More than 1 vial for starter?

Howdy,

Playing with the Mr. Malty yeast calculator sometimes gives the recommendation for more than 1 vial of liquid yeast for a starter. Other then decreasing the time to maximum number of cells, is there another good reason for this? Why not 1 vial and more time for cell propagation?

10 gal batch? OG > 1.070?

Strangelove said:

Howdy,

Playing with the Mr. Malty yeast calculator sometimes gives the recommendation for more than 1 vial of liquid yeast for a starter. Other then decreasing the time to maximum number of cells, is there another good reason for this? Why not 1 vial and more time for cell propagation?

Click to expand...

It takes more than more time to propagate more cells. It takes more sugar. At some point, you just get to where starter size is ridiculous (at least in my opinion), or it requires multiple steps, for the level of reproduction you need with only one vial. Not knocking those as options if you want to go with them.

hopsalot said:

10 gal batch? OG > 1.070?

Click to expand...

It's a barleywine, 6 gallons, OG 1.109. Mr Malty says 1.84 L starter (stirrer) with 2 vials.

My solution is to brew a nice pale ale with the same yeast and then pitch onto the yeast cake. But my real question is, why can't I do the 1.84L starter and just wait a bit longer? Mr Malty says 1 vial = 4.55 liter starter.

Strangelove said:

But my real question is, why can't I do the 1.84L starter and just wait a bit longer?

Click to expand...

if I give you a hamburger, are you gonna grow more if I leave you for a week with the burger versus if i leave you for a day with the burger?

discnjh said:

if I give you a hamburger, are you gonna grow more if I leave you for a week with the burger versus if i leave you for a day with the burger?

Click to expand...

What the hell are y'all doing with your burgers down there in LA?:fro:

If a 2L starter will support x number of cells, and if we agree that each vial contains < 1/2x, and if we further agree that the cells will reproduce until the conditions no longer allow it, why will one vial not reproduce until it reaches the point where it can't, thus equalling the same number of cells, just more generations of them?

You can do a step starter. See: http://www.yeastcalc.com/

I am presently doing a step starter from 10ml of frozen yeast. I did two .25l steps a .5l step and have a final 1.5l step going for brew-day on Friday.

This takes quite a while but conceivably I could do 256 brews from a vial ,and not go past 4 generations, by washing yeast then making 4 new vials to freeze from each batch.

Strangelove said:

What the hell are y'all doing with your burgers down there in LA?:fro:

If a 2L starter will support x number of cells, and if we agree that each vial contains < 1/2x, and if we further agree that the cells will reproduce until the conditions no longer allow it, why will one vial not reproduce until it reaches the point where it can't, thus equalling the same number of cells, just more generations of them?

Click to expand...

because the amount of food is part of what limits their growth. they don't very to just keep growing if the food isn't there to support the growth.

Say a starter of 2l supports the creation of 100 billion new cells. Then if you pitch 100 billion, you end up with 200 billion. If you pitch 200 bolin, you end up with 300 million. The math isn't that simple, but the general concept is applicable.

EDIT: TO (maybe) clarify a little.... you need to look at it as the starter will support a certain amount of GROWTH, not a certain amount of total cells. Again, this is a simplification, but conceptually valid within normal ranges of starter pitch rates.

It has to do with how many viable cells there are to start with, and how much food and oxygen there is to reproduce. The fixed part of the equation is the cells to start and the food (assuming you start with the recommended gravity in the range of 1.030-1.040 on the starter) Remember also that each time a cell buds off it requires more nutrients to replenish itself. So a greater number of cells to begin with, will be able to healthily reproduce into a larger colony than a smaller number of cells that have to bud more often.

If you jack the slider all the way up on the calculator you will see that it can be done with one vial, but then requires 4.49L of starter. You could also make the starter in multiple steps off one vial, which would give you a healthier colony.

If you are looking for an in depth scientific answer then you might want to read Jamil Zainasheff and Chris Whites book on yeast, Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation

Strangelove said:

What the hell are y'all doing with your burgers down there in LA?:fro:

If a 2L starter will support x number of cells, and if we agree that each vial contains < 1/2x, and if we further agree that the cells will reproduce until the conditions no longer allow it, why will one vial not reproduce until it reaches the point where it can't, thus equalling the same number of cells, just more generations of them?

Click to expand...

Um, did you read what discnjh wrote? MrMalty's calculator is telling you that, roughly, the maximum amount of cells you'll get from a 2 liter starter with one vial isn't going to be enough to do an ideal fermentation of your barleywine. The sugar will run out, so past a certain amount of time (roughly 24 hours I think) you're not getting anymore growth.

afr0byte said:

Um, did you read what discnjh wrote? MrMalty's calculator is telling you that, roughly, the maximum amount of cells you'll get from a 2 liter starter with one vial isn't going to be enough to do an ideal fermentation of your barleywine. The sugar will run out, so past a certain amount of time (roughly 24 hours I think) you're not getting anymore growth.

Click to expand...

Um, yes, I did. And I know what Mr Malty says, I was hoping someone could tell me why. I seriously doubt that yeast growth and sugar utilization is a function of time alone. It's probably a function of initial cells, food, time, temperature, volume, pH, etc. I guess if I don't want to take it on faith I'll read the book.

Strangelove said:

Um, yes, I did. And I know what Mr Malty says, I was hoping someone could tell me why. I seriously doubt that yeast growth and sugar utilization is a function of time alone. It's probably a function of initial cells, food, time, temperature, volume, pH, etc. I guess if I don't want to take it on faith I'll read the book.

Click to expand...

Well, I don't see how reading the book is any less of a leap of faith. I suppose they might have more references. If you really want to prove it to yourself why don't you get a microscope and a hemocytomer, etc?

Wow, argumentative much?

I would just step your starter. 1L, crash/decant, 2L. Use that yeast stepping calculator and you should be golden.

Mr. Malty also called for a two vile starter on my last lager. The yeast was one month past expiry date. It blew the lid off my primary and i could not close it for eight hours.

Sorry for the large image.

Strangelove said:

Um, yes, I did. And I know what Mr Malty says, I was hoping someone could tell me why. I seriously doubt that yeast growth and sugar utilization is a function of time alone. It's probably a function of initial cells, food, time, temperature, volume, pH, etc. I guess if I don't want to take it on faith I'll read the book.

Click to expand...

I really feel like I've explained why. What am I missing as far as explaining it? Cell growth is limited by food and nutrients. That's why the smaller starting population can't just "go a few more generations" and catch up.

and yes, yeast is a great book.

Strangelove said:

Wow, argumentative much?

Click to expand...

Well, this is a discussion forum. I could have phrased things a bit better, but realistically the only way to prove it to yourself without relying on faith is to do the experiment. Obviously you'll get more yeast if you optimize the conditions for yeast growth. That's why people use stir plates. Also, yeast like a pH around 5 to start (They lower the pH as they ferment the wort, though.). However, you asked why you couldn't just let the starter go longer to produce more cells. We answered you.

Mellow52 said:

Mr. Malty also called for a two vile starter on my last lager. The yeast was one month past expiry date. It blew the lid off my primary and i could not close it for eight hours.

Sorry for the large image.

Click to expand...

Did you start the fermentation warm or something? Normally lagers don't have much krausen at normal lager fermentation temps.

Some data from Yeast.

Innoculation rate of 50 million cells/mL, which is one vial into 2 liters:
Starting cell count - 100 billion
Growth - 105 billion
Final cell count - 205 billion

Innoculation rate of 100 million cells/mL, which is two vials into 2 liters:
Starting cell count - 200 billion
Growth - 104 billion
Final cell count - 304 billion

When you get outside the range of about 25 million cells/mL to 125 million cells/mL, you start seeing significant changes in the amount of growth you get out of a certain volume of starter. But within that range, you are going to get very close to the same amount of GROWTH regardless of total yeast pitched.

discnjh said:

It takes more than more time to propagate more cells. It takes more sugar.

Click to expand...

discnjh said:

I really feel like I've explained why. What am I missing as far as explaining it?

Click to expand...

I see what you're saying. Really. Maybe I'm just being dense, but if we all make our starters the same, the amount of CHO/L is the same whether we add 1 vial or 2. So if 1 vial will not produce the adequate number of cells for that amount of sugar, Jamil must be saying that making a starter with 1 vial and then adding the second vial directly to the wort would be essentially the same? There's an equation here, I'm just not seeing it.

Strangelove said:

So if 1 vial will not produce the adequate number of cells for that amount of sugar, Jamil must be saying that making a starter with 1 vial and then adding the second vial directly to the wort would be essentially the same? There's an equation here, I'm just not seeing it.

Click to expand...

If you look at those numbers from the Yeast book, what you said is basically true. You could direct pitch one of the vials and pitch the yeast from the 2 liter starter made with one vial.

Strangelove said:

There's an equation here, I'm just not seeing it.

Click to expand...

Here is the equation:

YI + G(S) = YF
Where:

YI is initial yeast population
G(S) is the number of cells grown, expressed as a function only of sugar available for energy and therefore growth (a simplification, but accurate enough within the ranges we normally talk about for starters)
YF is final yeast population

afr0byte said:

Did you start the fermentation warm or something? Normally lagers don't have much krausen at normal lager fermentation temps.

Click to expand...

I pitched at about 60F. My starter was 5 days old. 2 days at room temp and 3 days in fridge then back to room temp and pitch.

Mellow52 said:

I pitched at about 60F. My starter was 5 days old. 2 days at room temp and 3 days in fridge then back to room temp and pitch.

Click to expand...

The 60F pitching temperature would explain it.

afr0byte said:

The 60F pitching temperature would explain it.

Click to expand...

not to sure about that pal

hopsalot said:

not to sure about that pal

Click to expand...

A lager yeast at 60 degrees is quite warm.

afr0byte said:

The 60F pitching temperature would explain it.

Click to expand...

What do you recommend for pitching temps?

Mellow52 said:

What do you recommend for pitching temps?

Click to expand...

I'd recommend at or below fermentation temperatures....so around 50 degrees. Keep in mind that you won't be able to as easily get by with a lower pitching rate (I'm not saying you necessarily didn't pitch enough yeast, however.).

afr0byte said:

I'd recommend at or below fermentation temperatures....so around 50 degrees. Keep in mind that you won't be able to as easily get by with a lower pitching rate (I'm not saying you necessarily didn't pitch enough yeast, however.).

Click to expand...

after retracting my last statement, afr0byte is spot on, roughly want to ferment around 10 degrees higher than you are going to lager

Maybe I am hijacking and if I am, I am sorry, but can you not use a higher gravity starter, which would give the yeasties more food? Or does this result in too great of alcohol content during culturing, thus lowering efficiency?

EG: I looked at the yeast calculator that was mentioned earlier in here, and I have a batch coming this weekend that I am making a starter for, I am expecting an OG of around 1.1. Perhaps I should just get two vials to simplify things.

dbhokie said:

Maybe I am hijacking and if I am, I am sorry, but can you not use a higher gravity starter, which would give the yeasties more food? Or does this result in too great of alcohol content during culturing, thus lowering efficiency?

Click to expand...

It depends on how much higher gravity you're taking, but a high level answer: in addition to the higher stress due to a higher alcohol content, you could also run into oxygen limitations.

A key thing to remember is a proper starter does two things: increase cell count AND ensure yeast health. High gravity starters may accomplish the first but are likely to hamper the second.

dbhokie said:

Maybe I am hijacking and if I am, I am sorry, but can you not use a higher gravity starter, which would give the yeasties more food? Or does this result in too great of alcohol content during culturing, thus lowering efficiency?

EG: I looked at the yeast calculator that was mentioned earlier in here, and I have a batch coming this weekend that I am making a starter for, I am expecting an OG of around 1.1. Perhaps I should just get two vials to simplify things.

Click to expand...

The higher OG starter might produce more yeast (I don't know if that's true in a starter, though.), but it will also put more stress on the yeast, making them less viable than the yeast from a lower OG starter.

Thanks guys, I felt like it kind of fit in with the OP question and trending discussion. I am going to try and do a 2L step starter.