Starter Sugar Composition

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wonderbread23

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I am getting ready to brew a decent sized double IPA this weekend (OG=1.080) which gets about 10% of its fermentables from table sugar. Has anyone attempted to create their starters with the same sugar composition as their target wort? My starter has been stepped once with DME, and in the final step I am thinking about putting 10% table sugar in there so that the yeast can acclimate to this environment. So, who thinks?

1. It won't have any impact on attenuation / flavor.
2. The impact will be positive (better flavor and attenuation)
3. The impact will be worse (worse flavor and attenuation)

FYI, the starters I've made:

Starter Step #1: 1400ml @1.040 w/ 100% DME & nutrient. Pure O2 on stir plate.
Starter Step #2: 1400ml @ 1.040 w/ 90% DME 10% table sugar, & nutrient. Pure O2 on stir plate.
 
The no-chill people go one step further. They use actual wort from the batch to make the starter. Starter gets rolling while the bulk of the wort slowly and naturally chills.

I don't make starters very often, but when I do, I ferment then a week in advance and let the yeast settle out. Then I dump all the liquid off and just pitch the cake. This is to minimize any flavor contribution from the starter wort.
 
I'm not saying it will not work, but wisdom is that yeast get 'weak' when given simple sugars.

I would not do it. Justs seems to add additional complication for no benefit, and could be detrimental.
 
Don't use sugar. It won't shock your yeast to be in wort that has simple sugar. All it will do is make your yeast lazy and they won't go for the maltose. It WILL affect you attenuation, I would even add the sugar to your ferm only after it has died down and the yeast have eaten most of the maltose then add the sugar. About 72 hours into ferm then I add when using sugar. All you are doing is adding a 100% fermentable sugar, not for much more than added abv. It won't produce off flavors or really any flavor.
If you don't believe me others will be along shortly to say the same.
 
I don't see why not. Sucrose still has to be broken down by the yeast like maltose.
 
Yes but the yeast have to produce enzymes to break down maltose. Simple sugars require a lot less effort and so the yeast go for that first. Once they have consumed all the simple sugar they will be ill prepared for eating maltose because they are now generations away from their "parents" who could digest maltose.
 
do not use sucrose in your starter. it will affect the enzymes that the yeast create, and if you use a large enough percentage of table sugar the new yeast that are created in the starter could be UNABLE to metabolize maltose! This is not opinion, this is fact. No simple sugars in a starter intended for beer.
 
I'm not saying it will not work, but wisdom is that yeast get 'weak' when given simple sugars.

I would not do it. Justs seems to add additional complication for no benefit, and could be detrimental.

Don't use sugar. It won't shock your yeast to be in wort that has simple sugar. All it will do is make your yeast lazy and they won't go for the maltose. It WILL affect you attenuation, I would even add the sugar to your ferm only after it has died down and the yeast have eaten most of the maltose then add the sugar. About 72 hours into ferm then I add when using sugar. All you are doing is adding a 100% fermentable sugar, not for much more than added abv. It won't produce off flavors or really any flavor.
If you don't believe me others will be along shortly to say the same.

Is there any hard evidence for this? I know it gets repeated often, but I don't think yeast will lose their ability to digest maltose this quickly.
 
do not use sucrose in your starter. it will affect the enzymes that the yeast create, and if you use a large enough percentage of table sugar the new yeast that are created in the starter could be UNABLE to metabolize maltose! This is not opinion, this is fact. No simple sugars in a starter intended for beer.

Have a link you can provide on this one? Thanks.
 
guys... he's not saying he wants to use JUST simple sugar, or even A LOT of simple sugar. He is suggesting making a starter wort that closely resembles the wort he will actually be brewing.
 
Yes but the yeast have to produce enzymes to break down maltose. Simple sugars require a lot less effort and so the yeast go for that first. Once they have consumed all the simple sugar they will be ill prepared for eating maltose because they are now generations away from their "parents" who could digest maltose.

Both sucrose and maltose are disaccharides requiring the separation of two molecules before being fermented. I certainly see other factors coming into play but just not that one.
 
Interesting discussion so far. I am well aware on what the general body of brewing knowledge says about adding sucrose to a starter (as the main source of sugar). Has anyone out there actually done this, or is it simply part of the body of knowledge that brewers tend to follow? Granted, I am not talking about making a starter that is 100% simple sugars, rather I'm creating a composition (10% sugar) that is similar to my final wort. The wort has enough malt based sugar that I wouldn't think the yeast (at least in one generation) would mutate to the point that they can't metabolize maltose (or other long chain sugars). In any case, the sucker is going on my stir place. I'm brewing on Sunday, and will post my final attenuation numbers once it completed fermentation.
 
guys... he's not saying he wants to use JUST simple sugar, or even A LOT of simple sugar. He is suggesting making a starter wort that closely resembles the wort he will actually be brewing.
And I am saying it is not necessary and could even create problems. And it's not something I just thought up, it is something I have asked myself and every answer I've gotten, every book I've read and LHBS guy I've talked to all say the same thing. It is wasted effort and in the long run could be damaging to the health of the yeast. If you wanted to make them more prepared for the ferm O2 and yeast nutrient is all you need. A stir plate alone will do miles more for you than matching wort profile.

I've been over and over this. I am just passing on what I have learned and have been in the same position you have. I am only trying to give you advice as that is what you asked for.


Is there any hard evidence for this? I know it gets repeated often, but I don't think yeast will lose their ability to digest maltose this quickly.

As I said before, I've been there.
Or you could just read this.
Or you can take it directly from the experts. here
 
And I am saying it is not necessary and could even create problems. And it's not something I just thought up, it is something I have asked myself and every answer I've gotten, every book I've read and LHBS guy I've talked to all say the same thing. It is wasted effort and in the long run could be damaging to the health of the yeast. If you wanted to make them more prepared for the ferm O2 and yeast nutrient is all you need. A stir plate alone will do miles more for you than matching wort profile.

I've been over and over this. I am just passing on what I have learned and have been in the same position you have. I am only trying to give you advice as that is what you asked for.




As I said before, I've been there.
Or you could just read this.
Or you can take it directly from the experts. here

Nothing compelling in that slide show with a hand drawn graph. The thread is not research. I just find it hard to believe that yeast will simply lose their ability to not digest maltose in the 3 or 4 generations represented in a starter. There is a thread on here somewhere of a gallon jug that someone fed exclusively with sugar and kept it going for months and it is what he used for his brewing. I just don't believe all of these genes get lost in one weeks worth of starter.
 
Not sure where all the harshness is coming from...I guess maybe people take their yeast starters a bit personally :)

My intention here was to try and see if anyone out there has actually done this and what there experience has been. Yes, I've read a lot of material that is out there (including White and JZ's yeast book), but most of this material addresses starters with 100% table sugar not those with a small % of table sugar.

Anubis - I didn't come here asking for advice ... I came to see what other's particular experiences have been with this specifically and what the out come has been.
 
Anubis...

I know you bowed out and deleted your last post, but I did see what it said via my email update on the thread.

He NEVER asked whether he should or should not do this, and he never said he was going to make it out of only simple sugars or even a significant portion of simple sugars..... so don't get too worked up about advice being or not being followed.

He simply asked whether anyone had tried to make a starter wort that closely matched the composition of the wort that will be fermented with said starter and wanted to see what camp people were in with their expetations on the results.

That was it.

Hell.. it's only 10% simple sugar in the starter. it will be fine.
 
Not sure where all the harshness is coming from...I guess maybe people take their yeast starters a bit personally :)

My intention here was to try and see if anyone out there has actually done this and what there experience has been. Yes, I've read a lot of material that is out there (including White and JZ's yeast book), but most of this material addresses starters with 100% table sugar not those with a small % of table sugar.

Anubis - I didn't come hear asking for advice ... I came to see what other's particular experiences have been with this specifically and what the out come has been.

I am with you, wonderbread! I actually read the threads I respond to.
 
Not sure where all the harshness is coming from...I guess maybe people take their yeast starters a bit personally :)

I guess I am taking this a little too far. I really do take my starters seriously. I also think I have a problem when people may do something that could end up working against them and have this screaming instinct to help them.

You're right you didn't ask for my help. You only asked what we thought of the idea. So in that respect this is what I think. You'll have to forgive me for getting worked up. I blame it on being from a large Mexican family where we feel we have to yell and get pissed off to have anyone listen.

Just noticed you are from Seattle. We should get a beer, on me.
 
I guess I am taking this a little too far. I really do take my starters seriously. I also think I have a problem when people may do something that could end up working against them and have this screaming instinct to help them.

You're right you didn't ask for my help. You only asked what we thought of the idea. So in that respect this is what I think. You'll have to forgive me for getting worked up. I blame it on being from a large Mexican family where we feel we have to yell and get pissed off to have anyone listen.

No worries. In the end I'm guessing there will be little to gain or lose by introducing a small % of table sugar. In any case, the differences will likely be so minute that it won't be perceptible / measurable without a very controlled experiment (which is certainly not the case in my brewing setup). Anyways, if you're around for one of the Seattle area homebrew club meetings, let me know and I'll bring you one of the beers I make with this starter and you can give it a taste.
 
Alright but when I take a drink and say, "this is pretty good" you're not gonna be like BOOYAH! In your face sucka! Right? Although I was kinda asking for it.
 
I "wash" yeast using a solution that can best be described as an "inverted sugar only" starter. I pour in a gallon and a half of 'starter' and let it settle for about one hour and then decant the liquid into a gallon container and continue on to smaller containers from there. I do this because it is easier to separate out the trub. I have not noticed any problems with the yeast getting lazy or forgetting what maltose is.
 
I do this because it is easier to separate out the trub.

You mean the "sugar water" helps you separate the trub? Because it is denser than water? Or do you mean the washing is what makes it easier?
 
You mean the "sugar water" helps you separate the trub? Because it is denser than water? Or do you mean the washing is what makes it easier?

Trub settles relatively quickly compared to yeast. The sugar seems to activate them pretty quickly so there are even more in suspension when I decant. My latest is a blond ale and it turned absolutely creamy with yeast after about the second day.
 
Ok. I knew trub settles faster than yeast but waking them into suspension is something I hadn't considered. Of course as we all know, I fear the sugar.
 
Ok. I knew trub settles faster than yeast but waking them into suspension is something I hadn't considered. Of course as we all know, I fear the sugar.

Use wort or extract if you feel better doing that. I'm cheap. I also like the fact there will be a little alcohol in the liquid covering the decanted yeast.
 
There is a thread on here somewhere of a gallon jug that someone fed exclusively with sugar and kept it going for months and it is what he used for his brewing. I just don't believe all of these genes get lost in one weeks worth of starter.

The guy's handle is "slouch" and the thread is here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/canning-starter-wort-145763/

The info he provided is the reason I started making all my starters with table sugar and yeast nutrient about a year ago.

I'll let ya'll know when the "facts" about sucrose suddenly pop up and start ruining my beer. I've done a bunch of 5 gallon batches since I made the switch to table sugar starters and I haven't had a single issue. Wonderbread--go for it man.
 
In the last Belgian I made I used dextrose along with DME in a 3L starter. It fermented from 1.085 down to 1.014 in about a week. No problems at all. The beer is still aging at the moment so I can't comment on any effects on the taste but the samples have been good.

I'm still a noob though so take it FWIW.
 
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