First Cider Attempt - from my apple trees

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Hi Guys

I have been doing a lot of Google research and reading round the forum as I wait for my apples to be ready for harvest but I still have a few outstanding questions. If anyone could answer any of them I would be very happy :)

So far I have brought some


I have also made with bits and bobs round the house

  • An Apple Press

Now my questions

  1. Do I need anything else to get brewing?
  2. How do I work out which apple tree has bitter apples and which one has sweet apples and how many of each shall I use. I have 5 apple trees in my garden all totally different plus many in near gardens which are again different so I am sure I have some good cider apples just telling which one is which is a challenge when I have little apple knowledge. If I do find any that are good people are also more than welcome to come get some! Apples have been a pain to clear up hence the cider making idea :)
  3. I am aiming for a low alcohol level (4-5%) sweet cider, I have heard that if I just add sugar to the cider it will make the bottles go BANG. Hence I brought the Camden tablets. If I make the cider then add these, then add sugar will it be ok?
  4. How long should it take to ferment - going for this low level of alcohol, also I think the yeast I have is express yeast?


Thanks again and sorry for the long post but I got carried away!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It would be difficult to keep the alc. that low unless you dilute, which is anathema to me. Picking the apples less ripe would effect the flavour. The normal level is 6-7% so you shouldn't worry too much about it. One alternative is to sweeten it as you drink it with a little AJ, this would solve both the alcohol and sweetening problems.

You may need a larger container for 5 apple trees!

You need to mill (crush) the apples before pressing, I use a garden mulcher which works well. I got that idea from the river cottage TV show.

Fermentation should be over in a week, I would advise carbonating your cider when bottling.
 
It would be difficult to keep the alc. that low unless you dilute, which is anathema to me. Picking the apples less ripe would effect the flavour. The normal level is 6-7% so you shouldn't worry too much about it. One alternative is to sweeten it as you drink it with a little AJ, this would solve both the alcohol and sweetening problems.

You may need a larger container for 5 apple trees!

You need to mill (crush) the apples before pressing, I use a garden mulcher which works well. I got that idea from the river cottage TV show.

Fermentation should be over in a week, I would advise carbonating your cider when bottling.
Hi thanks for your reply :)

Love the idea of adding extra AJ to weaken it and add sweetness and flavor - is that what companies like Bulmers do then? Because I think there cider is 4.5%?

I think I would need a 1000 liter fermentation tank if I was going to take advantage of all the apples (I clear 2 wheel barrows off the ground is day in apple season)

Even then I know 1 tree is a cooker and one is a hybrid but I am still no further on working out which ones I should use. Any links on working out which apples are which type would be great. Like working out how bitter or sweet they are.

I have an pretty decent food machine that works for pulping - for the first few batches anyway. I will see how well it goes if I goes well the scale can increase :rockin:

Ok so just to check I

Collect apples when they are ready
take out the stalk and seeds
Pulp them in my food thingy
press them in my home made press
add a Camden tab to kill wild yeast
let it ferment for about a week (but can keep an eye with the hydro meter and it should go to 6%ish)
Then add another Camden tablet and then some more AJ
Then carbonating I need to google
and then I bottel
and then we drink

Thanks :mug:
 
A healthy mix of cookers and eaters is the advised way with cider. Personally I'd go for something scrumpy like.
 
How should I go about the mix - trial and error?

Do you reckon if I get a good tasting AJ then I am on the roads to a good tasting cider. So if I press them separately I would try a few glasses of different mixes of juice?
 
my suggestion was to bottle without adding sweetener, then sweeten with AJ as you drink it by adding to your glass. camden by itself won't stop the yeast, you need to use potassium sorbate as well (I think).
I think ciders like bulmers may dilute their juice a bit as well as using concentrate to sweeten. They sterile filter to stop the yeast.
 
How should I go about the mix - trial and error?

Do you reckon if I get a good tasting AJ then I am on the roads to a good tasting cider. So if I press them separately I would try a few glasses of different mixes of juice?

I don't think you'd particularly enjoy drinking the juice neat that would make a good traditional cider, it should be a lot tarter than you'd choose to drink.

I think you're looking at a mix of mostly eaters to some cookers, I really don't honestly know the correct proportions as I've only done one cider from pressed apples and they were cookers and the cider was not so good in my eyes, too tart.
I normally use the lidl cloudy apple juices to make my ciders and either add the juice of some bramleys or add in some wine tannin to bring in the tannins and tartness.
I then tend to sweeten it when I go to drink it with some of the fresh apple juice, this makes it a lot easier to do and saves all the stabilisation problems.
That said I go for easy still cloudy scrumpy style ciders and they come out very easy and very good.

Pressing apples is a lot of work by the way, I hope your home made press can manage it.
 
my suggestion was to bottle without adding sweetener, then sweeten with AJ as you drink it by adding to your glass. camden by itself won't stop the yeast, you need to use potassium sorbate as well (I think).

Hmm maybe it will not work totally but I think it works quite well from wikipidea anyway...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campden_tablets said:
Campden tablets (potassium or sodium metabisulphite) are a sulphur-based product that is used primarily in wine, cider and beer making to kill certain bacteria and to inhibit the growth of most wild yeast
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campden_tablets said:
ampden tablets are also used towards the end of the fermentation process to halt the ferment before all the available sugars are converted by the yeast, hence controlling the amount of residual sweetness in the final product. This balancing between sweet, dry and tart flavors is part of the artistry of wine and cider making.


I don't think you'd particularly enjoy drinking the juice neat that would make a good traditional cider, it should be a lot tarter than you'd choose to drink.

I think you're looking at a mix of mostly eaters to some cookers, I really don't honestly know the correct proportions as I've only done one cider from pressed apples and they were cookers and the cider was not so good in my eyes, too tart.
I normally use the lidl cloudy apple juices to make my ciders and either add the juice of some bramleys or add in some wine tannin to bring in the tannins and tartness.
I then tend to sweeten it when I go to drink it with some of the fresh apple juice, this makes it a lot easier to do and saves all the stabilisation problems.
That said I go for easy still cloudy scrumpy style ciders and they come out very easy and very good.

Pressing apples is a lot of work by the way, I hope your home made press can manage it.

Ok so I will aim for a tarter apple juice - then a bit of trial and error. If it is only going to be a week a batch and will get a couple of months of apples I think by the end we may have something good.

What would be the advantage of adding the AJ before drinking rather than at the time of bottling?

And my press should be ok - Would be able to put 2 tons of force on the apples but I reckon my frame should hold between 0.5 and 1 tons so I will go easy and I think that should be enough...

Thanks for all your help guys and I will let you all know how it goes - if anyone has anymore tips feel free to let me know but I will be back for more advice after the first batch is ready! :D

Cheers :mug:
 
Well the advantage of adding the juice before I drink is that I end up with a brew that is about 8.5%, then I can thin this to taste and alcoholic strength without the hassle of having to filter the yeast out or stabilising the brew to stop refermentation when I add more sugar. Basically less chemicals to be added and allows me to mix it to taste.
 
The big cider companies generally kill the yeast and filter big time and then artificially carbonate. Great for mass production, but kinda silly for the small scale. Generally speaking, traditional ciders use about 1/3 bittersweet apples, 1/3 bittersharp and the final third makes up a lot of the flavor by using a dessert (eating) apple or whatever flavor they are going for. So, depending on what apples you have in your orchard depends on what cider you can make from it. but there is a lot of room for mixing percentages to get what you want. Remember, the more sugary the apple (dessert/eating apples generally are higher) the higher ABV generally speaking. This isn't entirely accurate of course, but for simplicity, it works.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is a good yeast nutrient. Apples are low in complex vitamins and a nutrient will help the yeast along and survive. Remeber that your cider is going to be in the carboy and bottle longer than your brew so the added nutrient helps keep fermentation going along smoothly during primary and secondary (I recommend a secondary with cider to clear it up. Definitely if you are doing it from home-pressed cider and I commend you for that). Also, you can substitute heating the cider to 175*F for 45 mintues to kill most of the wild yeast without the Camden, but that's totally up to you. I've heard that if you use the Camden tablets, you need to get a small starter going for a day before adding to the must, but I haven't used that method so I can't vouch one way or the other.
 
Just a note, this could all be wrong. my knowledge is mostly theoretical from Andrew Lea's personal education and experience and trolling these forums and cider sites. Andrew is one of the leading, traditional homebrewers of cider in the world. his website is The Wittenham Hill Cider Portal.

Myself, I'm currently doing an cider from late harvest apples left from last year (we have an odd growing season here in the desert--our late harvest is in May). Home pressed and currently in secondary. The methods I've listed above are the ones that I've followed with the addition of using brown sugar and honey to sweeten the must as I used a slightly less sweet desert apple. the brown sugar will hold some of it's flavor and some of the unfermentable sugar in it, so as to not overpower the ABV. I'm expecting a FG around 1.005, so it will be rather dry as my OG was 1.062. The SG at 17 days (the point that I racked to secondary) was 1.015.
 
When you are evaluating a juice mix for fermenting, you want to pay attention to at least four dimensions. First the smell – if it doesn’t smell good before the ferment, its not likely to get better. Then the first hit of the taste, which should be appley and sweet. The initial sugar taste should fade out fairly quickly and not be syrupy. The midrange is harder to describe, but want a nice flavor when its sitting in your mouth – preferably multiple flavors.- something that remind you of biting into an apple in an orchard (as opposed to drinking a juice box when you were a kid). Then you have the finish, where a tart note is nice as long as not too tart.

Within these four dimensions of juice are many sub dimensions. Some folks will argue there are at least 6 or 8 main dimensions of juice. But whatever – with most apples you will be really lucky to get 2 or 3 of the 4 basic dimensions. You’ll probably need to experiment a bit with the apples you have, especially since you don’t know the names. But make sure you have at least all four dimensions present in some degree – and the stronger the better - before you crush them and pitch the yeast or you are unlikely to get good results once the sugar is fermented off.

If you want a low ABV cider, just don’t add any sugar and cold crash when the sg is somewhere between 1.010 and 1.020. Don’t let it go all the way dry. Most commercial ciderys stop fermentation one way or another (I really don’t recommend k-meta and k-sorbate – it affects the taste too much). If you check the sg on a commercial cider, it will be in the 1.015 to 1.025 range. Cold crashing is a lot easier for a home brewer. I’d skip the AJ concentrate, as it is mostly made with crap apples.

I would also skip the nutrient if you are trying to get a sweet cider. See:
Nitrogen - the Forgotten Element in Cider Making

If you are picking and pressing these apples yourself, not taking any fruit that has been on the ground any length of time, sanitize your press and all equipment before you start, then in all likelihood, you don’t really need the camden

I can understand wanting to use it, especially if this is your first batch, as an extra insurance against an infection. In my opinion, the insurance is not worth the premium that you pay in the taste – a raw acidic bite that takes many months to mellow. If you are planning to let this age for at least 6 months, then it probably doesnt matter. If you want to drink it sooner, you might want to rethink the camden

I have been adding k-meta just like everyone for years. Halfway through this season, I got some good advice from a cider maker who used to worked as a microbiologist for one of the major wineries. He didn’t use k-meta and said the place he used to worked for only used k-meta before fermentation if they suspected they had a problem, which was rarely, and for bleaching some whites

The “recommended” dose of k-meta (1/4tsp in 5 gal or 1 tablet per gal) is based on being able to create a certain amount of free SO2 when the k-meta is added to the grape juice. However grape juice is very different than apple juice. Much more sugar and different acids. While you are not supposed to be able to taste the “recommended” dose of k-meta in grape juice, you can definitely taste it in apple juice.

If you want to play it safe and add some Camden tablets, then I suggest that before adding any, you pour off a small glass of juice. Crush the tablets and add them to the carboy one at a time. Each time, draw off a little bit of juice and compare to the original juice. If you can taste the difference, don’t add any more campden.

I started cutting back on the amount of k-meta that I use for cider this season. The improvement was noticeable. The ciders took much less time to be drinkable. I made 10 kegs with ½ the recommend dose and 7 more with no k-meta. Several of them were good to go a month after pressing. Eight months later, the ones that are left still taste fine.

If you do good quality control on the condition of your fruit and press, the risk of picking up a nasty spoilage bug like Brett or Acetobacter is very small. The yeast and alcohol will kill just about everything else.
 
Wow some long replies there! Even longer than some of my posts - thanks very much! :D Ok so much information I am going to have to split this post into sections

Had to google quite a few of those terms and read it a few times so I could reply. (only came up with brewing cider a couple of weeks ago) O well need to learn fast by diving in the deep end :mug:

Apples and the Juice

Generally speaking, traditional ciders use about 1/3 bittersweet apples, 1/3 bittersharp and the final third makes up a lot of the flavor by using a dessert (eating) apple or whatever flavor they are going for. So, depending on what apples you have in your orchard depends on what cider you can make from it.
How do I tell what type of apples are which? Took me long enough to work out which ones where cookers and which ones where eaters! :cross:

but ok I will taste my apple juice and aim for those 4 flavors - I am pretty sure we won't be there the first time but every-time we can get a bit closer.

Killing Yeast
(kind of gave up with the quoting for this bit was so much and made it look a mess)

Cold Crashing = putting it in the freezer right? and that kills all the yeast that is left? Just like Camden but with no taste effects. Which is perfect for me if this is true?...

Also it was suggested that I should heat it to 175*F (80 Celsius I think) to at the start which also does the same. Could I not just freeze it at the start or would this not work?

On Cider.org.uk it recommends the use of Camden tablets to kill bacteria that will spoil the brew and also says that by the time you drink the cider there will be none left... So does it really taste? but if the freezing and the boiling does the same thing I am not against that, although boiling a gallon of juice may take some time.

Sweet Cider

So you reckon it will best cold crashing it when it reaches 4%-5% rather than letting it carry on till 6 and adding extra apple juice at the end?

Thank you very much for your detailed answers they are very helpful and I am learning so much - but I am afraid answers are just bringing more questions atm! Seems there is a lot more to cider making than the first thought!​


edit - forgot to say thanks for this link - is answering so many questions that I had not even come up with yet!
 
I have been adding k-meta just like everyone for years. Halfway through this season, I got some good advice from a cider maker who used to worked as a microbiologist for one of the major wineries. He didn’t use k-meta and said the place he used to worked for only used k-meta before fermentation if they suspected they had a problem, which was rarely, and for bleaching some whites

The “recommended” dose of k-meta (1/4tsp in 5 gal or 1 tablet per gal) is based on being able to create a certain amount of free SO2 when the k-meta is added to the grape juice. However grape juice is very different than apple juice. Much more sugar and different acids. While you are not supposed to be able to taste the “recommended” dose of k-meta in grape juice, you can definitely taste it in apple juice.

If you want to play it safe and add some Camden tablets, then I suggest that before adding any, you pour off a small glass of juice. Crush the tablets and add them to the carboy one at a time. Each time, draw off a little bit of juice and compare to the original juice. If you can taste the difference, don’t add any more campden.

.

I presume your friend was referring to camden in primary. During primary, byproducts of fermentation ( mainly acetaldehyde ) bind to SO2 and inactivate it, so it isn't really necessary at that stage. At the end of primary there will be no free SO2 and it has to be added. Pretty much all wineries use camden in secondary becaise it is too risky to leave it out. In a wine shop the only bottles that don't have SO2 listed as additive will be the organic wines.
I don't find the flavour of camden tablets a problem, though I don't think it very necessary in a carbonated cider that has been through malo-lactic. Perhaps the difference in flavour you have noticed is that your cider is now going through a malolactic, which I believe to be inevitable in cider if you don't use camden.
 
Regarding the cultivars of apples used in cidermaking, here is an old (1965) but rather comprehensive list: http://www.cider.org.uk/identification_of_cider_apples.pdf

You may not find these apples locally, but by reading the descriptions and flavors, you may be able to find local apples that have similar qualities. Really, any apples will work, but it will affect flaver and sweetness.
 
Wow some long replies there! Even longer than some of my posts - thanks very much! :D Ok so much information I am going to have to split this post into sections

Had to google quite a few of those terms and read it a few times so I could reply. (only came up with brewing cider a couple of weeks ago) O well need to learn fast by diving in the deep end :mug:

Apples and the Juice

How do I tell what type of apples are which? Took me long enough to work out which ones where cookers and which ones where eaters! :cross:

but ok I will taste my apple juice and aim for those 4 flavors - I am pretty sure we won't be there the first time but every-time we can get a bit closer.

Killing Yeast
(kind of gave up with the quoting for this bit was so much and made it look a mess)

Cold Crashing = putting it in the freezer right? and that kills all the yeast that is left? Just like Camden but with no taste effects. Which is perfect for me if this is true?...

Also it was suggested that I should heat it to 175*F (80 Celsius I think) to at the start which also does the same. Could I not just freeze it at the start or would this not work?

On Cider.org.uk it recommends the use of Camden tablets to kill bacteria that will spoil the brew and also says that by the time you drink the cider there will be none left... So does it really taste? but if the freezing and the boiling does the same thing I am not against that, although boiling a gallon of juice may take some time.

Sweet Cider

So you reckon it will best cold crashing it when it reaches 4%-5% rather than letting it carry on till 6 and adding extra apple juice at the end?

Thank you very much for your detailed answers they are very helpful and I am learning so much - but I am afraid answers are just bringing more questions atm! Seems there is a lot more to cider making than the first thought!​


edit - forgot to say thanks for this link - is answering so many questions that I had not even come up with yet!


It's easy to tell which is which, taste them......don't get too caught up in technicalities, suck it and see. Go with some nice tasting eating apples that you'd happily put in your kids lunch box and then a few that you'd use for making an apple tart, not as many. Ferment it out, taking as much as you want from the article given. Easy, don't wreck your head about cider, it's easy to do and easy to get good results.

No traditional process will include campden, but then again neither will it include pitching yeast, relying on natural fermentation.
 
As well as variety, the ripeness of the apples is very important for cider. Let them ripen fully on the tree and you will get a lot more flavour than if you pick them too early.
Also the flavour will vary each season. Watching the cricket it seems you are having a very bad summer in England, your trees may have trouble getting fully ripe which may lead to lower alcohol.
 
As well as variety, the ripeness of the apples is very important for cider. Let them ripen fully on the tree and you will get a lot more flavour than if you pick them too early.
Also the flavour will vary each season. Watching the cricket it seems you are having a very bad summer in England, your trees may have trouble getting fully ripe which may lead to lower alcohol.
Hmm summer has been quite good for England really only a month of rain out of 2 months of summer :p Anyway today was nice so hopefully they will be very ripe soon :D

Also I think we are still winning the cricket? :p
 
Hmm summer has been quite good for England really only a month of rain out of 2 months of summer :p Anyway today was nice so hopefully they will be very ripe soon :D

Also I think we are still winning the cricket? :p

Yep that's like a great summer in this part of the world :)
 
I pressed the juice and it went great! Got 8 liters! Tastes very sweet and slightly tart...

I got a starting gravity of 1.035 despite it tasting really sweet - Surely this is wrong as it would mean I could only get alchol of 4% (granted what I want) but it tastes REALLY sweet.
 
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