Converting AG recipe to extract

Is there any quick method that a beginner such as myself could change this AG recipe over to extract?

http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/velvet-hammer-ipa-ag

Use brewing software.

Replace the base grain with pale DME until you get the same abv.

Use the same specialty grains and hops.

which software would be best suited for this task?

also it appears that there are multiple base grains

Beersmith 2.0 is the best software on the market for a homebrewer.

That's a lot of specialty malts though.

Scale them all back, because you only need them for mouthfeel and color (a touch of carapils goes a long ways towards head retention) shoot for the same OG using light DME instead of 2 row, then shoot for the same SRM using lesser amounts of your specialty malts.

I'd scale it for you but I'm mobile right now.

The quick 'n easy way to convert any recipe is to keep the specialty grains the same, and to use extract to replace the base malt.

For the extract, generally 1 pound two-row= .75 pound pale LME = .6 pound light DME.

You could use corn sugar for the corn, without any issues.

It's a bit "messy" with a little of this, little of that, so I'd do something about the 1% of caramel 10L and the caramunich and the 7% of carapils, but it won't hurt to keep those if you'd like. It's just a weird way to get 9% crystal malt.

thanks guys

1 lb base malt = ~.75 lb of LME = ~.66 lb DME

Software is also a very good idea, I'd go with BS2.

edit: damn Yoop, beat me to it.

I like BrewR on droid.

If you are just starting out, I'd keep it simple. If you add 12 grains to an IPA, you really aren't going to know if you like any of them. If you start with a nice, clean recipe, you can add a new element each time and really see what YOU like in your IPA.

eg Extract + 1/2 lb crystal. (with the crystal in the 10-60 range depending on the color you prefer)

Once you've tried that, you'll have a base to compare to. If you want to lighten it up, you can add corn or corn sugar. If you want a little more "mouth feel", you can add some carapils. If you want a little more sweetness/carmel, you can add some more crystal. If you want a little more bready, malty taste, add some of that caramunich.

I agree Bill, that some experimental "incremental" or ingredient specific experimentation is a good idea, I also think that brewing a REAL recipe is valuable too.

The first borrowed IPA recipe (and my first AG) that I did as a relative noob showed me that I could brew beer as well as anyone on the equipment I had. That is important too!

Yooper said:

For the extract, generally 1 pound two-row= .75 pound pale LME = .6 pound light DME.

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Extract comes in different types. Any advice on determining which types of extract? I imagine it's a judgement call?

The grains include 2-row (10 lbs--71%), Carapils (1 lbs), Munich (1 lb 7%), and white wheat (8 oz. 3%) [12 lbs malt + 8. oz wheat]. So I figure (I'm doing this for my own education; I do *not* know what I'm doing and am very inexperienced. in other words, I'm asking for critique; I'm not offering the OP a foolproof solution):

1.5 lbs of Munich LME
7.5 lbs of Pale LME
.75 lbs corn syrup (see question below; flaked corn to corn syrup is 1 to .75?)

steep:
8 oz white wheat
4 oz caramunich
4 oz crystal 10L

I figure:
9 lbs LME = 12 lbs grain.
Munich LME is 1/2 Munich grain and 1/2 "other".
So this is 1 lbs of Munich and 11 lbs of "other" which is mostly 2-row and bit of carapils jumping into the mix. Or should I have added a third type of extract? Or used a different extract than pale?

And what about the wheat? I figure there's no practical way to do wheat as an extract so we just steep them as a specialty grain? Should I steep some or all of the carapils?

You could use corn sugar for the corn, without any issues.

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Also at 1 lb corn = .75 lbs corn syrup I assume????? Or is it one to one?

What about corn sugar? I assume not?
===edit===
Oops. You *said* corn sugar. I don't know why I read corn *syrup*, but I did.
===end edit====

Can we steep the flaked corn?

DME and LME aren't going to differentiate between 2 row or 6 row. I use all pale (or extra pale) DME when brewing extract. All color and flavor should come from specialty grains and hops.

woozy said:

1.5 lbs of Munich LME
7.5 lbs of Pale LME
.75 lbs corn syrup (see question below; flaked corn to corn syrup is 1 to .75?)

steep:
8 oz white wheat
4 oz caramunich
4 oz crystal 10L


Also at 1 lb corn = .75 lbs corn syrup I assume????? Or is it one to one?

What about corn sugar? I assume not?

Can we steep the flaked corn?

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Well, I would just use the Munich in the mash/steep, and not worry about getting it into the LME. Munich LME can be hard to find, and it's not necessary. I'd go more simple, and keep the grains (except for the corn) the same and just sub pale LME or light DME for the two-row.

Corn should be mashed with a grain with enough diastastic pwer to convert it, so I'd sub that with corn sugar. One-to-one is close enough.

So here is my conversion of that recipe:

7.5 pounds pale LME or 6 pound of light (or extra light) DME
1 pound carapils
1 pound Munich malt
.5 pound white wheat malt
.25 pound caramunich
.25 pound crystal 10L
.75 pound corn sugar (not 1-for-1, but a whole pound would be fine if wanted)

(I'd actually make it simpler, and leave out the carapils and white wheat malt, since it's redundant in this recipe and not needed, and use 1 pound total of caramunich OR crystal 10L but that is not the actual recipe. The original recipe is a bit "fussy" and I wouldn't bother buying .25 pound of grains that don't matter).

To answer your question generally, the following link is really useful. It's like 15 years old and reads a little like a textbook, but the ideas are sound.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~brewbeer/extract/pres.pdf

To your specific example (and if you read the link I provided, you will be able to do this yourself) start with the wheat:

You need to replace half a pound. To do so, you need 0.3lbs DME. But since wheat DME is likely only 50% wheat, you need to double that to 0.6lbs. With this addition you have half a pound of wheat and half a pound of two row (the likely balance of the 50% wheat).

Now replace more of the two row. You have 9.5lbs to replace. I'd replace 7.5lbs with 4.5lbs of pale extract.

So your new recipe is 0.6lbs wheat DME, 7.5lbs light DME, and a bunch if crystal and cara specialty grains. Personally, I would cut out a few of those specialty grains, but that is up to you. The notes in that recipe actually say it is a stone clone with extra grains.

This recipe I tracked down is supposed to be a clone of a very popular and hard to find beer around here, thats why I wanted to try the recipe.

jmoney05 said:

This recipe I tracked down is supposed to be a clone of a very popular and hard to find beer around here, thats why I wanted to try the recipe.

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I saw that on the recipe, but it's not. Nowhere close to a recipe for Stone IPA. Or a good IPA at all for that matter. Stone IPA would be roughly 13 lbs of 2-row and roughly 1 lb of crystal 15 (maybe Crisp caramalt). Magnum an Perle hops at 90 mins for bittering and Centennial late and dry hop. There are clone recipes for this beer, both AG and extract in BYO magazine. You can find it in the BYO 250 Classic Clone issue that's available at many home brew stores. Or right here in this link.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

I saw that on the recipe, but it's not. Nowhere close to a recipe for Stone IPA. Or a good IPA at all for that matter. Stone IPA would be roughly 13 lbs of 2-row and roughly 1 lb of crystal 15 (maybe Crisp caramalt). Magnum an Perle hops at 90 mins for bittering and Centennial late and dry hop. There are clone recipes for this beer, both AG and extract in BYO magazine. You can find it in the BYO 250 Classic Clone issue that's available at many home brew stores. Or right here in this link.

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I was a little surprised by the recipe as well. Not only is there a LOT of crystal (I remember Stone IPA being a dryer IPA) but it has wheat which was also unexpected. I just figured I was a noob and didn't know what I should expect.

OP, if it was me (which you obviously aren't, so feel free to disregard my comments ) I would follow my previous post (or others' - they are probably fine, too) and include what i posted but omit all but the lightest crystal. Not sure why caramunich was in the grain bill, that might be the most unexpected at least to me. Good luck.

I put 2 lbs of crystal in my IIPA and people love it.

cheezydemon3 said:

I put 2 lbs of crystal in my IIPA and people love it.

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Probably has higher alcohol and more hops as well. But you have a good point. Again, I'm not saying it is wrong to do it. OP (or anyone else for that matter) can do whatever s/he would like to do. I made that comment regarding the Stone IPA clone, not IPAs in general. Some are maltier than others.

Oh I thought they were copying this beer

http://www.arborbrewing.com/beers/30

this is the one that I'm trying to emulate.

jmoney05 said:

Oh I thought they were copying this beer

http://www.arborbrewing.com/beers/30

this is the one that I'm trying to emulate.

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That beer is a barrel aged sour brown, you aren't going to be able to replicate that very well with extract and traditional yeast. That's an extremely complex beer

jmoney05 said:

Oh I thought they were copying this beer

http://www.arborbrewing.com/beers/30

this is the one that I'm trying to emulate.

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Oooh, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but... no.

I think that they are both called "Velvet Hammer" is coincidental and that the two beers are completely unaware of each other. They are completely different beers.

I'm very sorry to have to tell you that.

=================
from http://la.worldclassbeer.com/beerspy/product/arbor-brewing-velvet-hammer/7700/ (about the 2008 version)
"The Velvet Hammer is a beer three years in the making. Its base is a Belgian-style Dubbel brewed early in 2008. That beer was then blended with an old ale that has been aging in a Gueuze-innoculated oak barrel since 2005. The resulting brew was then bottle-conditioned over the summer."

I never like to tell people to give up but this is not a beer for amateurs. To start with it'll take over a year. Then...

+++++++++++
but on a positive note you can try researching Belgian Dubbels and get something, while a different beer, of a similar style.

jmoney05 said:

Oh I thought they were copying this beer

http://www.arborbrewing.com/beers/30

this is the one that I'm trying to emulate.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the original recipe you posted, named Velvet Hammer, said it's a Stone IPA clone w/added specialty grains. The Velvet Hammer sour beer you linked above is a sour brown with ~15 IBU, the recipe in the OP will not reproduce either. What beer are you trying to make; a sour brown or an IPA? They are drastically different beers with drastically different recipes and procedures. And Channel66 is correct, you're not going to reproduce a sour with just us-05 nor do you want to make the base for a sour from extract, extract just doesn't hold up well or provide the proper environment for the various microbes that ferment sours.

"extract just doesn't hold up well or provide the proper environment for the various microbes that ferment sours."

What? Why would you think that? Extract is literally just dried wort. You can most certainly make a sour out of extract. The bacteria are not going to know the difference.

But yeah, US-05 isn't going to make a sour beer. It's a very clean ale yeast with little flavor of its own. A sour is all about the cirtters, so you have to start with the right citters.

And yeah, it really isn't a good beginner beer. Anything that requires extended aging should only be tackled by people who are confident in their process already. No use spending a year aging a "practice" batch.

billl said:

"extract just doesn't hold up well or provide the proper environment for the various microbes that ferment sours."

What? Why would you think that? Extract is literally just dried wort. You can most certainly make a sour out of extract. The bacteria are not going to know the difference.

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Hey man, I'm not trying to start an argument. My statement was based on the fact that an all extract beer is generally not going to hold up as well over the long periods of time needed to make a good sour as a grain wort. Also, you cannot control the mash on an extract beer because there is none. IMO, a more involved mash involving unmalted grains, a beta glucan and protein rest, maybe going as far as a cereal mash or even a full on turbid mash for some sour bases depending on the grist composition is helpful in making the best sour beer possible. I'm not saying you can't, or even shouldn't make a sour beer using extract, I'd just think given the time investment in a sour beer one would be best served to create a wort that is designed to give a good habitat for the dozens of microbes at work.

billl said:

But yeah, US-05 isn't going to make a sour beer.

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Look, it's simply a different beer altogether.

Once it's determined that Bob's Net Works makes fishing equipment there's really no point discussing why nylon woven rope is not a good choice for the router and server needs of your online presence.

One's a pale ale, another's Belgian Dubbel oak-aged as a sour brewed brewed in Michigan, a third's an Imperial red brewed in Texas, a fourth is mixing Guiness with Stoli Vanilla, and a fifth is tapping a person's forehead with an erect penis.

There's really no point in discussing why one is different from the other.

The one the OP has in mind as a very ambitious and nuanced signature and "craft" brew in the *actual* sense of the word. It might be something to work up to but it's "up there". One can start by making some belgian dubbels. Or some sours. And one can have a velvet hammer clone (Ann Arbor brew) in mind as one works toward mastery in the brewing arts. But this beer is really a "master work" rather than a "I'd like to try that next".

" My statement was based on the fact that an all extract beer is generally not going to hold up as well over the long periods of time needed to make a good sour as a grain wort."

Yes, and that was why I asked why you would think that. Extract is literally the exact same ingredients of the same quality that you would use in your mash. It will "hold up" exactly as well as any other wort and will provide a perfectly fine environment for all the various critters to thrive. Obviously, mashing it yourself provides the ability to tweak your mash schedule as you see fit, but extract is perfectly stable and suitable for long aging periods.

The OP's barrier to making a sour isn't extract - it's experience.

To get a sour, you leave grains out in a bowl.......I am not sure that a bowl of extract would do the same thing. I don't think that this is an extract snob comment.

I DO think that you could buy a bowl full of whatever grains and sour them and be fine though.

billl said:

The OP's barrier to making a sour isn't extract - it's experience.

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..and time and patience.

Or so we assume.

Actually there isn't any actual "barrier" to making an sour that I can see, except that we don't really do it much and it seems a little scary and misunderstood and so we usually shelf it into the corner and say it's an "advanced" topic.

I wouldn't recommend a sour to a novice for a combination of reasons (it takes to look, a sour is an exception and one's first beers should, for learning experience, be "typical"). But I think my *main* reason is one can't really predict how a sour will turn out. One can't say "if you do this and that it will result in how and why".

But I also hate telling a novice what he or she can't do.

I'd say this is an advanced beer because: i) It sour ages for a long time and that's unpredictable. Their web site indicates that each batch differs which indicates it's tempermental and the brewer fusses and tweaks with it using knowledge derived from experience. ii) It's oak barreled aged. This can be replicated by racking of oak chips. I've never done that but it might be easy. But again it's something you tweak with experience. iii) The recipe, a belgian dubbel is "advanced" for a first beer but a fast study can probably do it soon and it's certainly not impossible for a first beer

The main thing is it's a beer that requires tweaking and guidance that comes with experience.

cheezydemon3 said:

To get a sour, you leave grains out in a bowl.......I am not sure that a bowl of extract would do the same thing. I don't think that this is an extract snob comment.

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Don't many sours come from souring the wort *post*mash and/or *post* boil? Or by simply pitching a wild yeast?

Wouldn't be any reason an extract couldn't sour equally.

I'll admit that if some sours come via souring the grain pre or during mash that'd be different than anything an extract can do. But is the that actually typical of most sours (I've actually never hear of it) and is irreplicably different from souring later?

well i will be keeping that project on the back burner for a bit then until I get an all grain setup

thanks for all the input guys

jmoney05 said:

well i will be keeping that project on the back burner for a bit then until I get an all grain setup

thanks for all the input guys

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I hope we answered at least your general question, even if specifics got REALLY specific. Anything else we can help you with?

"To get a sour, you leave grains out in a bowl.......I am not sure that a bowl of extract would do the same thing. I don't think that this is an extract snob comment."

Ah - there is the disconnect. That really isn't the traditional way to make a sour. You make the wort as usual. Then you add yeast and critters and let them get to work. A year or so later, you've got a sour beer. You absolutely can do that with extract.

billl said:

" My statement was based on the fact that an all extract beer is generally not going to hold up as well over the long periods of time needed to make a good sour as a grain wort."

Yes, and that was why I asked why you would think that. Extract is literally the exact same ingredients of the same quality that you would use in your mash. It will "hold up" exactly as well as any other wort and will provide a perfectly fine environment for all the various critters to thrive. Obviously, mashing it yourself provides the ability to tweak your mash schedule as you see fit, but extract is perfectly stable and suitable for long aging periods.

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Right, like I said, it can be done with extract. But since you can't run the proper mash with extract, it's not going to be the ideal environment for souring bacteria over the long term. You've been around here for awhile, Billl, I know that you know about malliard reactions, the instability of extract over the long term, the process in which extract is made (i.e. simple infusion mash), the amount of adjunct (i.e. unmalted grain) that goes into a traditional sour beer, and the process of mashing said adjuncts. Again, not saying you can't make a sour beer with extracts, just pointing out the limits in doing so. It's my opinion that a brewer would be best served making a beer like this from grain and not extract. Not trying to argue with ya man.

Oh, and cheezy, I really hope you're joking. I assume you are, but you're leading these n00bs astray.

I'm not trying to argue, just provide some clarity for new brewers. Sours are becoming increasingly popular, so I'm sure lots of people will be around trying to brew them. May as well get some info to them about how to best accomplish that. Otherwise, you get misinformation flowing like "to get a sour, you leave the grains out in a bowl."

The grain bill for something like a traditional flander style sour is pretty simple. Pilsner, munich/vienna, corn, a little special b or other dark malt. Lots of unmalted wheat is common in some modern brews, but isn't particularly traditional. Since you can get munich and pilsner extract now and flaked maize is common, you are good to go.

For mash schedule - everyone has their preferences, but a "medium" fermentable wort is pretty standard. The critters are what really dry out the style anyway. Depending on the mix of critters you prefer, you might like more simple sugars to sour faster or more complex sugars to get more brett in the mix. That is more preference than requirement. With extract, that choice is made for you and you'll only be able to adjust the mix by varying the timing and amount of the various critters.

Malliard reactions are actually desired in many styles. Most of the commercial brewers are doing 2 hour boils to get that subtle kettle flavor.

Many sours are purposely unstable. I mean, you are dosing them with bacteria, right? They also are aged in barrels and exposed to o2. You don't want a ton of protein in the mix, but most malts and extracts are low protein already.

Honestly, the bacteria and "wild" yeast that make traditional sours are some of the toughest organisms on earth. We spend a ton of time cleaning and sanitizing just to keep them out of most of our beer. You really don't have to worry about them thriving in the wort. The only real "trick" is getting the balance of those various flavors to your liking. I've tasted some extract sours that did a great job of that (to me at least) and some AG sours that were just bad. There are no shortage of ways to make good, or bad, beer.

woozy said:

..and time and patience.

Or so we assume.

Actually there isn't any actual "barrier" to making an sour that I can see, except that we don't really do it much and it seems a little scary and misunderstood and so we usually shelf it into the corner and say it's an "advanced" topic.

I wouldn't recommend a sour to a novice for a combination of reasons (it takes to look, a sour is an exception and one's first beers should, for learning experience, be "typical"). But I think my *main* reason is one can't really predict how a sour will turn out. One can't say "if you do this and that it will result in how and why".

But I also hate telling a novice what he or she can't do.

I'd say this is an advanced beer because: i) It sour ages for a long time and that's unpredictable. Their web site indicates that each batch differs which indicates it's tempermental and the brewer fusses and tweaks with it using knowledge derived from experience. ii) It's oak barreled aged. This can be replicated by racking of oak chips. I've never done that but it might be easy. But again it's something you tweak with experience. iii) The recipe, a belgian dubbel is "advanced" for a first beer but a fast study can probably do it soon and it's certainly not impossible for a first beer

The main thing is it's a beer that requires tweaking and guidance that comes with experience.

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You are pretty much on point. I just started brewing last december, I only have an extract setup, and I just finished my 4 tap keezer. Since we are leasing our new home for a year, I'm holding off buying a all grain system until we buy a house sometime next summer. I want to do it right and get a system like the sabco so that I can really control everything and start to tweak things. Holding off on that recipe till then just makes sense. I look to copying that beer as kind of a "grail" for me since it is unbelievably good, and nearly impossible to find. Getting that one nailed down would be fantastic.

freisste said:

I hope we answered at least your general question, even if specifics got REALLY specific. Anything else we can help you with?

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You did, this site and community as always has put me on the right track. I'm hoping that together we can nail that brew down in a year or so and create something really awesome.

jmoney05 said:

. I look to copying that beer as kind of a "grail" for me since it is unbelievably good, and nearly impossible to find. Getting that one nailed down would be fantastic.

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There's nothing wrong with having a "grail" in mind as you master a craft. It *sounds* like a fantastic beer. I'm really sorry the recipe you found was an utterly different beer. You can still *do* that utterly different beer with extract but... well, it's an utterly different beer.

Shakes head and walks away....

woozy, that post was hilarious.

When I saw the OP's recipe, my heart fluttered and I thought it was this one..

Peticolas - Velvet Hammer
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/28520/79038

it's the Imperial Red from Texas woozy mentioned. In fact I'm going to a Peticolas brewery night at a local pub tonight...

I guess I should have looked the beer up before posting so much about sour formulation

The website claims it is a dubbel base that they age for a year in gueuze-inoculated oak casks . The only description of the malt is "dark fruit".

Generic starting point for an extract based version:

8lbs pilsner DME
1 lb dark candi syrup
0.5 lb special b
1oz saaz @ 60
If there is any hop aroma to it, another 0.5oz @10

Never had the beer, so not sure how sour it is. The website says "moderate acidity" and "subtle". If so, wy3787 to start. 3 days in, add wy3278 or wy3763. Let it ferment out for at least 6 months or so. Once it gets to the sour level you want, toss in some oak cubes and continue to age until you get the level of oak you want.

Of course, if this is going to be an eventual "grail" recipe, it's a small enough brewery that they might give you some direct guidance.