Pale Stout?

So there's black IPAs and schwartzbiers, is it at all possible going the opposite way and making a pale stout or a "white" porter? Are there grains that provide the roasty flavors that do not impart the darker coloring?

I know some people cold steep darker malts to get the color without the flavor- could you maybe cold steep the grains, pitch the colored water, and then steep the grains, hopefully getting the flavor, minus the color? That would be a mind game, that's for sure.

I will definitely try this out on a very small scale. Thanks for the idea!

Definitely let me know how it turns out!

Barrooze- any chance you've given this a try?

jamesnsw said:

Barrooze- any chance you've given this a try?

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Not yet, but I think I'll be heading to my LHBS this week for a planned brew on Saturday. I'll pick up some toasty/roasty grains then and run some tests.

I'll try out the cold steeping and late mashing, but what I think will work best is mashing unmilled grain. Here're my thoughts: carafa special is huskless grain that gives color and no/little roasty. I want the opposite (roasty and little color). So how do I JUST get the husks (as it seems they hold those flavors)? I was thinking just using unmilled grain may give closer to the desired results. I
Was also thinking a short, hot mash may impart the least amount of color.

What do you guys think about those theories? I'll let you know what I find! Thanks for the interest!

I can't really see how it would work. The flavors are a by-product of the color. If you remove the color, you've stripped the bits that were actually roasted, which is where the flavor comes from.

indigi said:

I can't really see how it would work. The flavors are a by-product of the color. If you remove the color, you've stripped the bits that were actually roasted, which is where the flavor comes from.

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This is kind of my worry as well. But then, why does it work to cold soak dark grains to get the color without the flavor?

I'm also assuming that the cold soak wouldn't remove all of the color- so you're more likely to get a brown beer, not a blonde beer.

I imagine much of the color is in the husk. Maybe find a way to dehusk the grains after roasting? Then you could hopefully have roasty flavored grain innards to add flavor and sugar to your brew.

This could be a good idea, or a horrible idea, but what if you looked at things other than roasted barley to give you that bitter (roasted bitter, not hop bitter) flavor. I honestly see no way that you can use roasted grains and get the flavor without the color. So, what if you used something like black tea to give you that astringency. Maybe tea bags in the mash? When you think about what a cup of tea tastes like (without sweetener) it really has an astringent bite, but does not have a ton of color. However, I am not sure how many bags you would need to use to impart the flavor you are looking for.

Again, I would use a very small batch for experimenting with this.

I'm of the opinion that you won't be getting any roasty flavors without the color tagging along as well. My understanding is that the color and roasty flavor comes from the slight caramelization of the sugars. Extracting any flavor from the grain will also result with extracting that color as well.

However I, too, have been putting together a recipe for a pale stout. I'm going a different direction than you are barrooze. Instead of getting the roasty flavor from the grains, I plan to use spices to impart the roasty nuttiness. I've accidentally made a overspiced pumpkin beer that mellowed out quite nicely. It contained zero roasted barley. However after submitting it for competition, none of the certified judges thought it was spiced at all! They all believed I used roasted barley. Of course my score suffered since it wasn't to style but it got me thinking.

If I could duplicate that roasted flavor using only spices and use a light grain bill to impart more body to the beer then I should be getting something close to a pale stout. I'm doing a series of experiments with 2 gallon batches and hopefully I can fine tune a recipe. I fully expect to do dozens of experimental batches over the course of a year or more. I will be posting my detailed results whenever I succeed.

What about liquid smoke?

str8wire said:

What about liquid smoke?

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That seems to me to be a very different taste, more smoky than roasty.

I hate it...but I wonder if in small doses it could be useful

I'm always a fan of experimenting, but what are you trying to accomplish? If you want a blonde ale with roasty flavor, why does it matter if its a little darker than normal? A black IPA is what it is because its an IPA with a touch of roastiness in it, not because its black. An IPA with black food coloring wouldn't really make it a black IPA, its the flavor that makes it a black IPA. Correct me if I'm wrong tho, because I've only tried 3 black IPA's so far and all of them have been not a far walk from a stout, so I had a hard time considering them an IPA.

If I were going to try it, for the sake of trying it, I'd probably use pale malts, flaked barley and carapils to give it some stout-like body. Then before bottling use a coffee extract for a roastiness, a bit of chocolate extract for flavoring, and a touch of splenda to enhance body even more and add a touch of sweetness, or not if you want a dryer stout. But with all that extra junk thats not a 'natural' way to make beer, I wouldn't really care to serve it.

the cold water soak thing might help lighten the final product. but i still think you would end up with a some what dark beer. i think the key would be to think of something to add that wont add much color like jfowler said. i don't know about tea though. maybe some kind of coffee extract? if you could dilute it enough to where the color was light but still get that roasted flavor maybe? just a thought. but i'm sure there are other good/better ones. let me know if you figure something out. i would love to try this!

For me, the whole point of trying to make a pale stout is to simply see if it's possible. It's something new and exciting that I don't think anyone has done before. This is pioneering work, to boldly go where no one has gone before!

Bluegrass Brewing Company has made a "white" porter called Melby Dick. I've never had it though so I can't say how light or porter-like it is. I got this from http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/395/55655

"Call me Ishmael. An original experimental beer from BBC. The idea spawned from a growing trend in the rest of the brewing community making out of style traditionally brewed beers. Other, dare I say, less original breweries, have caught on to the old making a light beer style dark game. They are making Black Bitters, Black IPA's, heck we even made a Dark Pilsner. But that is easy, all you have to do is throw in some dark roasted barley into your "regular" light colored beer recipe and viola dark or black "whatever". The real challenge is to make a dark beer light, and that my friends, is exactly what we have done. You may ask how would you accomplish such a monumental feat, bleach,didi 7,Oxyclean? No on all counts. We had to use a little creativity and some ingenuity. Think about what flavors are in a porter. Caramel malt sweetness, chocolatly and roasty flavors, and even some notes of dark fruit all these are gleaned from a dark roasted barley malt. So we took out all the dark malt and recreated all the flavors with lighter ingredients. We used a combination of lightly kilned barley, French Avo matte, caramel pilsner and Canadian honey malt to give a caramel malt sweetness. We pureed and added golden raisins to lend some notes of dark fruit. We then added roasted chocolate nibs in both the whirlpool and conditioning tank to give a chocolatey flavor and aroma. And finally a touch of brewed espresso from Heine Brothers to lend a bit of roastiness."

jamesnsw said:

This is kind of my worry as well. But then, why does it work to cold soak dark grains to get the color without the flavor?

I'm also assuming that the cold soak wouldn't remove all of the color- so you're more likely to get a brown beer, not a blonde beer.

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A cold soak won't gelatinize any starch, protein, or sugars, so you'll get very little of the flavor-bearing particles out of the grains.

hotbrew said:

For me, the whole point of trying to make a pale stout is to simply see if it's possible. It's something new and exciting that I don't think anyone has done before. This is pioneering work, to boldly go where no one has gone before!

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I was just reading up on Pale Stouts tonight, and learned that they've actually been around for a long time, since long before 'stout' was associated purely with the modern, thick, dark understanding of it.

Used to be, 'Stout' was a term used to describe the strength of a beer, a 'Stout' being just a higher-ABV version of a Porter. Pale stouts were simply strong beers made exclusively with pale malts.

The recipe I'm going to try out in a couple months is 64% Maris Otter, 16% Crystal 30L, 8% Flaked Oats for the stout mouthfeel, and 4% Honey Malt for a bit of color and flavor. A pound of brown sugar to push the ABV up into Stout territory, a mild flavor and aroma hop schedule, and some Scottish Ale yeast. I have high hopes for it!

Do they make a white coffee bean? Also maybe roast some actual nuts and add them to a pale ale to get some roast and nut character?

This is an old thread but still popped up on my new posts tab... Last month's issue of BeerAdvocate Magazine had an article on White Stouts, written by Drew Beechum. He talks about how Stout originally meant strong and that u don't need that dark coloring to make it work. If anyone is still interested in the recipe its....

14lb Marris Otter
1 lb flaked oats
1 lb flaked barley
0.5 lb crystal 40L

Single Infusion Mash - 154 degrees for 60 minutes

Your then given the option for a "Mocha" flavoring addition , or just a full hops version. Full hops recipe uses 1 oz of Magnum (14%) for 60 minutes and 1 oz Crystal (3.5%) for ten minutes. If ur going with the Mocha, use only a half oz of Magnum and leave out the Crystal and then add 3 oz cacao extract (2 oz cacao nibs soacked in 6 oz vodka for 4 days, freezed and had the fat cap removed) and 1 pint of cold brewed coffee extract (1 cup ground coffee soaked overnight in 3 cups water).

Yeast he recommends Wyeast 1318 London Ale III


I think this looks like a pretty interesting and simple recipe and im thinking of giving it a go in a few months.

Accidental repost sorry!

This looks good. I'm interested in knowing how this comes out. Keep us posted @chuckstout.

Ok, I gave this a little thought and this is what I came up with I want to stay below 6 srm. I think I may give this a go hopefully before february, sounds fun at least ok heres what I got so far
White Coffee Stout
6lbs 2row
3lbs white wheat
1lb Flaked Barley
1lb Carapils
1lb Macadamian Nuts roasted (mash) and crushed 10L
.5lb rice hulls
.5lb milk sugar
1oz CTZ 40min
White Coffee beans steeped before chilling then strained out
Ferment with Amer.II 1272

5.5G 1.060-1.065sg Mash 156 est. 5srm est.1.016fg

Let me now if can add or sub from this recipe

Just read an article in Beer Advocate about "White Stouts". Issue #70 I believe.

The article was pretty interesting. In summary they said the original meaning of stout was "strong" and that has been lost over the years since most people associate stout with blackness, coffee, and chocolate.

It also said there are two approaches, either a strong, full bodied IPA or a pale stout featuring something like cacao and licorice to make it taste more like a true stout.

Here is the recipe they recommended (note the first hop amount will yield a more IPA like beer, the second will yield a more traditional bitterness):

Reclamation White/Mocha Stout
5.5 gallons at 1.078 OG, 57/30 IBUs

14 lb Maris Otter
1 lb Flaked Oats
1 lb Flaked Barley
0.5 lb Crystal 40L

Mash at 154 for 60 minutes

1.0/0.5 oz Magnum 14% AA at 60 minutes
1.0/0 oz Crystal 3.5% AA at 10 minutes

For the mocha version:
3 oz cacao extract or 2oz cacao nibs soaked in 6 oz vodka for 4 days, strain, freeze, and remove fat cap

1 pint cold-brewed coffee extract or 1 cup ground coffee soaked overnight in 3 cups water

Enjoy!

I imagine that beer is going to be approching amber to brown in color. Can you get those flavors under 6 or 7 srm i think is the question

kaz4121 said:

Just read an article in Beer Advocate about "White Stouts". Issue #70 I believe.

The article was pretty interesting. In summary they said the original meaning of stout was "strong" and that has been lost over the years since most people associate stout with blackness, coffee, and chocolate.

It also said there are two approaches, either a strong, full bodied IPA or a pale stout featuring something like cacao and licorice to make it taste more like a true stout.

Here is the recipe they recommended (note the first hop amount will yield a more IPA like beer, the second will yield a more traditional bitterness):

Reclamation White/Mocha Stout
5.5 gallons at 1.078 OG, 57/30 IBUs

14 lb Maris Otter
1 lb Flaked Oats
1 lb Flaked Barley
0.5 lb Crystal 40L

Mash at 154 for 60 minutes

1.0/0.5 oz Magnum 14% AA at 60 minutes
1.0/0 oz Crystal 3.5% AA at 10 minutes

For the mocha version:
3 oz cacao extract or 2oz cacao nibs soaked in 6 oz vodka for 4 days, strain, freeze, and remove fat cap

1 pint cold-brewed coffee extract or 1 cup ground coffee soaked overnight in 3 cups water

Enjoy!

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Lol I just posted this a few spots up

Guys, obviously talking about historical stouts wasn't the purpose of this thread. As stated above, "stout" originally meant a stronger beer. In current terms, this is no longer the case. What I was originally asking about was if it was possible to get the roasted, chocolate flavors found in stouts and porters without the color they typically add.

I think we've all made a "pale stout" if you go off the original meaning of the term. I wanted to make something akin to a White Guinness. With that in mind, does anyone know if it's possible to get a hold of some of the husks for carafa? I know the DEhusked Carafa will give color without bitterness/astringency, what i want is the opposite. I want the bitterness and astringency without the color. I figure mashing the husks will give me that. Any ideas?

I don't believe the husk has any sort of nutrtional or flavor value... the sugar/starches are all inside where the husk covers that part.

My bad for the redundant post earlier, guess I should actually read a whole thread before posting!

Barooze,
How about putting some rice hulls in your oven at 500 degrees or so until the fire department shows up at your door?

The reason people cold steep the dark grains isn't to get color without flavor. Its because during the kilning process, the grain has already been "converted." Or, probably better put, there is nothing to convert in those grains. So putting them in the mash isn't needed for conversion.

When you put them in the mash, though, it can have effects on the mash pH. When the mash pH is out of wack, you can get off flavors like tannins.

Steeping eliminates this risk. Or thats how I understand it. If you think about it, this is how you use crystal/roast malt in extract batches. Its just doing the same thing for all-grain.

Sounds like Crystal Pepsi to me

Riffing on the burned rice hulls thing - what about burning/roasting barley at very high temp, such that the hull is reduced to ash before the whole grain is burned?

This theory is based on making campfire corn-on-the-cob. The husk burns to ash on the first few layers, gets black and roasted underneath, and the corn is left slightly carmelized and delicious.

I might have to try this out - make a few ounces, enough to make a 1 gallon test batch.

I think the idea of a pale stout is kinda awesome - and the idea of making it roasty-and not black/dark...a challenge.

barrooze said:

Guys, obviously talking about historical stouts wasn't the purpose of this thread. As stated above, "stout" originally meant a stronger beer. In current terms, this is no longer the case. What I was originally asking about was if it was possible to get the roasted, chocolate flavors found in stouts and porters without the color they typically add.

I think we've all made a "pale stout" if you go off the original meaning of the term. I wanted to make something akin to a White Guinness. With that in mind, does anyone know if it's possible to get a hold of some of the husks for carafa? I know the DEhusked Carafa will give color without bitterness/astringency, what i want is the opposite. I want the bitterness and astringency without the color. I figure mashing the husks will give me that. Any ideas?

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Have you tried contacting the company(maltster) who makes the dehusked carafa and ask for the husks.

TwoGunz said:

Sounds like Crystal Pepsi to me

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Wow, remember that shiz. Didn't they find dirty needles in that or something?

TwoGunz said:

Sounds like Crystal Pepsi to me

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Or Miller Clear.

Well, I tasted my first go at a "Pale Stout" today! The recipe was heavy on the Maris Otter, included some toasted Flaked Barley, flaked Oats and some Crystal 30L. There was also a pound of dark brown sugar. What I was going for was just a pale ale with the strength of a stout, and a little bit of the roasted flavor of the dark stouts.

Now that I've tasted it, I think I got the ABV about right (6%!), but the flavor is nothing like a dark stout, really. It's much lighter and fruitier, much more like a really decent ESB, which I'm perfectly fine with. I can see now that the target I was aiming at was much more in line with that style to begin with.

November said:

Or Miller Clear.

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now THAT's redundant