Full Boil extract vs. All Grain?

newb here who recently went from partial boil extract to full boil extract and the difference has been amazing

Now I've heard the all grain brewers saying "all grain or nothing!" as the beer is just so much better, and I've also heard the extract brewers with claims stating that you can make just as good of beer with extract as you can with all grain, which got me thinking.....

Now I'm not looking for a debate on Extract vs. All Grain, what I am curious to know, is how many of you all grain brewers were doing full boils before moving into all grain, and if you were doing full boils, was the difference very noticeable?

I'm curious as I'm not sure it's possible to get much better than my full boils, the last couple I brewed up were on par with most of the craft beers I've found(opinion...I know), while my partial boils have all been "OK". I won't be moving to all grain for a while as I don't have the money or space right now, but I'm just curious about the statistics around the full boil to all grain to satisfy my curiosity.

I never did full boil extract batches. My extract beers were still quite tasty, some styles did better for me than others. IMO all-grain beer makes better beer. The beer is probably not inherently better than extract beers, a judge would probably not taste the difference between a *well made extract beer or a *well made all-grain batch. What is superior is the experience of an all-grain beer. Also, I can make a 100% Munich Malt beer, I can mash hop, or first wort hop (I'm sure there is a reasonably effective way for extract brewers to simulate this). The joy and the flexibility that are available from all-grain brewing are the only two distinctions that make it superior to extract brewing in my mind. If you are happy with extract brewing then enjoy, but if you want to experiment with as many factors as possible then I strongly suggest you jump in. Next thing you know you will have a fridge full of yeast, a freezer full of hops and grain hiding everywhere SWMBO will allow.

I only brewed about 4 extract batches before jumping into all-grain a few years back. I remember my extract beers tasting good. You can definitely make a great beer with either method, but just as previously stated, you control everything when brewing all grain. It is an investment to go all-grain and it seems that I always am spending more and more money and building/creating new equipment but it is what I enjoy and I consider everything an investment.

With that said and to answer your question, I think an all-grain beer will taste slightly better and maybe a little fresher but other than that you can still (and sounds like you are) make great beers.

Also, I think that the per batch cost of all-grain is slightly cheaper. The cost of grains is far less than the cost of extract. So if you go all-grain yea you will need to spend some money upfront but over time you will get that money back and I believe that the knowledge and respect of the process you will gain will be worth it.

bbrim said:

Next thing you know you will have a fridge full of yeast, a freezer full of hops and grain hiding everywhere SWMBO will allow.

Click to expand...

HAHA SO TRUE. 1 whole shelf of my freezer is full of hops, 1 drawer in my fridge has vials of white labs and I am afraid to put to much next to it and I have about 10 Homer buckets and 10 3 gallon buckets full of grain in my garage. But I wouldn't have it any other way!!!! I have 3 temp controlled chest freezers in my garage as well: 1 for temp-controlled fermentation, 1 for storage of full kegs, and 1 with 2 double towers. Cheers

At some point I will be going all grain, but at the moment I'm paying for a wedding and live in a town home with limited space for freezers, fridges, and other large equipment, and my extracts have been coming out great recently too

I was really more just curious as to what sort of improvements I would see, if any, when I eventually do make the switch as it seems from most of the posts I've read that people would try a couple batches on the stove and then jump into all grain.

You're also right about the cost of batches, Yoopers 60min DFH clone I just brewed was twice as expensive as the all grain version, but unfotunatley my journey into all grain will likely be delayed until I move into a home with more extra space.

I have not tried going all grain, maybe in the future I will, but the thing that has been limiting me is kids... All grain I feel would take me 5 -6 hours start to finish. I have gotten my extract batches to about 2.5 hours from start to finish. That to me makes extract worth the effort.

I have to admit when i first started brewing i wasn't that impressed with what I was making, but the biggest difference I have seen so far is going from a partial boil to a full boil.

In my experience:

Extract->Partial Mash is a medium jump, but it allows a ton of flexibility--there are tons of grains you can't use at all in an extract brew.

Partial boil -> full boil is a medium jump. It doesn't allow anything you couldn't otherwise do, but it's just as big for baseline taste as extract->partial mash.

Partial mash->full mash is a very, very small jump taste-wise.

To me, going from a full-boil partial mash to a full-boil all-grain isn't hugely different taste-wise--it has _some_ effect, but much smaller than going from all-extract to partial mash or from partial boil to full boil. And going from all-extract to partial mash is hugely important, because not only do you get fresh grain flavors in there, but you open up a whole ton of opportunities that aren't available in pure extract brews.

At the same time, there are plenty of partial-boil extract brewers who make award-winning beers; there's certainly a level of unwarranted bigotry in the home-brew world about extract brewing. There's room for every style (if you take pride in your brewing) to make really great beers.

I did a couple of full boil extracts and AG has been better for me, but I attribute some of that to just plain knowing more and making other adjustments. With extract, you are limited in a certain degree, by the maltsters who made the extract. Partial Mash can help the flavor a lot.

I think that using extract is a great way to brew if you are careful about making it the best you can. AG just allows for more flexibility, and it's more fun IMO.

I too did full boil for both extracts and AG. I still far prefer AG. To test the theory, I made an extract batch a little while back, after having done a bunch of AGs....definitely prefer AG.

I think some of the improvement in the full boils/AG brewing also has to do with improved techniques. As you progress into brewing, generally you pay more attention to temperature control and yeast pitching rates. That improves the beer, too, so it's hard to say which technique actually is the major improvement, if that makes sense.

I think of brewing as making spaghetti sauce, in a way.

Canned extract (no boil kit) = canned sauce

Extract w/ steeping grains= High quality jar sauce

PM= canned tomatoes, canned tomato sauce, some seasoning, onions, etc.

Full boil= fresh seasonings, onions, garlic, meat, etc

AG= fresh tomatoes, fresh seasonings, etc.

Any one of those things can be made well, and any one can be made poorly. But nothing wrong with any of them. If you're about convenience and quality, you can pick the technique that works for you. Not all AG beers are better than extract, that's for sure. I've had some terrible AG beers. I would say that ALL the no-boil kits I've sampled have been lacking, though. Sure, "good enough" to drink but certainly not as good as a commercial craft beer.

I think some of the improvement in the full boils/AG brewing also has to do with improved techniques. As you progress into brewing, generally you pay more attention to temperature control and yeast pitching rates. That improves the beer, too, so it's hard to say which technique actually is the major improvement, if that makes sense.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was going to say. I did partial boil extracts, jumped to full boil extracts and then to All-Grain full boil...Each step got better and better. I've not made an extract batch that tasted as good as any of my all grain batches, but I don't doubt that it's possible. And my beer knowledge jumped every step of the way so I can't say that this isn't the reason.

As for the "I don't have money or space" excuse as I call it lol...I live in a 765 sq. ft. apartment. I do all grain and have two 5 cu. ft. fermentation freezers. Where there is a will there is a way. All fits in my kitchen. And as for AG costing too much to get into...from my experience AG is much cheaper (easily $20 or less per 5 gal. batch). For the price of a couple extract batches a person could easily go AG. The equipment pays for itself over time.

That said. You enjoy the brew you make. That's great and you can do it any way you like! Full boil beats partial boil in any method as far as I see it.

TheMan said:

As for the "I don't have money or space" excuse as I call it lol...I live in a 765 sq. ft. apartment.

Click to expand...

I'll agree with this if I were single and living in my own apartment again, that would probably be the case:rockin: However I must keep the little lady happy as well, and packing a keezer into my kitchen right now probably wouldn't go over so well. Plus while I have a good sized townhome, I have 2 people + 2 dogs living here and also some other hobbies that take a bit of spacae(eg: the 3 motorcycles out in the garage, carefully parked along the edges around our cars).

And the money thing is an issue, because when I decide to take that next step it's all in or nothing, which will probably result in several hundred dollars going into an all grain brew setup, and unfortunately that's just not an option right now

Thanks for all the input from everyone, and I think you might all be onto something that it's probably more just experience that improves the beers than the actual all grain or extract piece. Every brew I've made thus far has been better than the last

With everything I have gathered, All grain can be better because you get complete control. If you use extract, you are stuck with whatever grains the manufacturer used and also their ratios. Your only variables are steeping grains and type of extract (very few of them)
Extract can make amazing beer, but you just don't have the total versatility that you have with all grain. One all grain recipe can change dramatically just from changing your mash a few degrees.

You can make some tasty cookies from store bought cookie mix, but if you do it from scratch, you can do anything you want.

As I stated before, it is not really an AG vs Extract issue for me. I feel I could invest in the equipment to do AG and definately have the space, but its the additional time involvement for AG. Opportunity costs as I call them. SWMBO would not be excited if I had to devote a whole day to brewing beer.

Tlylebrew said:

As I stated before, it is not really an AG vs Extract issue for me. I feel I could invest in the equipment to do AG and definately have the space, but its the additional time involvement for AG. Opportunity costs as I call them. SWMBO would not be excited if I had to devote a whole day to brewing beer.

Click to expand...

It definitely is a difference. I take about four hours to brew an extract batch, from hauling the gear downstairs to the point I'm packing it away again. If I do a stove top partial it ads another hour to the process. So far, it seems the all grain process adds an additional hour on top of that. If I have a day to do it, I'll definitely do an all grain, but sometimes it's easier, especially with the kids running around, to do an extract batch. Heck, I still do Coopers kits every now and then. Guess what, I drink them and I like them!

Also, just to note one thing here, the thing that made the BIGGEST difference in the quality of my beers was fermentation control. I see all these debates about extract vs. all grain and a lot of posturing about why one way is better than another, but, to me, fermentation control was massive.

Don't late the extract haters get you down. You can make an extract beer taste like a donkey's taint, but you can probably try your hand at an AG beer and double the donkey taintness if you don't know what you're doing.

Like Yoop said, it's usually more of an issue about your process than it is anything else. Most brewers start out an pure partial boil extract, and probably make a number of mistakes along the way that make the beer less than perfect. The natural progression is to then get a few of those under your belt before going to full boil extract or partial mash recipes. By then, you usually have enough experience and attention to detail that you don't make some of the critical errors that you may have made previously that caused your beer to taste like a musty donkey taint.

This doesn't mean you can do everything you ever wanted with beer by just using extract, or that you have to absolutely go to all grain, but it's really about the ingredients you put in and the process you use. You can make good or bad beer with any of the methods. In the end, certain styles, having more control, and just getting more out of the hobby is a reason to switch to grain. But don't let anyone tell you that you can't brew a good extract or partial mash.

Shooter said:

It definitely is a difference. I take about four hours to brew an extract batch, from hauling the gear downstairs to the point I'm packing it away again. If I do a stove top partial it ads another hour to the process. So far, it seems the all grain process adds an additional hour on top of that. If I have a day to do it, I'll definitely do an all grain, but sometimes it's easier, especially with the kids running around, to do an extract batch. Heck, I still do Coopers kits every now and then. Guess what, I drink them and I like them!

Also, just to note one thing here, the thing that made the BIGGEST difference in the quality of my beers was fermentation control. I see all these debates about extract vs. all grain and a lot of posturing about why one way is better than another, but, to me, fermentation control was massive.

Click to expand...

From what I have done, about 25 5 gallon batches, if you do it "right", still, the biggest factor for newbies or anyone is consistent fermentation temps. Yes I have done all grain and partial mash but even still I know if I did the extract beers at the correct ferment temps they would be spot on. It is all about consistent and correct temps, I think on the low side of the suggested temp range for the particular yeast.

Tlylebrew said:

As I stated before, it is not really an AG vs Extract issue for me. I feel I could invest in the equipment to do AG and definately have the space, but its the additional time involvement for AG. Opportunity costs as I call them. SWMBO would not be excited if I had to devote a whole day to brewing beer.

Click to expand...

FWIW, doing all-grain with brew-in-a-bag only takes about 1/2 hour longer than doing an extract batch with specialty grains (your mash is basically like a specialty steep, only temperature control is more important and it takes an hour instead of 30 minutes), and the extra equipment needed is minimal.

I finally picked up Brewing Classic Styles yesterday and one of the topics discussed is recipe development for a partial boil. I assumed late extract additions were a way to keep malliard reactions down so the wort doesn't darken. However, Jamil and John explain that you want to keep the partial boil gravity the same as a full boil so you have to break the extract down to the same portion of water and anything the steeping grains contribute. Keeping the partial boil gravity the same ensures the hop utilization remains the same as the full boil potential.

It's these types of techniques that are lost on most new extract brewers like myself that just dump and boil without consideration for all the chemical reactions taking place. I think learning these important techniques along the way is what allows extract (full or partial boil) to create great beer.

Don't forget to check whether the kit/recipe you are using assumes that you are doing a partial boil with the full extract addition and proportions the hops accordingly. If that is the case and you dump the specified amount of hops into your partial boil with only some of the extract then you end up with more hops utilization than the recipe intended, right?

For me, it's an issue of time. Extract takes about 4 hours from start to finish, and if I do it later in the day on a weekend it's not a big deal. However, adding a few hours on top of that would take up my entire day. Since I love to go out on the weekends and I spend time with my girlfriend, time is a bit limited. If I was single and unemployed, I'd be brewing all grain at least once a week.

Also, like others have said don't let people discourage you from brewing with extract. I've learned that late additions and using ONLY DME can create some awesome beer that can rival great microbrews.

AG = flexibility and more control over the process.

AG also = more things you can screw up, more money spent on equipment, more time every brew day.

AG does not necessarily = better taste, especially for straightforward styles that don't rely much on malt character.

However, AG = way more fun.

BlueSunshine said:

For me, it's an issue of time. Extract takes about 4 hours from start to finish, and if I do it later in the day on a weekend it's not a big deal. However, adding a few hours on top of that would take up my entire day. Since I love to go out on the weekends and I spend time with my girlfriend, time is a bit limited

Click to expand...

FWIW, I just did an all-grain batch. At 11:02am I headed downstairs to start grabbing my equipment to haul out to the backyard. The airlock was in the primary back in my basement at 3:38pm. That's 4 1/2 hours plus a few minutes. It was a 75 minute mash, so most brew days would be 15 minutes shorter.

I wasn't trying to be particularly fast about anything, but the grain was already crushed.

I am a noob extract brewer with only 6 batches to-date. I brewed an extract stout that I would put up against any commercial stout. Got the recipe from this site. So...If I can brew a great extract beer, anyone can.

Now, will I go AG in the future - sure! This is my hobby and I want to try new things and continue to improve. Right now though, it is all about understanding the process and what things actually contribute to a better beer.

YooperBrew said:

What is your point?

Click to expand...

I was wondering the same thing myself. I never implied that all grain would be that much harder to brew than an extract, as far as I can tell it just requires some extra equipment, space to store said equipment, and time.

Just to remind everyone, this thread was not started to ignite an all grain vs. extract debate. I was just curious about how many folks saw huge improvements in moving to all grain batches from partial boil extract as opposed to those using full boil extracts and then moving to all grain improvements.

From what I have gathered thus far, full boil extract only has the limitation of what is used to make the extract I use. I would have more control over the beer using all grain, but if I were brewing an all grain using the same grains used to make a bag of DME, there shouldn't be any real noticeable difference between the extract or all grain version of the same recipe. So from a quality difference there's no real discernible difference, it's just a matter of how much control I have over the malt flavors of my beer.

Oh, and if we exclude the price of additional equipment and time spent brewing, all grain is cheaper than extract brewing.

Marsdude said:

I am a noob extract brewer with only 6 batches to-date. I brewed an extract stout that I would put up against any commercial stout. Got the recipe from this site.

Click to expand...

I agree with this 100%; great beers can definitely be made from extract. There are some that would be tricky--e.g. a rye, which needs at least a partial mash until someone makes rye DME--but for most beer styles extract is a completely reasonable approach.

I'm just trying to point out that if you want to try all-grain (for the occasional brew that uses odd grains needing mash, for monetary reasons, or just to do it for its own sake) you don't need an expensive 3-vessel setup, and it doesn't have to take much longer than a typical extract brew-day.

I'm also not knocking those who want a 3-vessel multi-step setup; complicated mash schedules are much more viable in such a setup, and certainly have their place too!

YooperBrew said:

I think some of the improvement in the full boils/AG brewing also has to do with improved techniques. As you progress into brewing, generally you pay more attention to temperature control and yeast pitching rates. That improves the beer, too, so it's hard to say which technique actually is the major improvement, if that makes sense.

Click to expand...

I went from kits to full boils and have now done 2 AG batches. I agree 100% with YooperBrew's statement above. But I would also say that beyond temperature control and yeast pitching rates I have improved in all areas including my timing, volumes, racking, and most importantly my patience. Add to that some improved equipment, most notably a wort chiller. So although my kit beers were very good, I think if I were to do another kit now that it would be even better than before.

I like the AG brewing more than the kits now just because the choice of beers to brew is virtually unlimited. Plus for me there is more of a sense of satisfaction and tradition while brewing. It does add about 2 hours to my brew schedule, but that is just 2 more hours I get to enjoy my new hobby.

I have never brewed extract, but I can tell you that one of the BEST HB beers I have ever had was an extract brewed by a HBT member and friend. You have a little more control over the ingredients when you do AG, but there is so much more to the quality of the beer than how you get the extract (in a can, or from a mash)

I vote, equally good beer, if you are doing everything else right. Slightly more control with AG as you can determine the makeup of your extract, not have to accept what the can gives you.

Cliff897 said:

That it ain't rocket science.
I am pretty sure I was clear on that.

Click to expand...

Well, the topic of the original poster was full boil extract vs. all-grain, and wondered if you had anything of value to add besides a smart-assed remark.

Here is his original post:
Full Boil extract vs. All Grain?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
newb here who recently went from partial boil extract to full boil extract and the difference has been amazing

Now I've heard the all grain brewers saying "all grain or nothing!" as the beer is just so much better, and I've also heard the extract brewers with claims stating that you can make just as good of beer with extract as you can with all grain, which got me thinking.....

Now I'm not looking for a debate on Extract vs. All Grain, what I am curious to know, is how many of you all grain brewers were doing full boils before moving into all grain, and if you were doing full boils, was the difference very noticeable?

I'm curious as I'm not sure it's possible to get much better than my full boils, the last couple I brewed up were on par with most of the craft beers I've found(opinion...I know), while my partial boils have all been "OK". I won't be moving to all grain for a while as I don't have the money or space right now, but I'm just curious about the statistics around the full boil to all grain to satisfy my curiosity.

___________________________________________________________________
I italicized his question, so we can address his specific question. I'm pretty sure he didn't ask if AG brewing was rocket science. But thank you for your minimal input into this thread, and taking it off-topic.

Trust me, I'm not a scientist but I can brew ok beer.

I have done all of the above, partial boil extract, full boil extract, and all grain. The biggest difference for me was none of those things.

In order, the biggest differences were as follows:
1. Temperature controlled fermentation. This is huge. It is the single biggest thing that changed my beer.
2. Proper yeast health. I use liquid yeasts for all of my beer (thought I use dry for some meads and wines). I then make a starter and pitch the proper amount of healthy, active yeast into my wort.
3. I built a chiller that I think had a nice effect on things.
4. Full boil.

I think that AG is great in that I can fine tune recipes a little more, but I would not hesitate to brew the occasional extract batch when I want a fast brew day.

One more point I will add is that you should make sure you get fresh extract. My LHBS does not stock this. I have them order new for me and it made a good difference.

J

well, to get back on topic here a bit... I hope to soon be doing full boils. I've gotten my 10G kettle, so now I'm just a wort chiller away

tom777 said:

well, to get back on topic here a bit... I hope to soon be doing full boils. I've gotten my 10G kettle, so now I'm just a wort chiller away

Click to expand...

Good luck!!! I saw a huge improvement with moving to full boils which is what put the question in my head that started this thread

Though make sure you are watching your fermentation temps too, that's another big one to making good beer as I've since been learning as well

dummkauf said:

Good luck!!! I saw a huge improvement with moving to full boils which is what put the question in my head that started this thread

Though make sure you are watching your fermentation temps too, that's another big one to making good beer as I've since been learning as well

Click to expand...

I've recently started using using a simple swamp cooler to keep my temps down. It seems it's not as cool as I thought in my downstairs utility room -- sometimes about 70-72F. Swapping ice bottles 2 or 3 times a day seems to keep the fermenter temps in the mid 60's.

Prior to this, I do think I've had a few batches with temps on the high side. So far, I'm happy with the batches done using the cooler.

I'm definitely looking forward to doing the full boils.