Berliner Weiss, many ways

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weirdboy said:
I did a sour mash over this past weekend. It smelled bad after an overnight ~105F rest, and after ~2 days of that it smelled truly horrific. There were people walking by across the street holding their noses when I did the boil. Taste was fine, though. Nice level of lactic acid in there, I thought. I split roughly 4:3 into two fermenters. I had originally wanted to pitch with regular ol' saccharomyces, but then I got to thinking about how I would like a bit more complexity in there, so I pitched one with WLP665 (Sour Mix 1) and the other I dumped the dregs from a bottles of Russian River Supplication and Fantome Saison Printemps. So, maybe it won't be quite like a Berliner Weiss.

Also, due to the smell, my original plan of keeping them in the house to stay warm sort of fell through, because I'd like to stay married. So, they've been in the garage in the 60's instead.


So I guess that puts me in 5b.
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That looks nice! I decided to go with Brettanomyces instead of Saccharomyces to add complexity, after I read a lot about Brett primary fermentation (that can be different to a secondary brett fermentation).

I just pitch a WLP665 into a 1060 50/50 wheat/Pilsen wort. But I've been told that you have to wait 12-18 months before even thinking to rack it off to secondary, because every bacteria/yeast have to wait and take its turn.
 
Tiroux said:
That looks nice! I decided to go with Brettanomyces instead of Saccharomyces to add complexity, after I read a lot about Brett primary fermentation (that can be different to a secondary brett fermentation).

I just pitch a WLP665 into a 1060 50/50 wheat/Pilsen wort. But I've been told that you have to wait 12-18 months before even thinking to rack it off to secondary, because every bacteria/yeast have to wait and take its turn.
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My club made a sour Belgian quad that was aged in a cabernet barrel a couple of years ago. We brewed it somewhere around this time of year I think, let it ferment with a clean sacc strain before dumping everyone's individual batches (some people had trouble and their stalled around 1.030ish) into the barrel and pitching souring stuff. One of the things we pitched was a 2L starter made with WLP665, along with some dregs from a few bottles of Consecration, and maybe something else I cannot remember. After about 3-4 months, you could get a tart aroma, but not much tartness in the actual beer. After 6-8 months it had developed a nice tartness that I would describe as primarily lactic, and a reasonable level of complexity. After another 4-6 months (maybe 10-12 months total) it had developed into a richly complex flavor and aroma. We have been pulling the occasional keg or two from it and topping off with fresh batches of wort (sometimes fermented with sacc, sometimes not) since around the 6 month mark. It has done very well in competition and won a gold medal in category 16 in the last comp we submitted it to, which had over 40 entries in that category.
 
weirdboy said:
My club made a sour Belgian quad that was aged in a cabernet barrel a couple of years ago. We brewed it somewhere around this time of year I think, let it ferment with a clean sacc strain before dumping everyone's individual batches (some people had trouble and their stalled around 1.030ish) into the barrel and pitching souring stuff. One of the things we pitched was a 2L starter made with WLP665, along with some dregs from a few bottles of Consecration, and maybe something else I cannot remember. After about 3-4 months, you could get a tart aroma, but not much tartness in the actual beer. After 6-8 months it had developed a nice tartness that I would describe as primarily lactic, and a reasonable level of complexity. After another 4-6 months (maybe 10-12 months total) it had developed into a richly complex flavor and aroma. We have been pulling the occasional keg or two from it and topping off with fresh batches of wort (sometimes fermented with sacc, sometimes not) since around the 6 month mark. It has done very well in competition and won a gold medal in category 16 in the last comp we submitted it to, which had over 40 entries in that category.
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That confirms what I said.. and it's great news! I pitched it as a primary fermentation, so we'll see what is gonna do. Now afters fews days, it's bubbling like crazy, I had to install a blowoff tube in the middle of the night. I think it's the Sacch attacking the very fermentable wort.
 
Tiroux said:
Well, 7% Acid malt seems to be a normal amount to balance pH to a desirable range. So, unless you are starting with a already acidic water, it wouldn't give any sour/acidic beer. And Saccharomyces doesn't like low pH environment. It more seems like a Light Weizen / German Wheat Ale, than a Berliner Weisse.

My guess would be a nice smooth and light beer, but nothing near a sour or acidulated beer. I'm still really interested to hear about the results. Please let us know!
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According to the water primer, 2-3% is for PH ballance, and you should be able to taste 7% I would think you'd need more for a soured beer, though.
 
Coff said:
A little while back a friend and I split a Berliner and fermented it 2 different ways. He pitched a vial of WLP Lacto for 48 hrs warm then Sacc, I tossed a handful of Pilsner malt into primary and kept it warm for 48 hours then picthed sacc.

His has no sourness whatsoever, just turned out strange. Mine is sharply acidic, almost too sour, at one point it had an aroma that was a little off putting. So I pitched a little bit of Brett Trois and it cleaned up the aroma brilliantly. Its a VERY sour berliner weisse but is pretty refreshing. Grain to glass ~4 months.

Next time I will do a Lacto start from grains and not throw the grains into primary.
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i made a starter with a cup of crushed grains and 100 degree water. i let it sit with a heating pad for a week and it had the sour apple smell. when i pitched it into my primary, i used a strainer and did not really get any of the yeast cake separated from the grains into the carboy, only the liquid from the starter. it did not take off in 48 hours so i added some wyeast lacto. my main question here is how do you get the yeast cake into the carboy without getting any grain in? i was told not to get any grains in when i pitched and i also didn't stir the mason jar. i think i should have to stir up the yeast on the bottom.
 
Followed 1C for mine. Fermentation at 70 for 3 months and 2 weeks...this was TOO long. It's too sour to drink more than a glass at a time. That lacto really took off.
 
adamjackson said:
Followed 1C for mine. Fermentation at 70 for 3 months and 2 weeks...this was TOO long. It's too sour to drink more than a glass at a time. That lacto really took off.
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Serve it with a little drop of raspberry syrup in the glass maube :mug:
 
adamjackson said:
last 6 months, secondary received rhubarb and strawberry additions so maybe they're too blame for this intense sour bomb?
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Oh, maybe.. If lacto was dominant, it ate the fruits sugars, I guess. Or the fruits brang another source of contamination. If your abv was low, it might be possible.
 
I just brewed a Berliner Weisse using method 2a:
2a - Normal mash + single fermentation, but pitching lactobacillus few days before pitching saccharomyces

My experience so far:
5 Gallons
Grain Bill: 3.5lbs Pilsner, 3.5lbs Wheat OG=1.036
~5 IBUs from Tinseth equation: 1oz Tettnang @ 7.5mins
(Was going to do a 15min boil, but scared of DMS concerns others had posted. Went with a 45min boil.)

I made about a 1L lacto starter (Wyeast 5335). After cooling the boiled wort to 100F, I pitched the entire starter. The fermenter was placed in plastic bin of water. The water in the bin was maintained at about 90F with a submersible aquarium heater. After about 30 hours, I started to see regular airlock activity. I took a small sample this morning (40 hours after pitching). It was slightly sour. Tasted like unfermented wort with a mild tartness. I will continue to sample until it reaches desired sourness. Probably another day or two based on the reports I have read from others using this method.

Last night, I made a 1L yeast starter (WLP 011-European Ale). My plan is to cool the beer down to 65 or so once the lacto has sufficiently soured it, and then I will pitch the yeast.
 
I just did a quicky Berlinner Weiss last weekend with Aciduated Malt. One hour mash for the normal grains, then an additional one hour mash with aciduated malt at 7% of the grist.

2 liter starter with German Ale yeast.

This process was recommended to me by a pro brewer who makes a very good Berlinner Weiss that he turns around in 2 weeks. He gave me the process, but wouldn't give me the proportions, so I researched a little and came up with some educated guesses. I have no idea how it's going to turn out, but the lactic acid should definitely tart the beer. I'm going to rack onto raspberries on Friday.
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I racked my Berliner Weiss yesterday, and carbed and cooled a little bit with a carb cap to taste how much sour/tart taste I got using the method above.

Although it certainly wasn't anything like an aged Berlinner Weiss with bugs or even a sour mash, I did get a very distinct tart aftertaste. I don't think I would use this method to create just a plain Berliner Weiss to drink as-is, but I also racked mine onto raspberry puree last night, and think this is going to make a great base tart beer that will take fruit additions very well.

For a two week turnaround for the base tart weiss, I think mine turned out pretty well. I'll report back after the raspberries ferment out in another week or two.
 
brewed up my 1st attempt at a Berliner Weiße this weekend with the 5a Sour Mash technique

4# Pils
4# Ger Wheat Malt

OG was 1.043 so a bit high for the style but still should be an easy drinker

mashed on Thurs night and cooled to 115° then added 1/2# of uncrushed Acid Malt, purged with CO2 and sealed up my 10gal cooler
I only needed to add boiling water twice, thankfully if I had to open it up much more SWMBO would have nixed the idea of brewing that style again. smell wasn't as bad as I was expecting but still pretty gnarly, thankfully only smelled when opened up.

I ended up doing a 60min boil because of DMS concerns and then aerated and pitched some US-05. the temps were a bit lower after chilling and I haven't seen activity yet but hoping it's going strong today when I get home from work.

the prepitch wort had a nice tartness to it - really looking forward to this one.
 
1C - No Boil - No Chill and fermented at room temp for 4 months. OG was 1.032

To explain the No Chill part: I go straight from the mash tun at mash temps into the fermenter. Then bring the carboy inside with sanitized foil over the opening and let is cool to room temp for 24 hours and then pitch the Yeast.

The beer was light, tart and nearly lemony... Great summer beer!

I Currently have 2 more batches going around 5 months now with a little higher gravity 1.042 and in 1 batch I added 1 lb of cherries. No results on those yet.
 
Something to add: I've found that when using 5a, I like a longer souring at lower temperatures as opposed to a quick sour at ~110F. I don't get the garbage/creamed corn flavors that carry over to the beer when I soured for 5-6 days at 75F.
 
GatorBeer said:
Something to add: I've found that when using 5a, I like a longer souring at lower temperatures as opposed to a quick sour at ~110F. I don't get the garbage/creamed corn flavors that carry over to the beer when I soured for 5-6 days at 75F.
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That is a very interesting imput. My room temp is at 75F so it would be really great. I will use Lacto. Delbruckii for me berliner weisse, but I might try a sour mash for some other beer. Thanks!
 
GatorBeer said:
Something to add: I've found that when using 5a, I like a longer souring at lower temperatures as opposed to a quick sour at ~110F. I don't get the garbage/creamed corn flavors that carry over to the beer when I soured for 5-6 days at 75F.
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how long did you boil for after the sour mash?
 
15 minute boil, added barely any hops. Pitched a starter built from dregs of Sierra Nevada/Russian River BRUX. (This is mainly sacch, barely any Brett)

I also racked a gallon onto pineapple chunks and it's really quite delicious.
 
2a - 50% wheat 50% six row, 8 IBUs hops, 15 min boil.

Pitched Lacto and 3 days later US05. Took 9 months to get the level of sourness I was looking for, but the taste is perfect. Very bright and lemony.
 
GatorBeer said:
15 minute boil, added barely any hops. Pitched a starter built from dregs of Sierra Nevada/Russian River BRUX. (This is mainly sacch, barely any Brett)

I also racked a gallon onto pineapple chunks and it's really quite delicious.
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i may try the longer/lowertemp mash next time to compare but I didn't pick up any carryover foulness post 60min boil.

how did the sourness compare?
 
Anyone ever considered or tried adding Orange or Lemon peel in the boil for a Berliner Weisse?

By the way, my lacto and brett starters are on the go! This little beer is gonna be brewed on sunday!
 
If i wanted to make the sourest beer of them all, what are some of your recommendations? Time? Patience?
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Bugs, time, and patience. The best homebrew sours that I've made are those with a mix of Brett and Lacto that are aged for about 12-18 months.
 
aknox said:
If i wanted to make the sourest beer of them all, what are some of your recommendations? Time? Patience?
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If you just want straight sourness, I threw a handful of raw grain into 5 gallons of berliner wort, kept it at 110F for 4 days and when I bottled/carbed it, it was like a warhead. Mouth puckeringly sour. Not in a good way, it was too sour.
 
GatorBeer said:
If you just want straight sourness, I threw a handful of raw grain into 5 gallons of berliner wort, kept it at 110F for 4 days and when I bottled/carbed it, it was like a warhead. Mouth puckeringly sour. Not in a good way, it was too sour.
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Yeah, you really should be tasting your sour mash as it progresses to make sure that it doesnt get too sour, every 8 hours or so.
 
So many options. i have to bottle my Berliner that is in the carboy this weekend so i can throw a handful of grain in my next batch with some bug County!
 
Tiroux said:
Anyone ever considered or tried adding Orange or Lemon peel in the boil for a Berliner Weisse?

By the way, my lacto and brett starters are on the go! This little beer is gonna be brewed on sunday!
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A brewery here in Boston does an awesome Berliner Weisse with lemongrass. It's the perfect summer beer.
 
Okay guys! I have a problem with my brett starter (as you might have seen in my thread about that), so I'm not sure if I'm going for Brett or Sacch yet.

Brew day is on Sundar.

I'm considering adding a little bit of lemon and lime zest (yellow and green lemon, not shure the right terms in english) at the end of the boil. Not sure yet, I'll see!
 
terrapinj said:
brewed up my 1st attempt at a Berliner Weiße this weekend with the 5a Sour Mash technique

4# Pils
4# Ger Wheat Malt

OG was 1.043 so a bit high for the style but still should be an easy drinker

mashed on Thurs night and cooled to 115° then added 1/2# of uncrushed Acid Malt, purged with CO2 and sealed up my 10gal cooler
I only needed to add boiling water twice, thankfully if I had to open it up much more SWMBO would have nixed the idea of brewing that style again. smell wasn't as bad as I was expecting but still pretty gnarly, thankfully only smelled when opened up.

I ended up doing a 60min boil because of DMS concerns and then aerated and pitched some US-05. the temps were a bit lower after chilling and I haven't seen activity yet but hoping it's going strong today when I get home from work.

the prepitch wort had a nice tartness to it - really looking forward to this one.
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kegged this up last night

really nice easy drinker - finished at 1.005 so 5%, a bit above style but still very smooth and refreshing

i would have liked some more tartness/sourness but I only tasted a 60° uncarbed hydro sample

next time I'll try letting the sour mash go for another 12+ hours and will split the batch after primary to add some dried fruit (maybe peaches or cherries) and try dry hopping the other half with some simcoe or citra
 
I've brewed over 15 batches of Berliner Weisse (my wife requires it to be on top the entire summer) with a variety of methods and I am now convinced that my preferred method is equal parts pils/wheat; crystal hops (3.5 IBUs); and an OG of 1.037. I sour mash for 48 hours (hit heavily with CO2), boil for 15 minutes with the hops. I'll ferment with any clean ale strain (typically I'll use Pacman, San Diego Super Strain, or Chico) AND some brett (I've used Crooked Staves strain, Brett B, and Brett. L). I can keg within a month and enjoy or I can let it sit and get funkier.
 
weremichael said:
I've brewed over 15 batches of Berliner Weisse (my wife requires it to be on top the entire summer) with a variety of methods and I am now convinced that my preferred method is equal parts pils/wheat; crystal hops (3.5 IBUs); and an OG of 1.037. I sour mash for 48 hours (hit heavily with CO2), boil for 15 minutes with the hops. I'll ferment with any clean ale strain (typically I'll use Pacman, San Diego Super Strain, or Chico) AND some brett (I've used Crooked Staves strain, Brett B, and Brett. L). I can keg within a month and enjoy or I can let it sit and get funkier.
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You mean symbiotic fermentation? Both sacch and Brett at the same time?
 
Tiroux said:
You mean symbiotic fermentation? Both sacch and Brett at the same time?
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I don't know if it's truly symbiotic, but yeah I will pitch both sacch and brett at the same time into the wort.

I have a variety of brett. strains that I keep alive in my basement (currently only three). I feed them periodically and sample them before pitching to make sure they haven't developed any new undesirable flavors. I'm assuming there is some serious mutation going on in those gallon jugs.

Typically, I will make a healthy starter of the sacch strain and pitch a smaller amount of the brett strain. I assume that I am underpitching the brett, but I still get some brett flavor within a month and it will be funky after about three months (or seriously sour anytime after that). I believe that is a result of brett being able to thrive in an acidic environment better than sacch.

As a side note, don't use flaked wheat in a sour mash. It will turn into a mucus like consistency and be extremely hazy.
 
Ok thanks! Anyways, i think that I'll develop on the separated fermentation and use a controled lactobacillus strain. I find it simplier for me.

Just to make sure i understand, you keep a jug of starter, and when you need it, you take a part of it? And for ferding, you decant, dump the liquid and add new wort?

I'm thinking to wash the cakes after fermentation and begin a constant culture afterwise.

(80 hot peppers plants un the greenhouse, i'll need plenty of lacti for the fermented sauces!!!)
 
Tiroux said:
Just to make sure i understand, you keep a jug of starter, and when you need it, you take a part of it? And for ferding, you decant, dump the liquid and add new wort?
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Absolutely, that is my methodology. I taste the decanted liquid to see if it has the properties I'm going after. I've had Brett. L going for over a year with use every few months. My brewing guild stole the entire culture for a chai coconut porter, so I have to restart a lambicus strain.

I've never tried keeping lacto around. I have made starters with apple juice with great success (Thanks to a nice conversation with Vinnie Cilurzo). I imagine that an apple juice starter could keep a variety of acid loving bugs alive for quite a while. Might have to try that sometime soon.
 
I just put a 5 gallon batch of the 5b version into the carboy this morning.

Sunday afternoon I mashed 3 lbs of Pilsner, 3 lbs of wheat malt, and 1/2 lb of acidulated malt at 149º for one hour. I then added cold water to bring it down to about 110º before pitching a few handfuls of unmilled Pilsner grain to the mash. I turned the CO2 nozzle onto it for a few seconds then arranged a layer of plastic wrap over the grain being sure to push it all the way out to the edges while also pushing out any air bubbles. I hit it with another few seconds of CO2 and capped it off with the very tight lid.

I got up this morning and heated some sparge water before awakening the slumbering beast from its chambers. First impression before sparge was very tart and quite funky. The nose was fairly pungent with a sour barnyard thing going on. Not completely unpleasant but close. After sparge I tasted again and found that the wort was still fairly tart but now was considerably more delicate and light. The aroma was also diluted as well.

I fought with wind, driving rain, and a freezing propane tank so it took a little while to get up to a boil. Once I was up to a boil I let it boil about 10 minutes and tossed in an oz of old German hallertau hops that I found in the back of the freezer for 5 additional minutes. One of the issues with having 30lbs of hops in the freezer is sometimes they go a bit missing. These were several years old and while still sealed in the original package and stored in a freezer they were a bit cheesy if you will. Should add a little character to the batch.

After the 15 minute boil I cut the, flame started the recirculation water, and ran it into the carboy at about 70 degrees. 5 gallons of 1.032 wort with a pitch of S-05. This one should be ready pretty quick and if it turns out well I will probably split the batch and put half on raspberries after primary.
 
I did mine yesterday as well.

4 lb wheat malt
4 lb pils malt

Mash it at 148-149 for about an hour, sparge quickly then boiled for 30-40m without any hops.

I then pitch a 1.5 L starter of lactobacillus delbrueckii in 2.75 gallons of wort and a 1.5L starter of Brett. C in another 2.75 gallons.

This morning, krausen and intense bubbling in both. In tow weeks I blend, then bottle 2 weeks after that.
 

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