Electric BrewGaLoo 2.0 Automated Brutus 20 8-Valve System

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Squeeky

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Joined
Sep 29, 2005
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Location
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Some of you may have seen my thread in electric brewing but this forum seems more fitting. After months of debating on the system design I think I finally have it. (Fingers Crossed)

I moved from an electric three vessel HERMS, to what will be a two vessel electric automated HERMS. I wanted to reduce the size of the brewery but continue to be able to do 12 gallon batches or 8 gallon big beers. I plan on using my current keggles but rebuilding them once the design is complete. I will be based off the Brewtroller 3.3, which was picked due to the volume sensors and 1-wire temp sensors. After watching the youtube videos operation of the system doesn't seem to be an issue.

I had been struggling with design setup as each time I made a diagram I would find an issue. I was also not looking to clone a current design out there. I was amazed by rebab25's single pump b20, but after talking with him realized it was more trouble then it was worth. Below is my final valve diagram, if you see anything wrong please point it out. DO NOT be shy, as I plan on diagramming out and only buying the parts I need.

Not shown are a few check valves just to avoid any flow back.

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parts1.jpg
 
Over 80 views and no comments :(

Anyone want to just chime in and say that this layout will work. Then I can start gathering parts.
 
A minimal valve and pump design would need 5 valves in the wort path, and 2 in the water for auto fill and chill. You can get by with one pump, 2 float switches to alternate sparge and flow to BK for a minimalist control scheme with a Brutus 20 setup. If you use a tube type CFC chiller in series with the HERMS coil then the 2 valves for water control could automate fill and chill without plumbing or hose changes. The CFC could be sterilized by pumping boiling wort to bring it up to temp, then starting cooling water flow.
The configuration would be like the letter "H" on its side, pump and HERMS coil in the middle , and valves in horizontal arms controlling flow to and from the respective kettles. The fifth valve would be tee'd in above the pump to direct wort to the fermenter after cooling.
 
As much as I appreciate the comment, a picture is worth a thousand words. If I'm understanding you correctly I can eliminate a switch by adding two float valves? I'm going to be using the pressure sensor of brewtroller for volume readings, so I will likely avoid float valves.

Would it be too much to ask you to draw out what your saying? I think for simplistic reasons I will stick with two pumps, but if you have a diagram that spells things out I'd like to see it :)
 
It will have to be monday before I can CAD up the diagram at work, sorry. Level measurement with the bubble tube sensors is a better method than float switches, with the idea of shifting a gallon at a time between kettles during sparge cycle, and finally pumping out the MLT the design approach.
 
Squeeky said:
Over 80 views and no comments :(

Anyone want to just chime in and say that this layout will work. Then I can start gathering parts.

I did a simple brutus 20, no herms, and the efficiency was significantly lower than even a batch sparge system. Not trying to crap in the cornflakes, just suggesting a lo-fi prototype you can brew with before you commit.
 
I would assume efficiency with constant recirc and temp control would improve. Plus with the system being automated, I can truly learn how my system brews, not much room for human error. That way I can adjust my recipes for my system.

The goal is to have a system that I will not want to upgrade in 2 years like I've done with all my previous setups. Also with the hopes of some day moving indoors (still trying to get that one past the wife) it will take up a much smaller footprint.
 
I have decided to break up my wiring into two boxes:

240v Box (located on the brewstand):
- Main Power Input
- 2x Dryer Outlets
- 8x 3P MIC connectors
- 8P MIC ( Connects to Relay board in CP - 8 Valve Signals )
- 8P MIC ( Connects to Relay board in CP - Element Trigger, 120v, Neutral, Ground, vDC+, vDC-, 2x Pump trigger)
- 4x 40A SSR + Heatsink (2x used at 30A, can upgrade to 4x when 50A available)

Control Panel:
- Brewtroller
- DC PSU
- 16 port relay board
- DC Airpump / Sensor


Still haven't decided if I want to run temp probes to the 240v or directly to CP.
 
I would assume efficiency with constant recirc and temp control would improve. Plus with the system being automated, I can truly learn how my system brews, not much room for human error. That way I can adjust my recipes for my system.

The goal is to have a system that I will not want to upgrade in 2 years like I've done with all my previous setups. Also with the hopes of some day moving indoors (still trying to get that one past the wife) it will take up a much smaller footprint.

I had the constant cross-flow sparge as you are showing it which IMHO is the thing driving the lower efficiency. At some point you are sparging with wort instead of water. It seems to max out around 1.050 beers.

Lonnie Mac from this post:

I can't say how many batches I have brewed using this concept on Brutus Ten, and with each, you are exactly right my friend. It is a great fun concept to fool around with but in short, I didn't build the 20 for several reasons... The idea has worked out great for my lower gravity beers, mild's, cream ales, etc...

The real problem is solution. As we know there is a saturation point of any dissolvable solid in water. Our problem of course is sugar in this case. So while there is just the right amount of water to hold ALL the sugar in solution for a light mash, much bigger beers saturate out rather quickly, and no amount of sparging will get the remaining sugars as we are sparging with water that is already saturated beyond retention. This puzzles me that the addition of grain would help this situation that I have experienced as the problem has not been a sugar issue, it remains a sparging issue. I am a BIG cream ale brewer. At first all my trials were based on lighter beers and they worked out great. The system was fun, and a change-up on brew-day was REAL fun. Kinda like playing with new toys!​
 
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Found this explaining the loss in eff%, I think I'm still good. According to the data I'd have max 70% eff on 1.080, just assuming it to be 60-65% it's still not bad.

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Interesting. Because I can tell you from my experience I was 20 points lower, low 60's in efficiency with 11-12 lbs grain bill. But that could have been other issues with my setup to be fair. Where did the graph come from?
 
Ordered remaining supplies from OSCSYS, relay board, and connectors.

Almost everything on order for control panel, waiting till I get the parts so that I can visualize size needed. Going to make as small as possible with the benefit of backplate.

Squeeky
 
I need some help deciding on how I want to connect my element. Since there will only be 1, I would like to keep the output small. I currently have dryer outlets on vessels so it would allow for an easy switch. However I've also considered twist locks, or even better PowerCon connectors.

Any input?
 
I use twist locks on all my elements [2 vessel RIMs]. When you sparge I think you'd be better off putting all the water in the MLT and then recirculating it for atleast 15 mins before dumping it into the BK with the 1st runnings [ie: Mash #2]. I think you're efficiency will be pretty low if you don't.
 
Squeeky,
I like it any way you do it. I love the automated valve idea you have which eliminates the hose cganging issue completely. My only issue is where is your drain to allow a prime to be changed from water to wort or wort back to water. Are you planning to use an electric valve on the water inlet from the city supply too? I am planning to use ball valves till I can afford electric valves and seperate my RO system from the well system with a 3 way selector valve in the inlet. Thanks for the drawing and design ideas.
Bob
 
Well I'll be honest the spraging process can be fine tuned once the system is built! Things are getting closer then I expected. Looking to place an order for stainless fittings by end of the day.

Ordered Still To Place:

Mouser : (Pressure sensor, colored DIN terminals)
Stainless Brewing/Alloy&Stainless : (SS Fitting Order)
Ebay : (Enclosure w/ Backplate, DC Micro Pump, 2nd DC power supply, ?twist lock connectors)
 
Mouser order placed

Awaiting on price update from StainlessBrewing

Can't decide 12x12x6 or 16x12x6 enclsosure
 
I use Bargain Fittings for all my stainless. They keep just aboy any fitting you would ever want in stock. Ship fast and have flat rate based on box size only. Thats where all my cam lock, weldless bulkhead fittings and manual valves came from so far. 16X12X6 if the price isnt out of site. More room for components to dissipate excess heat and easier wiring too. I was thinking of converting a breaker box from HD or Lowes for like 20 buck instead of a purpose built project box for considerably more money. Lots of knock outs for through cables and virgin metal for custom sized hole for connectors and sensors. Just sayin....
Bob
 
Enclosure ordered 16x12x6 along with din rail and estop button. Still have to place my fitting order from stainless and alloy. This is coming together quicker then expect.
 
Squeeky,
Where did you order your control box from and if you dont mind, how much? I'm looking for about the same size or even slightly bigger. I thought of using a breaker panel box and replaceing the face plate with one I made. Do you have a link or pic of what you ordered?
Thanks!!
Wheelchair Bob
 
On my mobile so can't easily copy and paste link. It was from electrical_parts (pioneer breaker) $60 for the 16x12x6 it was actually cheaper than the 12x12x6. Also ordered my Din rails and estop button from them. All for under 75,biggest issue box is heavy, but I really wanted a backpanel and on a budget.
 
Mouser order came in today, darn these 6mm terminal blocks are small. Much smaller then I ever assumed. I will be placing the 120v and 12v on different rails.

Enclosure link
 
Everything expected to arrive today except my pumps and stainless parts. Fittings are in transit, although I was not given a tracking # so they could arrive today :) DC pumps are from GreatBrewEh, which I was concerned until we all got an update last night.

Goal is to have system completed by my birthday on the 26th. Happy 30th to me!
 
Looks like you got it all under control. Did you look extensively for a suitable box or did this one just appeal to you. 60.00 bucks blows my whole months tinker budget but if it is a good deal and representative of whats available in that price range, then I will have to hit momma for a one time waiver of the budget rule. Thats a tough thing to get past the ministry of Finance and Internal accounting.... Any thoughts or input would be greatly appreciated squeeky.
Bob
 
I looked hard for a water resistant enclosure, that had a backpanel. Yes a backpanel can be made with lexan, but I don't have all the tools. The 16x12 gives me plenty of room, and the removable door on the bottom will make drilling the holes for my connectors a breeze. I will likely have Power IN and Element Out coming out the side.

I bought an outlet, as oppose to an inlet so I gotta find some additional on ebay.
 
I found a bunch of two and 3 pin screw on connectors for pretty cheap on feebay. Heres a number I used: http://www.ebay.com/itm/180429630024?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649.

Heres the 2 pin version for thermocouples and sensors too: http://www.ebay.com/itm/170849224254?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649.

And heres ther power in connectors I got today: http://www.ebay.com/itm/110858711894?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Those vendors shipped pretty fast and the connectors are excelent quality. Probably make you miss your Birthday deadline though...
Bob
 
Hi

Be careful with those connectors for thermocouples. They are fine for thermistors or RTD's. For thermocouples you really want something made from the same metals as the thermocouple it's self.

Bob
 
Carlisle,
Isnt the cold junction thermocouple going to cancel any accumulated error from the TC by comparing the cold junction value? I thought that was the reason that I was supposed to use that configuration to eliminate resistance and reading errors. Do you have a circuit diagram for what you have been using? Even just a napkin drawing would help. Any info you can share would be appreciated, just remember I am also an electronic noob so I have to get some stuff spoon fed so I can piece it together. TIA..
Wheelchair Bob
 
Carlisle,
Isnt the cold junction thermocouple going to cancel any accumulated error from the TC by comparing the cold junction value? I thought that was the reason that I was supposed to use that configuration to eliminate resistance and reading errors. Do you have a circuit diagram for what you have been using? Even just a napkin drawing would help. Any info you can share would be appreciated, just remember I am also an electronic noob so I have to get some stuff spoon fed so I can piece it together. TIA..
Wheelchair Bob

Thermocouple connectors, choose K or J depending on your type.

http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/subsectionsc.asp?book=Temperature&subsection=G05&flag=1
 
Carlisle,
Isnt the cold junction thermocouple going to cancel any accumulated error from the TC by comparing the cold junction value? I thought that was the reason that I was supposed to use that configuration to eliminate resistance and reading errors. Do you have a circuit diagram for what you have been using? Even just a napkin drawing would help. Any info you can share would be appreciated, just remember I am also an electronic noob so I have to get some stuff spoon fed so I can piece it together. TIA..
Wheelchair Bob

Hi

Ok, first some theory. Any junction between two different metals is going to be a thermocouple. To do a good job running them as a thermometer you want a thermocouple at the thing you are measuring. Two metals contact there, call them A and B. Since they don't make op-amps out of "thermocouple stuff" you need to have two more thermocouples in the circuit. One is metal A to copper the other is metal B to copper. You then measure the voltage copper to copper. Measure the temperature of the second two thermocouples and correct things. Net result is you can calculate the temperature of the first thermocouple.

The gotcha is you need to *know* the temperature of the second two thermocouples. They don't *have* to be at the same temperature, but wow is it complicated if they are not. The only practical way to do it is to bring the thermocouple metal up to a nice massive block and connect to copper there. Then measure the temperature of that block.

The need for that block and the fiddly stuff to make it work is what makes thermocouples a pain. The connector stuff is pretty easy, you just get the ones they specifically make for the exact type of thermocouple you have. Better yet, don't use connectors, get sensors with long leads on them.

If you do use connectors, you then need thermocouple extension wire to go with them. Normally this is the same metal (A and B) as the thermocouples. That way the thermocouple is made from A and B, the connectors are made from A and B and the wire is A and B. The only place you go to anything other than A and B is at the cold block.

Crazy stuff ....

Bob
 
Did you see the valve and stainless pipe set up that just came back up on the current threads. It is from 2010, but has a very similar setup to yours with some really really nice bent tubing and clean angle. I think the heading says something about Behemoth. Looks great and well thought out. Your auto panel would be perfect on a set up like that.
Bobn
 
Hey Squeeky!

I've talked to you before about the valves, as I'm going with a roughly 20-valve automated setup - includes hot or cold tap water, recirc/transfer for all three vessels, 3 pumps (I want to be able to brew back to back), a switch to send the BK transfer or recirc through a hopback/filter, and totally automated line drainage.

I've had two thoughts of how to control all this, but I really wanted to go with a Brewtroller as well. Problem is, I've been kind of worried I might not be able to properly implement it, and be forced to end up going with a simpler, electrical control setup anyways (similar to Kal's, but with actuated valves, probably controlled on a separate panel). Since our systems are going to be so similar (though mine will be 3 vessels), I'm wondering if I can pick your brain a bit if I run into any roadblocks. Is that okay? It won't be until later this year anyways.

Either way, I'll definitely be watching this thread!
 
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