Attempting a HUGE brew. 20% or above. Need advice

I Know what you thinking. Stupid, pointless, and unnecessary. But I don't care! I don't want to hear any negative, can not comments. Only comments that may help. Here's my plan so far.

Make a huge beer. 20% plus. Maybe I should aim higher.........

I'm only brewing a 1 gallon batch. This is all experimental.

Ingredients: 6lbs 2 row then about a 1/4 pound of anything else I have. Hops will be plentiful. Maybe 6 oz in the brew and a couple more for dry hopping. Maybe throw in some oak chips. I dunno. Let's go crazy.

I'll brew it up and put it in my 1 gallon carboy. Then I'll throw in some Nottingham dry yeast. 1 packet for one gallon? I'll keeps some more on hand just in case. Then I'll let it work. After fermentation is done. I'm gonna let it sit for about 6 months. I'll be away from home. so that will be a good thing.


When I come home....
I read that you can freeze you beer into a slushy and the strongest part of the beer will stay at the bottom. That being said I will put my brew in a margarita bucket(sanitized of course) and let it sit in the fridge until it gets slushy. Then I will drain off the strongest part of it into my old chimay bottle( or whatever I have) I'll then throw some sugar in there and hope that it carbonates.

I'll probably let it sit another 6 months. Then try it out.

Any suggestions on my process or ingredients (which obviously are not locked down yet) would be great.

I want to make the worlds strongest homebrew. And try to make it taste......well I doubt it will be good. But let's try

I have heard some will finish off big wines like barleywines with champagne yeasts which are more alcohol tolerant

Based on your process you are wanting to make an Eisbier. I suggest watching the brewing tv episode on Eisbier.

I wouldn't think it would carb up after being Eised, without pitching some extra yeast and sugar, but I've never done it.

From what I understand it is hard to determine ABV after it has been eised.

Good luck

There's lots of resources out there on working with high gravity but I think the key here is making sure you ferment this out well. I don't have experience going this high, but I would suggest starting off with a low fermentation temp and then ramping up to help the yeast along. I would then look into feeding this along further with some sugar and yeast nutrient additions after the primary fermentation phase has slowed. Going that high you might want to start off with one yeast and then finish off with a really high attenuating yeast like a champagne yeast pitched at high krausen or possibly a lager yeast and then the champagne to drop it down to your desired FG and the eis / freeze it off. Good luck!!!

20% is damn near the limit of any yeast, and even that usually requires specialized techniques like yeast feeding. Using ale yeast and standard techniques you will be lucky to hit 15% IMO.

In fact, using only malt (not table sugar or other fermentables) I bet you will need such a high gravity to even attempt this that it will make fermentation very difficult.

Find the Dogfish 120 Min Clone attempts/discussions. You will need to pitch a ton of healthy yeast and then feed it simple sugar daily

Nottingham has a tolorence of about 12%, to go higher you may need to go with a champaign yeast (EC-1118) that goes to 18%. some of the distilling yeasts will go higher up to 23% but not sure of the taste.
Good luck, let us know how it turns out.

Here is a link to a post about my super high gravity beer. The picture gallery in the post has some info. the last picture in the gallery has my notes that I kept during the whole process.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/br...ike-some-input-263261/index2.html#post3219152

I used two yeasts, WLP007 and 099 both from huge starters. I split the wort into several additions to keep the yeast happy. Lots of oxygen and yeast nutrients. Add any sugar slowly over time to keep the yeast working. I'm pretty sure I could have gotten this thing higher but it wasn't what I was going for.

brettwasbtd said:

Find the Dogfish 120 Min Clone attempts/discussions. You will need to pitch a ton of healthy yeast and then feed it simple sugar daily

Click to expand...

I read a little on the 120 clone. It says to aerate it everyday for the first couple of days and keep adding yeast slowly. This will be quite a brew.

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP SO FAR!

Are you trying to get to 20% before freezing, or after? If after, I'd first figure out how high you want to go with the original brew. I've not tried making an eisbock before, but if you can figure out the expected concentration from freezing, you can get an idea of where you need to start (say 15%?).

From there, I think you'll definitely want to start in a decent OG range (1.08 or so) and add in additional wort as the yeast has a chance to work on it. Starting too high (>1.2?) will put a lot of osmotic stress on the yeast. It might be easier to make those additional additions plain sugar rather than wort. If you're set on an all-malt beer though, you could make up all of your wort on day 1 and save back some small samples to add later and hope they don't get contaminated.

Also, how are you planning on mashing this? Are you going to mash really thick, or mash a large amount (4-5 gal) and boil down to 1? If you're boiling down, you might not need anything else other than base malt. The long boil should provide a decent amount of caramelization to give you some nice malty flavors (think like a strong scotch ale).

I also agree with other posters that you'll have to go somewhere other than nottingham after the first part of fermentation. You could let the nottingham go to completion and add extra yeast (champagne, high-alc, etc.), but that might shock the new yeast due to the high alcohol content. You may want to either pitch both yeasts at the start, or pitch the high-alc yeast after only a few days of fermentation so it has time to acclimate.

Once you've concentrated it, I think you might have a hard time getting any carbonation going. You could try a new dose of champagne yeast or wine yeast, but there's no guarantees. If they don't work, you'll have added priming sugar to what might wind up being a pretty sweet beer anyways. I'd probably plan on leaving it uncarbonated and serving it in a brandy snifter! At that level of alcohol it won't be out of place to be uncarbonated.

Keep us updated on the progress!

You mean like this?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/attempting-40-abv-beer-barley-brandy-246775/

diverpat said:

Here is a link to a post about my super high gravity beer. The picture gallery in the post has some info. the last picture in the gallery has my notes that I kept during the whole process.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/br...ike-some-input-263261/index2.html#post3219152

I used two yeasts, WLP007 and 099 both from huge starters. I split the wort into several additions to keep the yeast happy. Lots of oxygen and yeast nutrients. Add any sugar slowly over time to keep the yeast working. I'm pretty sure I could have gotten this thing higher but it wasn't what I was going for.

Click to expand...

thats very helpful. i will be doing everything exactly the same

erikpete18 said:

Are you trying to get to 20% before freezing, or after? If after, I'd first figure out how high you want to go with the original brew. I've not tried making an eisbock before, but if you can figure out the expected concentration from freezing, you can get an idea of where you need to start (say 15%?).

From there, I think you'll definitely want to start in a decent OG range (1.08 or so) and add in additional wort as the yeast has a chance to work on it. Starting too high (>1.2?) will put a lot of osmotic stress on the yeast. It might be easier to make those additional additions plain sugar rather than wort. If you're set on an all-malt beer though, you could make up all of your wort on day 1 and save back some small samples to add later and hope they don't get contaminated.

Also, how are you planning on mashing this? Are you going to mash really thick, or mash a large amount (4-5 gal) and boil down to 1? If you're boiling down, you might not need anything else other than base malt. The long boil should provide a decent amount of caramelization to give you some nice malty flavors (think like a strong scotch ale).

I also agree with other posters that you'll have to go somewhere other than nottingham after the first part of fermentation. You could let the nottingham go to completion and add extra yeast (champagne, high-alc, etc.), but that might shock the new yeast due to the high alcohol content. You may want to either pitch both yeasts at the start, or pitch the high-alc yeast after only a few days of fermentation so it has time to acclimate.

Once you've concentrated it, I think you might have a hard time getting any carbonation going. You could try a new dose of champagne yeast or wine yeast, but there's no guarantees. If they don't work, you'll have added priming sugar to what might wind up being a pretty sweet beer anyways. I'd probably plan on leaving it uncarbonated and serving it in a brandy snifter! At that level of alcohol it won't be out of place to be uncarbonated.

Keep us updated on the progress!

Click to expand...

Im only making 1 gallon of it. i dont want to wast 20 lbs or more of grains for something that may taste like.......crap. i agree with all your comments. and im taking everything into consideration. im just doing it for fun. i will be sure to keep you all posted. it should be interesting

Well i decided on my recipe...sort of... i still have some kinks to work out.


SS IMPERIAL STOUT

1 gallon
All Grain
1.260~OG→1.073~FG→24.5%ABV 128 IBU 70.3°L SRM
Yeasts
(null)

Fermentables
8.06 pounds
2 Row Base
36ppg, 2°L 6 pounds
74%
Sugar - Corn
41ppg, 0°L 10 ounces
8%
Victory
34ppg, 25°L 8 ounces
6%
CaraPils
32ppg, 2°L 6 ounces
5%
Barley (Roasted)
27ppg, 500°L 3 ounces
2%
Black Patent
26ppg, 500°L 3 ounces
2%
Chocolate
28ppg, 350°L 3 ounces
2%

Hops
6 ounces
Columbus
15%, Pellet 3.88 ounces
65%
Goldings (Kent)
5%, Pellet 2 ounces
33%

Flavor/Finings
1 ounce
Oak chips (Light)
Flavor 1 ounce
100%

Boil
1 hour, 1.38 gallons
Columbus hops
15%, Pellet 2 ounces
60 minutes (+0)
Columbus hops
15%, Pellet 3.88 ounces
20 minutes (+40)
Add wort chiller 15 minutes (+45)
Goldings (Kent) hops
5%, Pellet 2 ounces
1 minutes (+59)


For some reason some of these calculations are a little different on my brew calculator but this is sent from my iphone. The ingredients are right

im still trying to figure out how much hops to put in it.

But heres what im doing.

first and most obviously im brewing the beer. its gonna be a very high starting gravity because i want it to be as high as possible. I understand i can work the yeast too hard during this process so heres what im doing.

Mr. malty says i only need to pitch 8 grams from my 11 gram packet of dry yeast (remember this is only a one gallon batch) . So i will pitch 8 grams the first day then pitch the other 3 the next day. or maybe the third day...im not sure yet. I will then attach my IV drip to the fermentor with sugar water or syrup. ( i stil need to test this one out to see what my drip rate will be) Anyways, this should make it so the yeast is continually being fed sugars to keep it working strong.

when the 5th day comes around im going to pitch a yeast starter that i made of an irish ale yeast. of course i will aerate this everytime i add something. I will not pitch the whole starter though because is only a 1 gallon batch. i will keep the starter going so i can use it again the next day and probablyth day after. i want to continually and gradually add more yeast thoughout the process. thsi will last for another 5 days.

after those 5 days i will move on to my champagne yeast to finish off the brew and achieve a higher gravity. I will also keep the sugar flowing with the yeast as long as its still working really hard.

After fermentation is complete;. (cross my fingers) i will let it sit for 6 months with some oak spirals or cubes or whatever. ill probably have a heavy roast.

after six months i will bottle half of it and then try to eisbier the rest of it. ill check the final gravity and hope that it is a Super Strong Imperial Stout

i think thats it. ill probably read over this again and fix some things.

Any advice is welcome

I like the idea of the IV drip!!! I would try D5W at KVO to start. As far as carbing is concerned, maybe you know someone that kegs and you could force carb it.

You might want to pitch the initial fermentation onto a 5 gallon cake if you have one available.

If you're going to feed along the yeast, don't do it up front. You'll want to do it once the initial fermentation slows down. They're just like kids, if you give them dessert (simple sugars) first, they won't eat their dinner (more complex sugars). You don't need an IV (although that's a fun idea). Once fermentation slows down, you can just drop in a little one day, then give it another day or so, and then some more, etc. You'll want to monitor the activity to figure out when you need to stick that carrot in front of them again.

I didn't see yeast nutrient in there. I would certainly add some. At that OG I would also of course suggest pure 02 (if you have it available) for your initial aeration and then follow up about 15-18 hours later with another shot of it to boost up more growth towards the end of the lag phase and allow them to build up their cell walls a bit more.

Kmcogar said:

Mr. malty says i only need to pitch 8 grams from my 11 gram packet of dry yeast (remember this is only a one gallon batch) . So i will pitch 8 grams the first day then pitch the other 3 the next day. or maybe the third day...im not sure yet.

Click to expand...

Make sure to properly rehydrate and not just toss it in. (might be obvious to you, but it isn't for some)

Kmcogar said:

when the 5th day comes around im going to pitch a yeast starter that i made of an irish ale yeast.

Click to expand...

You'll want to do this at high krausen or else most of the yeast will likely just drop out. They need to be in a very active state to take over fermentation at starting high alcohol levels. Good choice on the yeast, high attenuating and clean. 5 days in it shouldn't lend very much additional flavor at all.

Kmcogar said:

after those 5 days i will move on to my champagne yeast to finish off the brew and achieve a higher gravity.

Click to expand...

Again, I'd suggest high krausen

Good luck!!!! Can't wait to see how it turns out!

My 2 cents- consider White Labs super high gravity yeast instead of champagne yeast. Either will work, but I have had better experience with WL. I have a 120-type beer I did back in December and it kept chugging along with no sign of slowing down up to about 19 or 20%, which is when I stopped adding sugar. I pitched second yeast and started feeding when the fermentation had slowed down and the gravity was about 80% of the way to FG (that took more than 5 days, but it was december and fermenting at about 60 degrees F). That one tube for a 3g batch.

Also, you may want to consider increasing the batch size a bit, especially if you are still planning on doing the eisbeer thing. Beers like this are a lot of work and time and tend to get better with age. My 120-style beer is still in secondary and just starting to be drinkable now. It was absolutely disgusting until about 3 months, then it started to come around. Now I am thinking it should be a pretty interesting and tasty beer in another 6 months or more. A slightly larger batch will allow you to take some tastes along the way to decide if it is ready to go to bottle or not and still have at least a few six packs left when you are done.

Good luck!

i've done a 16% RIS, so i'll give some thoughts from that. id change your recipe a bit, thats a bit too much specialty malts (>7lbs in 5gal!) for a brew of this size. i'd ditch the carapils, its a waste in this. 1oz of oak in 1gal is also a ton. i'd also recommend dropping your OG and aiming for a lower FG to get the same abv

adding the irish & champagne yeast won't really do much at all. irish has too low of tolerance and champagne yeast is only really good for simple sugars, plus tops out at 18%. use 099 instead (25% tolerance) and add it from large highly aerated starter within the first few days. i'd also recommend mashing very low n long.

Well I was trying to keep this brew kinda cheap since its an experiment. That's why I was using the dry yeast and dry champagne yeast. I was using the Irish ale yeast cause I willHHS brewing an Irish stou and I was going to wash that yeast to add to this batch. I could probably just drop this batch on top of the krausen and use the other yeast for the other parts.

So you think the champagne yeast wont do that job? It's soooo cheap. It's $1 compared to $8 (WL). Wheres the dry yeast that can handle 25% plus?!

I'll take everything into consideration. I need to brew soon to get this batch rolling before I leave for 6 months. So I have to brew my stout first.&

I might move my batch to 2 gallons......

mmonacel said:

You'll want to do this at high krausen or else most of the yeast will likely just drop out. They need to be in a very active state to take over fermentation at starting high alcohol levels.

Click to expand...

How do you do that without adding the crappy "beer"? I always cold crashed for a day and decanted.

Is there a difference force carbonating a stronger beer vs a lighter beer. Let's just assume I reach 30% abv.

Will I be able to force carbonate it?

If I'm gonna make a big beer, it may as well be carbonated! I feel like a beer isn't a beer without carbonation

you can force carb anything, but i have a feeling if you're only getting to 1.07ish FG, that eis'ing this will be sickly sweet as you're just compounding the FG. if you really wanna go 20% or above, i'd use a much higher sugar percentage so you don't end up with alcoholic syrup, unless of course you're planning on using on pancakes

dcp27 said:

you can force carb anything, but i have a feeling if you're only getting to 1.07ish FG, that eis'ing this will be sickly sweet as you're just compounding the FG. if you really wanna go 20% or above, i'd use a much higher sugar percentage so you don't end up with alcoholic syrup, unless of course you're planning on using on pancakes

Click to expand...

Mmmmm beer syrup pancakes....... Sounds delicious. How much sugar would you recommend?

dcp27 said:

you can force carb anything, but i have a feeling if you're only getting to 1.07ish FG, that eis'ing this will be sickly sweet as you're just compounding the FG. if you really wanna go 20% or above, i'd use a much higher sugar percentage so you don't end up with alcoholic syrup, unless of course you're planning on using on pancakes

Click to expand...

+1 I was waiting for someone to say this! I can't see something that finishes at 1.07x being even remotely drinkable...

You probably want to finish 1.030 - 1.040 MAX, so calculate how much grain you need with your yeast attenuation to reach this FG, and then add as much sugar as you need, step fed, to reach the alcohol level you want.

FYI, I'm critiquing this brew a lot. I've changed everything. I'm using the same process as the dogfish 120 clone. I dropped the specialty malts down a little and raised my recipe. I'm doing 3 gallons instead of 1. I will have 15 lbs of grains left before I leave for 6 months so it should be perfect. I'll let you all know how brew day goes! I'm still about a month away though