HR 5843 Personal Use Marijuana

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MikeFlynn74

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H.R. 5843, an "Act to Remove Federal Penalties for Personal Use of Marijuana by Responsible Adults," has been inroduced in the House of Representatives by Representatives Barney Frank and Ron Paul.

Would be very interesting to see a good valid arguement against this. But we all know where this is going.
 
MikeFlynn74 said:
H.R. 5843, an "Act to Remove Federal Penalties for Personal Use of Marijuana by Responsible Adults," has been inroduced in the House of Representatives by Representatives Barney Frank and Ron Paul.

Would be very interesting to see a good valid arguement against this. But we all know where this is going.
Imagine the tax possibilities.....

EDIT: If Marijuana was legal
 
MULE said:
Imagine the tax possibilities.....

EDIT: If Marijuana was legal


You know I was talking to a friend about this last night. leagilizing and taxing the crap out of pot could empty out our over crowded prisions of some non-violent criminals, and provide enough tax income to.... Oh I dont know.... Better fund our schools? Lower the personal income tax? Expand the immigration and naturilization service so it dosn't take someone 12 years to become a citizen leagaly? Provide healthcare to US citizens?
 
I just love that it's being spondered by BARNEY FREAKIN' FRANK and RON FREAKIN' PAUL. They don't get much more diametrically opposed that those two!
 
deathweed said:
Better fund our schools?

Our schools are funded just fine, they just don't know how to use it properly. We throw more and more money on schools every year and kids continue to do poorly. The Unions answer is MORE MONEY.

It's BS. In Europe, the money follows the student, so schools need to be competitive or the money leaves as goes the students.

Schools don't need more money, they just need to get rid of the NEA so incompetent teachers can be sacked and boated administrations can be trimmed.
 
While I like the idea of legalization and taxation - we've seen what they've done to tobacco.

Even if the government would legalize and tax the crap out of it - people would still find the cheaper alternative. The way the government would work, it would cost $45 a joint after taxes and surcharges and fees. Meanwhile, your local dealer can probably sell you a half Z for that price.

Of course, once the gov't sets a price, the dealers will probably up their prices too making it too expensive to smoke. :(
 
MikeFlynn74 said:
jezter thats a chance Im willing to take!
I see both sides of this one. Yes, I would like it to be legal so that I didn't have to meet someone at 2am in a dark parking lot and be fearful of the cops. I would like to take a drug test for work and not worry about pot being caught and me losing my job.

However, I'm also not looking forward to paying ungodly expensive rates for what really is a low class drug. I like smoke, it's good stuff - but if they end up making it so expensive that the people who currently smoke it can't afford it (let's just say it - in general it's the lower-middle class to poverty level that are the hefty percentage of smokers) - it isn't going to do any good.

I think that legalizing it will allow people like you, who CAN afford it, to smoke a few times - you'll likely get bored of it once it's legal and you'll stop. Meanwhile, your less than decent part of humanity will still be breaking into cars and houses to steal CDs and DVDs and selling them for drugs - the only difference is where they get them.

For legal marijuana to have a net positive effect, it needs to be easily accessible to the masses at a price that doesn't cause people to turn to drastic measures (steal, stop feeding their families) to support their smoking habit.
 
I'd like to see what a bottle of booze cost during prohibition. I would think cost will be dependant on supply and demand just like everything else.
 
A lot would depend on HOW marijuana was legalized - totally free market, or got-to-some-government-agency-to-pick-it-up legalized. Reasonably unregulated, I bet you'd see the market develop like the markets for tobacco or liquor, where you've got both the ultra-cheap, ultra-nasty stuff and really high-end product.

You've got to figure, too, that SOMEONE's making a huge profit on pot sales right now, probably not the street dealer but someone's making a lot of money. You figure there's a huge premium to be had because of the punishment if arrested and because of the artificial scarcity.

What the NEED to do is include it in the farm bill - how much would it help poor farmers up here in New England to be able to LEGALLY grow some pot on the side?
 
the_bird said:
A lot would depend on HOW marijuana was legalized - totally free market, or got-to-some-government-agency-to-pick-it-up legalized. Reasonably unregulated, I bet you'd see the market develop like the markets for tobacco or liquor, where you've got both the ultra-cheap, ultra-nasty stuff and really high-end product.

You've got to figure, too, that SOMEONE's making a huge profit on pot sales right now, probably not the street dealer but someone's making a lot of money. You figure there's a huge premium to be had because of the punishment if arrested and because of the artificial scarcity.

What the NEED to do is include it in the farm bill - how much would it help poor farmers up here in New England to be able to LEGALLY grow some pot on the side?

I agree, however I see problems with that - mainly theft. Farmers can grow what they can because stealing a potato or two isn't really viable since you can buy them for less than $1 at the store.

I see a lot of people sneaking into MJ farms at night stealing buds left and right.
 
I am all for decriminalization of marijuana even though I have never touched the stuff in my life; however, I don't think it stands a chance to pass.

Greg
 
Jezter

You really seem ultra paranoid about over paying than you do all the good that it would likely bring. Grow a plant or 2 in the house to support your habit when its legal.

I highly doubt pot smokers are the agressive thieves you make them out to be.
 
I'm poor, and I'm anti-government. :)

I'm sure that, to make money, home growing will still likely be illegal if a legalization act ever passes.

But mostly - I'm anti government. I think our elected reps have screwed the pooch so many times, that I can't honestly trust them to do this with any decency to the American people. It will likely benefit the rich at the expense of the poor, which I am personally against.

Aside from the availability standpoint, I don't necessarily see much in the way of positive benefits for the consumer. I see the government taxing the crap out of it to pay for what - the war on other drugs. We all like to assume that the money will go towards good things like schools or reducing other taxes - but the way our government runs - the new revenue stream would be spend on new programs that aren't necessary.
 
jezter6 said:
I see a lot of people sneaking into MJ farms at night stealing buds left and right.
Kind of like corn, green beans and hops. Sorry for the joke, I couldn't resist. :)
 
MULE said:
Kind of like corn, green beans and hops. Sorry for the joke, I couldn't resist. :)

Of course not. :cross:

However, as I stated above - nobody steals those items becaue they have extremely low value and are easy to get at low low value at the grocery store.

If weed was sold in an 8oz bag for $5 like pre-mixed salad - nobody would think twice. However, I personally doubt that it will be remotely that available/cheap under any US laws...
 
Am I the only one who gets a grin out of the oxymoron in the bill title?
Act to Remove Federal Penalties for Personal Use of Marijuana by Responsible Adults
Personally, I wish it were legalized. I gave it up in college after I figured out it made me dumber for several days after, but I don't see why people who want it should be denied. We spend way too much public money chasing the green demon away.
 
MikeFlynn74 said:
Jezter

You really seem ultra paranoid about over paying than you do all the good that it would likely bring. Grow a plant or 2 in the house to support your habit when its legal.

I highly doubt pot smokers are the agressive thieves you make them out to be.

Perhaps not the seasoned, middle aged guy who likes to spark it up but if you think that the high school kids wouldn't be staging elaborate late night raids on crops then you are kidding yourself.

They need to specifically legalize the rock salt defensive measure at the same time that they open up weed for farmers.
 
jds said:
Am I the only one who gets a grin out of the oxymoron in the bill title?

I don't get it. Are you saying to be an adult is to be irresponsible, or are you saying all pot use is irresponsible? Either way I can't say that I agree with you. There's no oxymoron there. Equating all use with abuse is a false dichotomy.
 
The natural answer to the theft issue is that if it's a problem, farmers will put up greenhouses that they can secure. I would imagine that any legalization would also be fairly highly regulated (well, maybe not, if Ron Paul is involved), potentially requiring that some security measures be implemented to keep it out of the hands of minors.

The market will figure all of that out. If it's legalized, kids won't have to break in any more than they need to break into a liquor store to get beer; just have someone's older brother pick you up some.
 
the_bird said:
If it's legalized, kids won't have to break in any more than they need to break into a liquor store to get beer; just have someone's older brother pick you up some.

For the 'finished goods' part of it - yeah. But brewers also don't have fields upon fields of cans of beer ripe for the picking. If beer DID work that way - kids would be sneaking into fields grabbing a 30 pack and partying their brains out.
 
OMG seriously what is your problem?

Legalize it- Hell its not stopping any of the kids from getting it today.
 
It's an issue that would need to be addressed, but it's workable. Hell, chain link fences and razor wire would work, too! Maybe keep some of those untrainable pit bulls with biting issues on premises ;)
 
MikeFlynn74 said:
OMG seriously what is your problem?

Legalize it- Hell its not stopping any of the kids from getting it today.

We just have different opinions on the idea. I support legalization, but I just don't trust our government in how they do it. Relax, smoke up a bowl or two, and realize we're both on the same side in the end, but we don't have to get into any fights over it. :mug:
 
Relax, smoke up a bowl or two, and realize we're both on the same side in the end, but we don't have to get into any fights over it

I dont care what they do- As long as I can without fear of the man ruining my life.

sigh... Personally they should only be allowed to legislate this type of stuff if they went through random weekly drug testing
 
One of the reasons that the early US government didn't try taxing marijuana is it is too easy to grow. I've got no problems with legalization and I suspect the marketing types will have no problem convincing people the brand-names are better. The one person I know that is using for medical reasons has trouble finding pot that works for him. Most growers try to maximize THC and it's some other chemical that he needs.
 
I actually think that legalizing it and allowing people to grow their own (which is easy enough) would help sink the market and annihilate the whole danger aspect of the drug dealing scene--in regards to pot that is.

If beer was as easy, plant some seeds and wait a couple weeks, then the cost of beer would be abysmal.
 
Klainmeister said:
I actually think that legalizing it and allowing people to grow their own (which is easy enough) would help sink the market and annihilate the whole danger aspect of the drug dealing scene--in regards to pot that is.

If beer was as easy, plant some seeds and wait a couple weeks, then the cost of beer would be abysmal.

Have you homegrown yourself? I've had many homegrown attempts, and let me tell you that I've only ever seen one person who can grow anything remotely good.
 
Klainmeister said:
If beer was as easy, plant some seeds and wait a couple weeks, then the cost of beer would be abysmal.

Ah, but it is just as easy as ordering supplies online.

EDIT: Making beer is fairly easy
 
It seems to me that legalization, even with heavy regulatory taxation, would drop the price. After all a big portion of the reason for the higher prices is that, in addition to all the production and transportation costs that even a legal product has, pot dealers also have to deal with covert security, product loss due to enforcement efforts and inefficient retail arrangements. One would think that once those expensive costs of doing black market business are removed by bringing the product into light, they'd be able to drop the price dramatically.

As for dealers continuing to sell because of the ease of grow operations, it seems to me that keeping the penalties high for 'unlicensed production, transport or sale' and offering opportunities for those large scale operators to move into legitimate enterprise would effectively cut off the blank market supply end and make the retail end risk/reward too heavily skewed. Of course, the small scale 'personal use' crowd would be there, just as there is with moonshine, but that's pretty much the case in almost every regulated field. The main thing is by legalizing and taxing the stuff, they are turning a cost center (costs of enforcement ops and housing convicts) into a revenue generator (via taxation). It also eliminates the violence associated with an underground, cash business and moves it into the well lit, violence free counter of your local retail store.

Also, I'm not sure how much of the current 'street' price of weed is related to scarcity. If it is hard to acquire it will be more expensive. Once large scale manufacturing is happening in the open, one would think that the scarcity issue would be corrected.



However, I don't know enough about the specifics of the economics surrounding black market weed to be certain that all my assumptions are valid.


Another thing: we might find it hard to get companies to take up weed as a product for a while as we've had almost 30 years of near Puritian attitudes about drugs (pre-Regan there were more than one mainstream polititian openly supporting legalization). It might take some time for large companies who have cultivated a 'drug free' image to come around and start production.
 
kornkob said:
It seems to me that legalization, even with heavy regulatory taxation, would drop the price. After all a big portion of the reason for the higher prices is that, in addition to all the production and transpotion costs that even a legal product has, pot dealers also have to deal with covert security, product loss due to enforcement efforts and inefficent retail arrangements. One would think that once those expensive costs of doing black market business are removed by bringing the product into light, they'd be able to drop the price dramatically.

As for dealers continuing to sell becasue fo the ease of grow operations, it seems to me that keeping the penalties high for 'unlicensed production, transport or sale' and offering opportunities for those large scale operators to move into legitimate enterprice woudl effectivley cut off the blank market supply end and make the retail end risk/reward too heavily skewed. Of course, the small scale 'personal use' crowd would be there, jsut as there is with mooshine, but that's pretty much the case in almost every regulated field. The main thing is by legalizing and taxing the stuff, they are turning a cost center (costs of enforcement ops and housing convicts) into a revenue generator (via taxation). It also elminates the violence assocaited with an underground, cash business and moves it into the well lit, violence free counter of your local retail store.

I was looking around at the medicinal Marijuana info, and found that it's going for roughly $60 per 1/8 oz, or $480 per oz. Last I knew, an ounce of decent black market was more than 50% less than that. Given that we have a government established current price for it, I highly doubt that mass legal pot would go for anything less than that - in spite of standard supply and demand pricing since it will be a government regulated item.

Call my crazy - but a good portion of America would not pay that price, and continue to use underground methods. The only other way to combat that, of course, is harsher drug sentencing which is the exacyt opposite of what some people are arguing that legalization would achieve.
 
jezter6 said:
I was looking around at the medicinal Marijuana info, and found that it's going for roughly $60 per 1/8 oz, or $480 per oz. Last I knew, an ounce of decent black market was more than 50% less than that. Given that we have a government established current price for it, I highly doubt that mass legal pot would go for anything less than that - in spite of standard supply and demand pricing since it will be a government regulated item.

Call my crazy - but a good portion of America would not pay that price, and continue to use underground methods. The only other way to combat that, of course, is harsher drug sentencing which is the exacyt opposite of what some people are arguing that legalization would achieve.

That's an artificially constrained market. I don't think you can reasonably use that as your basis for what the price might be in a free market.
 
the_bird said:
That's an artificially constrained market. I don't think you can reasonably use that as your basis for what the price might be in a free market.

It's a government price fixed market. Unless MJ is as freely distributed as cigarettes, which are heavily taxed as is, I don't see it being any cheaper.
 
Not the same thing at all--- that's medical weed which is handled differently than, say, tobacco is and certainly isn't being produced on a large scale.
 
It depends on what kind of market we're talking. If we're talking a fully free market - ie: anyone in the USA can start growing and selling weed, it will take a big price dip. That's assuming it's as legal as growing tomatos in the back yard.

If it's heavily regulated, we will pay based on a low supply of product heavily taxed with restrictions on harvest amounts and security procedures, etc, etc.

I don't see #1 happening ever. I see a #2 as a more likely possibility in the long-term future.
 
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