Slight fruity taste in Pilsner?

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jackson_d

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First lager. Tried to control every aspect. Temp controlled fermentation chamber. Cooled wort to 55 before pitching 55deg starter. Stirplate starter for 4 days prior to pitching...

4 weeks fermentation with no more than 3 deg temp differential in either direction. 3 day diacetyl rest. Then kegged and lagered off gas the past 21 days. I know I still have 5 weeks to go, but a little taste tonight confirmed just a slight hint of fruit taste that was also present at the time of kegging 3 weeks ago.

What dont I know about lagering or this yeast strain at the temp i fermented at that would produce fruity taste? Or do i need to RDWHAHB until it is fully drinkable and gassed up in 5 more weeks?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts


Elevated Line Pilsner
Classic American Pilsner

Type: All Grain
Date: 12/12/2009
Batch Size: 10.00 gal
Brewer: Jackson
Boil Size: 11.25 gal Asst Brewer: Deez Nuts son
Boil Time: 60 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 84.00
Taste Notes: 1/6 1.013. still a thick layer of krausen in both primaries 25 days after brewing. 52 degrees ferment temp. diacetyl rest started 1/5 @ 55deg... 1/11 1.010 kegged and set for lagering.. very tasty but very cloudy. diacetyl rest knocked a few points off FG

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
1.00 lb Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 5.26 %
16.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 84.21 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 10.53 %
2.00 oz Hallertauer [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 15.6 IBU
2.00 oz Saaz [6.80 %] (30 min) Hops 18.2 IBU
2.00 oz Saaz [6.80 %] (5 min) Hops 4.7 IBU
0.50 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2 Pkgs Pilsner Lager (White Labs #WLP800) Yeast-Lager



Beer Profile

Measured Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.87 %
Bitterness: 38.5 IBU Calories: 243 cal/pint
Est Color: 4.5 SRM


Mash Profile

Mash Name: My Mash Total Grain Weight: 19.00 lb
Sparge Water: 7.59 gal (1.25g/# grain)
My Mash
90 min Step Add 23.75 qt of water 149.0 F mash temp
 
Your fermentation temp is on the high end, so that could have given you a few more esters. Also, at what temp did your starter ferment? If you fermented it at room temp and then pitched the whole thing w/o decanting, it could also add some fruitiness.

Also, I can't say whether or not this contributed to your issue, but 4 weeks is a long primary for lagers IMO. Noonan recommends getting lagers off the yeast as soon as fermentation is finished due to the possibility of off-flavors from the yeast/sediment. I've transferred every lager at the 2 week mark, including diacetyl rest.

At any rate, by the time it's done lagering and carbonated, it may have smoothed out some and you could be pleasantly surprised.
 
thanks for the reply

I think i pitched the starter a little cold. maybe 49 or 50 deg.

the whole thing fermented a little hot for a few days before I realzied the temp controller would have to be set at 48 in order to keep the temp of the primaries at 52. so it may have been 56ish for the first 2-3 days. i now have converted a sanke keg to ferment lagers in, and it has a thermowell to put the temp controller probe in. 'exact' temp control shoundt be as much of an issue next time.

the reason i left it on the yeast for so long was becuase at 14 days, there was still a very thick layer of krausen. then at 21 days still a thick layer of krausen. then at 28 days still a thick layer of krausen. i thought it was still fermenting. i let it diacetyl rest 2-3 days at around 60deg, and that dropped the FG from 1.013 to 1.010 and it killed that krausen..

normally with my ales if i still see krausen, i let it sit on the yeast cake until the krausen is gone. in the future with my lagers, should i start diacetyl rest even if there is still krausen? i understand the slightly warmer temp will speed up the fermentation.. i have never done a lager so i guess thats why i figured i need to wait for the krausen to go away.

it does have a fantastic pilsner flavor, i think it will be very good. there is just this hint, just a pinch of flavor that is fruity in there. prob wont ruin the beer, but also would prob be better if it wasnt there..
 
Frankly I think a little fruit is fine. I'd probably call what you made a Bohemian Pils though. Saaz is also a floral hop so that's probably contributing to what you're calling fruity.
 
the reason i left it on the yeast for so long was becuase at 14 days, there was still a very thick layer of krausen. then at 21 days still a thick layer of krausen. then at 28 days still a thick layer of krausen. i thought it was still fermenting. i let it diacetyl rest 2-3 days at around 60deg, and that dropped the FG from 1.013 to 1.010 and it killed that krausen..

normally with my ales if i still see krausen, i let it sit on the yeast cake until the krausen is gone. in the future with my lagers, should i start diacetyl rest even if there is still krausen? i understand the slightly warmer temp will speed up the fermentation.. i have never done a lager so i guess thats why i figured i need to wait for the krausen to go away.

Fair enough... I've heard of lagers taking this long, but have not experienced it myself (and I've brewed a good amount of lagers). I've never had one not finish in 2 weeks. It sounds like you did well in your fermentation aside from the slightly high temp.

You could have hit your diacetyl rest a little earlier. You can start it when there is still a krausen. But it depends on the yeast and how fermentation has gone. If you know your yeast and your typical fermentation progress correlating wth the krausen, you can gauge the D-rest that way, but ideally you want to start the D-rest at about 75-80% of fermentation being complete. 6 points short of FG would be the text book point at which to start the D-rest.
 
i do have an oxygenation system now. with the red bottle of O2. and i'll start the starter a little earlier next time, give it a good 5-6 days on the stirplate..

i think i could have made a bit of a bigger starter too.

i just did 1 cup DME 4 cups water 2 vials WLP800. next time 1.5 cups DME 6 cups water 2 vials WLP800 and 5 days on stirplate

so bigger starter, extra day on stirplate, and pure O2 in the wort might help fermentation..

and I'll change the recipe to Bohemian, thanks. it is a pleasant hint of fruit taste too, just curious to see how it will play out in 4-5 more weeks when it lagered for 8 total.


thanks for the help

:mug:
 
Save yourself some money and step up your starters instead of buying double the yeast. :mug:
 
also, shouldn't lager starters be on the order of 1 gallon if possible? i know it depends on the gravity and such, but i always hear more yeast, more yeast on lagers. i bet that's what gave you the esters was underpitching on this one. and also, 24 hours before you pitch, cold crash that sucker and get whatever starter beer you can off the yeast.
 
All I can think of
1) Yeast contamination with different strain
2) Temp not controlled where you thought it was (thermometer/ thermostat)
3) Some problem with hops utilization (less IBU than you thought)
4) Mistakenly using a caramelized grain when you thought it was Munich.

For what its worth I like a little fruit in an otherwise austere lager.
 
I assume you decanted most of the liquid from the starter, after you cooled it down prior to pitching?
 
ok well i jumped the gun.

now that it has been on gas for 9 days

IT FREAKIN TASTES FANTASTIC

the slight bite of the carbonation has covered up most of the 'fruit' taste i was describing. and i think bobby_m was closest- it may have just been the floral-ness of all the saaz at the end of boil.

anyways i am super happy with my first lager, and as we all have discussed, there are a few things i can do diff next time to improve fermentation. so i am excited to try again maybe with just an extra 5 IBU somewhere since i like everything hoppy...

thanks again for all the thoughts

** now i am curious. it does taste wonderful now. but it also gives me the impression that a little bit more cold aging wouldnt hurt. it is supposed to sit for 4 more weeks to get to a total of 8 weeks of lagering.

does every pilsner need 8 weeks of lagering? how do you know? is it a kind of 'rule of thumb' thing? is it lager style specific? do some need more time than others?

it is still a bit hazy, but isnt that semi typical for pilsners? some of them are always hazy, right? so how do i know if i do need to lager for 8 weeks?

keep in mind its in my keezer on gas now and the temp of the keezer is about 41. so not quite as cold as lagering prefers...

thanks in advance again

:mug:
 
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