I'm Contemplating Decoction...

Okay...all's well. For now. Took 'er out of the lagerator, let the carboy temp rise to 62f, saw some signs of fermentation, put it back into the lagerator...now she's going strong at 54f.

Just curious how slowly you brought the decoc's up to a boil - how long did you draw it out?

I had to check "Other" Evan. Do decoction if you can and REALLY want to. That's what I'm waiting for. I don't want to ruin a brew by trying to do it in my cooler. So, if I ever have the ability, and I want to do it, I will. I don't think the difference will be big enough to matter.

landhoney said:

Just curious how slowly you brought the decoc's up to a boil - how long did you draw it out?

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Um, relatively slowly, just to avoid scorching. I just applied a low flame and assumed about 10 minutes for step-up time.

seefresh said:

I had to check "Other" Evan. Do decoction if you can and REALLY want to. That's what I'm waiting for. I don't want to ruin a brew by trying to do it in my cooler. So, if I ever have the ability, and I want to do it, I will. I don't think the difference will be big enough to matter.

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We'll see, I guess. I had the ability...and I just ended up watching the game on DVR, so it was no big deal. I was kind of concerned about the lack of complete conversion, but who knows...there were probably not too many of them left. I'm optimistic about the difference decoc will make, though. I've read plenty of testimonies singing its praises. Hopefully they're right. We'll find out in a few months...

I did my first decoction yesterday and it was a blast. I really think I might do this for every beer I mash out. I fallowed the maltose falcons brew club instructions and it turned out great. Very clear run off, extremely clean wort, tons of break in the kettle. I will keep trying this to already brewed beers to confirm, but right this second I am won over by 30 more minutes (I know we are all trying to shorten it) added to my brew-day looking like this.

If you decide against the decoction- and I'm not saying that you should- then I would do a 90 minute boil. It seems like that tends to add considerable maltiness to the beer without too much additional complexity. At least that's been my experience.

Evan! said:

Um, relatively slowly, just to avoid scorching. I just applied a low flame and assumed about 10 minutes for step-up time.

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You mean you brought it (the decoc/s) up to boiling in 10 minutes? In other words, ten minutes from flame on till boil?

landhoney said:

You mean you brought it (the decoc/s) up to boiling in 10 minutes? In other words, ten minutes from flame on till boil?

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Roughly, yeah...it was already starting out around 120f. So, yeah, 10 mins from 120 to 210.

EDIT: I mis-spoke. I was at 120 in the mash tun. I took about 1/3 of the mash and heated it to 158 in another kettle and rested to complete conversion. THEN I brought it to boiling. So I actually went from 158 to 210 in ~10 minutes.

I think I did that wrong.

First, I've read that you should try and pause at sac rest temps for ten minutes or so, to get some conversion out of the grains you are now going to be boiling. I flew right through these temps; the Banjo heats FAST. I thought I was right about at 150°, but I had so much carryover heat, it quickly shot into de-naturing terrirory.

I'm also pretty sure there's some other benefit I don't understand to the temperature rise being fairly gradual. I'm going to take it a bit easier next time.

I can't wait to get into the decocts you guys are talking about. I just used one for mash out and didn't pull anything but wort to boil, so I didn't need to wait through sac rests. I want to try the real decoctions like you guys on my bocks and other lagers now that I have the facilities to do them.

the_bird said:

I think I did that wrong.

First, I've read that you should try and pause at sac rest temps for ten minutes or so, to get some conversion out of the grains you are now going to be boiling. I flew right through these temps; the Banjo heats FAST. I thought I was right about at 150°, but I had so much carryover heat, it quickly shot into de-naturing terrirory.

I'm also pretty sure there's some other benefit I don't understand to the temperature rise being fairly gradual. I'm going to take it a bit easier next time.

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This is what I was driving at. I brought my decoc's up to boil in like 30min's b/c I was under the impression that you need to get conversion from all portions of the mash - or at least as much as possible. If you don't bring the mash up very slowly don't you risk getting terrible efficiency?

the_bird said:

I think I did that wrong.

First, I've read that you should try and pause at sac rest temps for ten minutes or so, to get some conversion out of the grains you are now going to be boiling. I flew right through these temps; the Banjo heats FAST. I thought I was right about at 150°, but I had so much carryover heat, it quickly shot into de-naturing terrirory.

I'm also pretty sure there's some other benefit I don't understand to the temperature rise being fairly gradual. I'm going to take it a bit easier next time.

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I keep mine at 155 for 15-20 min. From my understanding conversion is a must in decoction mashing. The reason you get away with boiling is because of the high concentration of sugars, ph as well.

landhoney said:

This is what I was driving at. I brought my decoc's up to boil in like 30min's b/c I was under the impression that you need to get conversion from all portions of the mash - or at least as much as possible. If you don't bring the mash up very slowly don't you risk getting terrible efficiency?

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Yeah, that's right. See my edit. I mis-spoke. I didn't take 30 minutes as you said, but I went quickly from 120 to 158, then rested there for 20 or 30 minutes to complete conversion, THEN brought it to boiling. You need conversion on those grains (it's 1/3 of your mash!!) or, as you noted, you've got to be risking terrible efficiency. As it stands, I ended up with 85%, which is roughly what I typically get with a regular stepped mash.

I don't think you risk getting ZERO conversion from those grains if you boil them without stopping for the sac rest, but it won't be as high. Remember, you're returning them to the main mash later on, at sac rest temps, and there's plenty of enzymes left in the main mash to do the work. The boiling process is also supposed to break up the starches more so that when the decoction is returned, there will be more conversion (which is why, I believe, efficiency is supposed to be higher with a decoction).

So, my understanding of the sac rest before bringing the thick mash up to boil is that it is strongly recommended, but not 100% critical.

the_bird said:

The boiling process is also supposed to break up the starches more so that when the decoction is returned, there will be more conversion (which is why, I believe, efficiency is supposed to be higher with a decoction).
So, my understanding of the sac rest before bringing the thick mash up to boil is that it is strongly recommended, but not 100% critical.

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That last part about breaking up the starches is interesting, I hadn't heard that. That would increase efficiency, but what about the great maltiness and mouthfeel decoc's produce - seems like a paradox. Not disagreeing though, the mysteries of decoction....

edit>Maybe that's why decoction can be so good. You're getting maltiness from a very fermentable wort, normally maltiness is found in beers with higher final gravities/more unfermentables. Make sense? Am I stating the obvious? Dead wrong?

I need to hit Noonan's book in more detail before my next decoction (about three weeks time). I'm sure Baron would chime in with the RIGHT anwser if he were around.