fruity, complex, dry red wines and want to make something similar, I have a tentative recipe for the pyment:

5.5 gallons total.
4.5 gallons newmans own concord grape juice (only vit. c added) plus more to top up to required volume.
7 lbs clover honey
9 lbs blueberries
4 lbs raisins to add sugars and body
Ferment to dry with Lalvin EC-1118.
Should work out to an OG of 1.100 and an abv of ~15%.

The cyser will look something like:
5.5 gallons total.
4.5-5 gallons cider - plus more to top up to required volume.
7 lbs clover honey
2 lbs bananas
1.5 lbs raisins
Ferment to dry with Lalvin 71b-1122 or D47. Stabilize and backsweeten with apple juice.

Should have an OG of 1.102 and produce ~14% abv.

I think that the bananas and raisins will add some complexity and extra body/mouthfeel to the cyser. Any suggestions at this point? Am I totally mad to be adding bananas to cyser?

Will the blueberries add complexity to the pyment. Oh, I want to take 2 gallons of the pyment and add spices (cinnamon, nutmeg, vanilla etc) to make hippocras.

I have 9 lbs frozen wild blueberries and 22.5 lbs clover honey in stock plus 4 gallons grape juice, so I have plenty of flexibility with the recipes. Will use costco apple cider, not juice from concentrate.

I would really appreciate some feedback on the above tentative recipes.

PS I posted older versions of these recipes on gotmead - but no real feedback -not anywhere as busy as HBT! I'm impatient to get started! LOL.

Many thanks!

The recipes look fine to me. While the ingredient portions look ok be sure to use sound fermentation management techniquies using Fermaid K and DAP at the appropriate times and provide plenty of oxygen during fermentaion.

Also keep in mind that many people don't like the "foxy" flavor and aroma (think Welch's grape jelly) of Concord grapes in a wine or mead. Personally, I think Concord juice makes a satisfactory quick mead, I'd rather use Alexander's concentrates in a Pinot Noir, Burgundy, Merlot, or something similar to get something akin to "big, strong, fruity, complex, dry red wines ".

+1 on the Alexander's concentrates for your pymet. Concord is not a bad wine juice but wine grapes will give you much closer to what you want.

I used some fresh pressed apple cider last year for a cyser. It is the best mead I have made. I used 2# honey per gallon of must in my cyser and let it finish dry. It has a nice body and great flavor despite using cheap honey. With a quality honey I think it will be even better.

Good luck

Craig

summersolstice said:

The recipes look fine to me. While the ingredient portions look ok be sure to use sound fermentation management techniquies using Fermaid K and DAP at the appropriate times and provide plenty of oxygen during fermentaion.

Also keep in mind that many people don't like the "foxy" flavor and aroma (think Welch's grape jelly) of Concord grapes in a wine or mead. Personally, I think Concord juice makes a satisfactory quick mead, I'd rather use Alexander's concentrates in a Pinot Noir, Burgundy, Merlot, or something similar to get something akin to "big, strong, fruity, complex, dry red wines ".

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Thanks for the quick response. I have a mead nearing completion of fermentation at the moment - tastes wonderful - upon which I visited the full rigor of staggered nutrient additions (1/3 fermaid K and 2/3 DAP). Punch cap down thrice daily and lots o' oxygen for the 1st half of the ferment.

I think I will get some Alexanders concentrate (Merlot) - I see you made a port-style wine/mead using some Burgundy concentrate. That should get it to where I want it.

The question now is - how many cans of concentrate? 2 I guess for 5.5 gallons?

CBBaron said:

+1 on the Alexander's concentrates for your pymet. Concord is not a bad wine juice but wine grapes will give you much closer to what you want.

I used some fresh pressed apple cider last year for a cyser. It is the best mead I have made. I used 2# honey per gallon of must in my cyser and let it finish dry. It has a nice body and great flavor despite using cheap honey. With a quality honey I think it will be even better.

Good luck

Craig

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Craig, thanks for the response. 10 lbs of honey in apple juice would give an OG of about 1.119 or 16%+ potential abv. Yikes. (This assumes that apple juice has a SG of 1.050).

Re the pyment - I think I'll give the concord grape juice a try plus I'll try the Alexanders concentrate in a second identical batch of pyment.

What yeast did you use? Do you recommend any in particular for retaining the apple flavors?

Cugel said:

Craig, thanks for the response. 10 lbs of honey in apple juice would give an OG of about 1.119 or 16%+ potential abv. Yikes. (This assumes that apple juice has a SG of 1.050).

Re the pyment - I think I'll give the concord grape juice a try plus I'll try the Alexanders concentrate in a second identical batch of pyment.

What yeast did you use? Do you recommend any in particular for retaining the apple flavors?

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I don't think my apple juice was quite that potent but i did not take an OG on the cyser so i'm not sure. Either way it didn't have much hot alcohol flavors so I guess I did something right. It probably helps my basement stays in the low 60's F.
I used EC1118 for the cyser. The apple flavors were noticable early but now they are a subtle background. I find I prefer that way. A strong apple flavor makes it taste too much like a jolly rancher to me.

From discussions on the Gotmead site RC212 was highly recommended for the pymet. I used 71B as its what I had at the time. This mead is still a little young to make a full judgment but I am enjoying it. I am finding that mead really starts to come into its own at about a year.

Craig

Cugel said:

The question now is - how many cans of concentrate? 2 I guess for 5.5 gallons?

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I typically use only one can but I rely on the fruit as my primary source of flavor. I typically use 3-4 pounds of fruit per gallon for a 5-gallon batch. Alternately, you can make a pyment with fruit notes using 2 cans of Alexander's and 1.5-2 pounds of fruit per gallon. My favorite combination is 3 lbs of blackberries per gallon, 64 ozs of Knudsen's black cherry juice, and a can of Alexander's burgundy for 5 gallons (oaked, of course).

summersolstice said:

I typically use only one can but I rely on the fruit as my primary source of flavor. I typically use 3-4 pounds of fruit per gallon for a 5-gallon batch. Alternately, you can make a pyment with fruit notes using 2 cans of Alexander's and 1.5-2 pounds of fruit per gallon. My favorite combination is 3 lbs of blackberries per gallon, 64 ozs of Knudsen's black cherry juice, and a can of Alexander's burgundy for 5 gallons (oaked, of course).

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Those proportions look good. I've been looking for cherry juice in the DC area and can only find it at trader joes for about $20/gallon - $5/quart IIRC.

Do you think that the 9lbs of wild blueberries will make itself noticed in 5 gallons? Should I make a separate melomel with 15 lbs blueberries or so?

Thanks

Cugel said:

Do you think that the 9lbs of wild blueberries will make itself noticed in 5 gallons? Should I make a separate melomel with 15 lbs blueberries or so?

Thanks

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If you have a source for Knudsen's juices, they're very good but expensive too. The 9 pounds of blueberries are definitely enough to supplement a grape wine or mead but a little thin to rely upon for your primary flavor in a 5-gallon batch. You can get another six pounds of frozen blueberries at Wal Mart if you're looking to make a blueberry melomel, or one supplemented with grape juice, or you can cut the recipe to three gallons, assuming you have a 3-gallon carboy or three 1-gallon carboys and have a relatively full bodied blueberry mead.

Thanks for all the replies.

I will go ahead and make a simple cyser per Craig's suggestion using 5 gallons high quality apple juice, 10 lbs honey plus nutrients. K.I.S.S.

I will then go ahead and make a concord pyment using (the infamous) Joe Mattoli's concord pyment recipe (Got Mead - Mead (honeywine) making, mead drinking, mead recipes - Joe's Grape Mead / Pyment -- J.M.).

That would be 3 gallons concord graoe juice, 12 lbs honey, water to top up to 6 gallons. Lalvin EC-111 plus nutrients.

Finally I will use the wild blueberries in a wine using a Jack Keller recipe (times 6):Winemaking: Recipes (Continued)

Thanks again for all the feedback! Much appreciated.