Water Questions (moved from the Sticky)

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ThatGuyRyan

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so for the ez spread sheet when I add lets say .5 grams to the mash it then adds .5 or so the the boil underneath. So am I correct in thinking that I need a total of 1 gram split between the two?
 
so for the ez spread sheet when I add lets say .5 grams to the mash it then adds .5 or so the the boil underneath. So am I correct in thinking that I need a total of 1 gram split between the two?

The answer is YES you are absolutely correct!

Now as a side note, the latest version of the spreadsheet has a feature where you can uncheck a box if you don't want to add a given salt to the boil. For example, some people like to exclude Epsom salt from the boil because they only want it in the mash for pH reasons and they want to keep total sodium low. The spreadsheet also then shows you how your total water is affected by doing that.

Cheers!
 
Just a note on brewing city's water profiles. I think they should be taken with a grain of salt (no pun intended)... used as a resource to contribute information to create water profiles for specific styles, not to attempt to duplicate exactly. Most commercial breweries around the world treat their water in some way. One of the best examples of this is Dortmund. I believe it was Fix (Brewing Science and Practice) who stated that evidence suggests Dortmund brewers treat their water to be [practically] as soft as Pilsen.
 
...Maybe -TH- can lay out the formula's for me so I don't have to spend weeks deciphering ;)

Check out EZ 2.0 if you haven't already and pull from there whatever you like! You might still want to read Kai and AJ's works, some of it goes against Palmer's SRM to RA concept.

Cheers
 
I probably should just start a new thread for the Bru'N Water calculator (it needs it's own thread imo) but I didn't really get too deep into it this weekend. I generally want to know what the predicted mash pH will be, what the ion concentrations for Ca and few others are, and 'almost' never want to make any particular profile (I generally want; low alkalinity, soft but with sufficient Ca). It seemed that I was locked into making one of the available profiles which had it recommending things like lime (IIRC), something I don't have on-hand. It would be nice if I could tell it; "I don't have any of that salt AND I either don't care at all whether I have that ion being added here in my beer or I specifically DON'T want that ion in my beer." But it was trying to match a profile. I need to play with it more but is there an easy way to just get a predicted mash pH and ion concentrations and not have it tell me to add certain salts to match a given profile (that I don't really want to match exactly in the first place)? Can I specify my own profile?

It did tell me that the water report for the bottled water I use is way unbalanced as-is which is good to know. Maybe that's why my mash pH is always higher than TH's calculator predicts (although this weekend it was damn close).
 
It did tell me that the water report for the bottled water I use is way unbalanced as-is which is good to know. Maybe that's why my mash pH is always higher than TH's calculator predicts (although this weekend it was damn close).
I went back and tried to find out why my water report was so out of whack. The report does not say -S or -N for sulphate/nitrate but once I muliplied the numbers in the report by 3 and 4.43 respectively...bam...a green 1.01 block. I can't be sure that's it but it sure points in that direction. Very nice tool to have. I hope 17 ppm nitrate isn't excessive.
 
I have doubts that the sulfate or nitrate were the culprits if the lab didn't indicate that they were reported in 'SO4-S' or 'NO3-N' units. If they indicated SO4 or NO3, then the original values were probably correct. If this was a Ward Labs report, then your revision to the concentrations should be OK.

17 ppm NO3 is high. 10 ppm is the recommended limit for NO3 in drinking water.
 
I have doubts that the sulfate or nitrate were the culprits if the lab didn't indicate that they were reported in 'SO4-S' or 'NO3-N' units. If they indicated SO4 or NO3, then the original values were probably correct. If this was a Ward Labs report, then your revision to the concentrations should be OK.

17 ppm NO3 is high. 10 ppm is the recommended limit for NO3 in drinking water.
Just noticed this response, thanks. This was a report straight from a bottled water company. The Nitrate was 4 on the report. Any ideas how to get this water report more balanced (it's ~1.2 Cation/Anion ratio as-is)?

Ca 58
Mg 4
Na 5
K unk
Fe unk

HCO3 140
CO3 .3
SO4 8
Cl 11
NO3 4
NO2 unk
F unk

pH 7.7

Is it a bit strange that everything is so low (not counting alkalinity) except there is 58 ppm Ca?
 
Did the company tell you the bicarbonate concentration or the alkalinity? In addition, they may have reported the bicarbonate (as CaCO3). Any of these discrepancies would cause you to input too low a HCO3 concentration.

To convert the concentration of bicarbonate that has been reported (as CaCO3) to straight HCO3 concentration, it is multiplied by 1.22. That would bring the HCO3 to about 170 ppm and the water balances acceptably.

You will need to assess if the information from the water company may have that difference.

PS: The next version of Bru'n Water includes a units conversion calculator to allow the brewer to quickly make these investigations.
 
Did the company tell you the bicarbonate concentration or the alkalinity? In addition, they may have reported the bicarbonate (as CaCO3). Any of these discrepancies would cause you to input too low a HCO3 concentration.

To convert the concentration of bicarbonate that has been reported (as CaCO3) to straight HCO3 concentration, it is multiplied by 1.22. That would bring the HCO3 to about 170 ppm and the water balances acceptably.

You will need to assess if the information from the water company may have that difference.

PS: The next version of Bru'n Water includes a units conversion calculator to allow the brewer to quickly make these investigations.
It definitely says Bicarbonate (the word). I guess I had the relationship bassackwards, I thought my alkalinity as CaCO3 was 115 (that's what I get on the water Input page as well).

EDIT: OK, redding comprension fail on my part. You're saying perhaps they reported it 'as CaCO3' but labeled it 'bicarbonate'. That may be the case, I typ got slightly higher mash pH than TH's spreadsheet predicted when using sauermalz.
 
Has anyone used Palmer's Pilsen Water Profile for a Bohemian Pils? I recently heard him on Brew Strong say that you need 50ppm Ca for the yeast to Flocculate and his profile has Pilsen at 10ppm. I was about to do a pils and was going to use his water profile for the recipe and now I am afraid it will not flocculate. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!
 
Has anyone used Palmer's Pilsen Water Profile for a Bohemian Pils? I recently heard him on Brew Strong say that you need 50ppm Ca for the yeast to Flocculate and his profile has Pilsen at 10ppm. I was about to do a pils and was going to use his water profile for the recipe and now I am afraid it will not flocculate. Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!

The barley malt itself contributes calcium.
 
I brew all my Pilsners with calcium levels well below 50 mg/L. The yeast flocculate. An important part of lager brewing is, unsurprisingly enough, lagering. The yeast may not drop as fast as they would with more Ca++ but given proper lagering time you will have bright beer.

One thing I noticed when I got religion on mash pH control is that low mash pH seems to speed clarification.
 
One thing I noticed when I got religion on mash pH control is that low mash pH seems to speed clarification.

Does this low-pH/decrease in clarification time apply to ales, too? Or is this a unique feature with just lagers?
 
All beers I brew except Kölsch. That yeast is just so dusty nothing will get it but filtration. But I don't brew many ales except Kölsch and Weizen neither of which clears. Subsequent to experiencing it in the real world I saw a confirming statement in a book somewhere - don't remember where.
 
I am in the process of moving my brewery to well water. I did have it tested and will brew very good dark beers. I prefer light beers to amber ales.

I have been spending a lot of time in this forum and appreciate all the information.

I have been playing with two of the spreadsheet tools noted here. Both I believe are highly regarded.

I need to make a decision on which tool to use so I can get on to actually brewing.

My question: Is it best just to select one and go with it?, Or, is there some reasoning behind the selection that I may need to consider?
 
Anyone have a fairly recent profile of city water in Duluth Minnesota (Lake Superior H20)? I've found something on the city website but it's pretty basic. I'll get a sample tested if need be but I thought I'd check in with the brew-a-nistas before shelling out the $$$ (I'm a cheap mutha!).
 
Hello,

I'm trying to find the EZ water spreedsheet 2.0....all I can find is the 3.0. I would really like to use the 2.0 version. I beleive this is the one Bobby uses in his 3 part vidoe series.....Can anyone help me with this?
 
Why is there so much discrepancy between these spreadsheets? Palmer's says for me to add to RO water for a 3.3 srm (cream ale) 2.5 g CaCl and 2.5g of epsom.

Ez water 8 g of each?

Saq 4.7 g of each?

Also, do you add the additions that dont go into the mash into the boil or the sparge?

Palmer and Jamil in the waterganza podcast were saying something about adding it to the boil because....i cant remember....blah blah
 
Although a 3 plus year thread, it has recently been replied to...
i would like to ask the community's opinion on http://nomograph.babbrewers.com/

A fantastic idea and easy to use tool, however...

The nomograph online app was apparently written with Palmer's permission as it is based off of his nomograph in how to brew.
The online app seems to work consistent with the manual chart in chapter 15.3 until you begin to adjust the levers for ion additions. This is where i lose confidence in this tool. Compare the final output of salt additions to the chart on chapter 15.4....The numbers are not even close.
The output simply does not match up to the chart or any popular water spreadsheet calculator for that matter.

I have had this discussion with other brewers and we all feel this online nomagraph is misleading to anyone who uses it.

or is every last one of us simply using it wrong?
 
Why is there so much discrepancy between these spreadsheets? Palmer's says for me to add to RO water for a 3.3 srm (cream ale) 2.5 g CaCl and 2.5g of epsom.

Ez water 8 g of each?

Saq 4.7 g of each?

Also, do you add the additions that dont go into the mash into the boil or the sparge?

Palmer and Jamil in the waterganza podcast were saying something about adding it to the boil because....i cant remember....blah blah

I feel your pain. I have been pulling out handful's of hair trying to figure this out too. I even have tried brewsmiths water calc in version 2. That doesnt take into account grist or SRM! I am going to go with the water primer by Ajdelange. Its simple and easy to figure, take a look.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/
 
I feel your pain. I have been pulling out handful's of hair trying to figure this out too. I even have tried brewsmiths water calc in version 2. That doesnt take into account grist or SRM! I am going to go with the water primer by Ajdelange. Its simple and easy to figure, take a look.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Although i have expressed my concerns with the online nomagraph calculations being extremely off from the numbers in Palmer's book it appears to be pulling from...

Lets not forget that probably over 90% of your success will come from great fermentation, temperature control in particular.

Once getting your fermentation down, these water adjustments may boost your beer from scoring in the low 40's to upper 40's.
Proper fermentation can take your beer from the 20-30's into the 40's, way more signification than any water adjustment could ever do.

All bearing proper cleaning and sanitation processes.
 
Unfortunately, it's not a complete report. It tells you that the calcium ion content is (average) 20*84/50 and that the magnesium ion content is (average) 12.15*(136 - 84)/50 but it does not tell whether any sodium or potassium is present nor does it say anything about the negative ions (chloride, sulfate, bicarbonate) which must be present to balance the positive charges on the calcium and magnesium. You will have to either call them up and ask for the additional data (which they will have) or send a sample off to Ward Labs for analysis.
 
ajdelange said:
Unfortunately, it's not a complete report. It tells you that the calcium ion content is (average) 20*84/50 and that the magnesium ion content is (average) 12.15*(136 - 84)/50 but it does not tell whether any sodium or potassium is present nor does it say anything about the negative ions (chloride, sulfate, bicarbonate) which must be present to balance the positive charges on the calcium and magnesium. You will have to either call them up and ask for the additional data (which they will have) or send a sample off to Ward Labs for analysis.

Look at your city website. Fortunately for me, my city posts monthly reports. A one time Wards analysis wouldn't work for me. Since we pull municipal water from the Yellowstone River, electrolytes are constantly changing with the season.
 
i have a copy of my water profile but i have no idea what im looking at. can some one tell me what numbers i need so i can enter them in beersmith


http://www.cityofelgin.org/index.aspx?NID=443

Beersmith is good, i would mess around with a few of them until you find one that is comfortable for you....such as John Palmers spreadsheet on howtobrew.com or the easy water calc.

So your table
Here are the important parts as averages
pH - 8.73
Calcium - 86
Magnesium - 48
Chloride - not listed, call your water company they should give it to you and it is essential to have this number
Sulfate - 45
Sodium - 68
total Alkalinity as CaCO3 - 77 (some spreasheets will allow you to choose between bicarbonate or alkalinity as CaCo3, either is fine)

Notes, overall your numbers are somewhat average for the U.S.
pH - a little high but somewhat average for the U.S. if not cutting with distilled you can bring down with acid for your paler beers.
Calcium is in a great range for yeast health
Magnesium is high in my opinion, you only need maybe half to a quarter of this for yeast health, some say too high of magnesium is the cause of the beer S#its.
Sulfate to Chloride ratio: this balance accentuates malt to bitter, higher sulfates for bitter, higher chloride for maltier (call your water company)
Sodium - this is way high on your table and may cause a sharpness to your hoppy beers, i try to keep sodium to a min in almost all brews
Hardness or Alkalinity as CaCO3 - this is fairly middle of the road. good for Ambers and American Ales, your in a good range, cut with distilled for paler beers or add hardness for darker

Hope this helped
 
Yes i do agree with the others about water changing seasonally.
This can be caused by a number of factors which makes the problem even more harder to get a handle on...such as a location pulling river water half of the year and drawing from aquifer another half. I keep my eye on the reports quarterly.
Only way to get a true reading is to have the analysis machines on hand which = $$$$
or just build from distilled every time

I noticed allot of the chloride and sulfates are not terribly different throughout the year with the water i have had experience with.
Chloride to sulfate ratios can be adjusted one way or the other using calcium chloride and calcium sulfate as calcium is essential for yeast health.
Chloride = accentuates malt character
Sulfate = accentuates hop character

But the point is, you want to keep your pH in range around 5.1-5.4 for most beers, so get a good pH tester(not too expensive) and test your pH throughout the mash process, then adjust with perhaps baking soda or acid such as lactic.
 
OK...I'm cheap but curiosity got the better of me. I submitted a water sample to Ward's Labs and here is there "brewing profile". Duluth, Minnesota municipal water (Lake Superior). House built in 1962 (copper pipes). I know it's great water, but was curious about the makeup...may be useful for trying to imitate the H2O from someplace else...

pH 7.9

Total Disssolved Solids ppm 79

Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.13

Cations/Anions, me/L 1.4/1.3



Rest is in parts per million (ppm)

Sodium, Na 7

Potassium, K 2

Calcium, Ca 16

Magnesium, Mg 4

Total Hardness, CaCO3 57

Nitrate, NO3-N 0.8 (SAFE)

Sulfate, SO4-S 3

Chloride, Cl 3

Carbonate, CO3 <1

Bicarbonate, HCO3 56

Total Akalinity, CaCO3 46

Total Phosphorus, P 0.37

Total Iron, Fe 0.09

Now I just gotta figure out how to use this info..enjoy all!

Anyone have a fairly recent profile of city water in Duluth Minnesota (Lake Superior H20)? I've found something on the city website but it's pretty basic. I'll get a sample tested if need be but I thought I'd check in with the brew-a-nistas before shelling out the $$$ (I'm a cheap mutha!).
 
Yep, its nearly RO quality. The alkalinity should be easy to manage. A little acid for your sparging water and light grists. You may need more alkalinity for brewing with more acidic grists.
 
i have a copy of my water profile but i have no idea what im looking at. can some one tell me what numbers i need so i can enter them in beersmith


http://www.cityofelgin.org/index.aspx?NID=443
Here is something you may want to try: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator

It does lots of the unit conversions for you.

for calcium enter 84 - ppm as CaCO3
For Mg enter 52 - ppm as CaCO3 (total hardness - calcium hardness)
for pH enter 8.6
for alkalinity enter 72 ppm as CaCO3

Thus will give you these ion levels:

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 HCO3- CO32-
33.7 12.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 82.215 1.506 1.32

Since you know Ca, Mg and bicarbobnate/carbonate you have enough data to do mash pH predictions.

Kai

EDIT: I just realized that I fell for an old post. Nevertheless the answer may help others.
 
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