Will K-Meta (Campden) kill e. Coli in Cider?

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pan_tiques

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Hey! My first post!
Some awesome friends of mine are re-building a ciderpress I bought back in the '80's and it's almost ready to use. I've been collecting apples like crazy...not being particularily selective about which ones were picked off the tree and which ones were collected underneath. Now I find out that there is the potential for e. Coli because of the animals who come and eat the fallen apples and poop under the trees.
Even GOOGLE has NO reference to whether Campden Tablets will kill e. coli. so I turn to you guys. Well...?????? Tell me I don't have to throw away 18 boxes of apples!

Pan_tiques
 
I don't know if Campden tablets or other metabisulfite products will kill E. Coli bacteria. However, I think thoroughly washing the apples should greatly reduce the quantity, if any, of E. Coli bacteria present on them.

While I would hate to see all the apples thrown away, I would be more upset if someone were to become ill from consuming tainted apples or cider.

Pasteurization might be a viable option. Most, if not all, commercially available ciders are pasteurized for safety and health reasons as well as to prevent spontaneous fermentation of the cider by wild yeasts found on the fruit.

In Iowa, for example, we have local University Extension offices that can answer agriculture-related questions such as yours. You might want to look for a similar resource in your area for a more expert opinion.
 
No need to worry. Fermentation will kill any bad stuff that might be in the apple juice.
 
No need to worry. Fermentation will kill any bad stuff that might be in the apple juice.

In my opinion, that is some pretty bad advice.

Wash all the apples before grinding / pressing them. Use a large cooler, fill it with water (10 gallons?), add StarSan per the directions on the bottle (1 ounce to 5 gallons of water), then add the apples. let them sit in the StarSan for at least 30 seconds. Do not rinse the apples at all. Quarter the apples before pressing. This will let you examine them and get rid of bad apples at this time. I would not use any apples that have been broken open.
 
It won't survive fermentation man. Abv tolerance of e. coli is 3.5%. Fermentation is harsh on microorganisms. Just throw a good starter in and you should be fine. Don't toss them

That being said, just because it won't hurt or kill you doesn't mean it's ideal to have e.coli infected apples. There is still the fact that it may affect taste before it's killed off by the natural sanitizer the yeast makes (ethanol). Washing them is still good practice.
 
It won't survive fermentation man. Abv tolerance of e. coli is 3.5%. Fermentation is harsh on microorganisms. Just throw a good starter in and you should be fine. Don't toss them

That being said, just because it won't hurt or kill you doesn't mean it's ideal to have e.coli infected apples. There is still the fact that it may affect taste before it's killed off by the natural sanitizer the yeast makes (ethanol). Washing them is still good practice.


Not only ABV, but pH.
 
Well to weigh in (or is that a way in?) took a google search and here is what I found from one study.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2180/3/17
"Results
Growth at 37°C of E. coli O26:H11, O88:H21, O91:H21, O111:H-, O113:H21, O116:H21, O117:H7, O157:H7, O171:H2 and OX3:H21, was found to occur at pH higher than 4.0. When the strains were challenged to acid tolerance at pH as low as 2.5, viability extended beyond 8 h, but none of the bacteria, except E. coli O91:H21, could survive longer than 24 h, the autochthonous E. coli O91:H21 being the more resistant serotype. No survival was found after 24 h in Luria Bertani broth supplemented with 12% ethanol, but all these serotypes were shown to be very resistant to 6% ethanol. E. coli O91:H21 showed the highest resistance among serotypes tested.

Conclusions
This information is relevant in food industry, which strongly relies on the acid or alcoholic conditions to inactivate pathogens. This study revealed that stress resistance of some STEC serotypes isolated in Argentina is higher than that for E. coli O157:H7. "

Or basically if you are going to do a high alcohol cider - just doing juice I think maxes at 9% abv - then that should work, as should a acid or 2.5% for 24 hours- not 30 mins as noted above. Again, apple juice while acidic, I think is in the 5% range.

Lastly as to preservatives (K-meta or Sorbate) these usually inhibit growth, but don't nesc kill the bacteria. They certianly don't kill yeast. Also you could try pasturization, but that would require more research on e.coli to determine if it is the bacteria, or left over toxins that are the problem. I guess you best move at this point assuming after 3 week syou've not done anything would be the star san (acid based cleaner) and get a ph reading.

Assuming you've made the cider - pasturize it.
 
The mediums in these studies were broth... a high protein and fat medium, which e. coli love and thrive on. I wonder what these studies would be like in a medium in which the bacteria weren't necessarily multiplying and thriving on, such as a simple cider or a simple water-sucrose solution?
 
I admit I didn't read that far, and it is an interesting question about the growth medium. From what I gathered from some other reading, the danger from e coli is bacteria count and infection, not toxic by product (iirc, botulism is caused by the toxins left behind, so bacteria count when you consume doesn't matter as much).
 
I admit I didn't read that far, and it is an interesting question about the growth medium. From what I gathered from some other reading, the danger from e coli is bacteria count and infection, not toxic by product (iirc, botulism is caused by the toxins left behind, so bacteria count when you consume doesn't matter as much).

So not so much like a botulism or yeast threat (botulism leaves the botulin toxin, yeast leaves the ethanol toxin), but the fact that e. coli cell reproduction is outrageously fast. Ever watch a video of a single cell turning into thousands? Kind of scary to think that they do that inside you if they happen to overwhelm your immune system. That brings up another point: The immune system.

The way I see it, dropping a few wild yeast cells or a few pseudomonas cells into a raging-active ferment by champagne yeast would have no effect. They would be out-competed by the yeast! However, drop a nice, multi-billion cell starter of pseudomonas into an active ferment with some nutrients, and you're asking for a stinky, infected home brew to the max. Same goes with your immune system (except for viruses it seems like). A healthy immune system is like a healthy ferment, ready to kill anything that threatens it, as long as it's not big enough to overwhelm it.
 
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