What to do with stalled secondary fermentation?

3 weeks ago, I brewed a Milk Stout (LME recipe from Northern Brewer). The target O.G. was 1.051, and I nailed it perfectly.

For yeast, I used two packets of Safale S-04. I had a short but vigorous primary (1 bubble/second14 hours after brewing). It slowed down at 2.5 days, and was barely moving at 3.5 days. Temperature held at 68 degrees except for one day when it climbed to around 72 degrees.

After one week in primary, I transferred to secondary and took a gravity reading. 1.033, which is much higher than I expected.

Today, after two weeks in secondary, I took another gravity reading. 1.030

No foul smells or signs of infection. Tastes like it wants to be a stout.

What can I do? Add more yeast?

Thanks.

We need a lot more info. First, can you post your recipe? We could tell a lot more if we knew the recipe. Second, why did you rack to a secondary before primary fermentation was complete. Actually, I probably know why...the directions said to.
Without extra info, my stab at it would be that a lot of extract recipes seem to bottom out at 1.020. That, coupled with the lactose(assuming since its a milk stout) would add approx 9 gravity points to a 5 gallon batch if you added 1 lb of it. Lactose is not fermentable, so those 9 pts hang around thru FG. That puts you at 1.029. I'd say it might be done. Swirl it around a bit to resuspend some yeast, wait a week, then take gravity readings 3 days in a row. If they all match each other, then it's done.

Oh, and welcome to the forum BTW. Don't be afraid to ask a lot of questions.

This won't help the current situation but I would say in the future you should take the gravity reading before you rack to secondary. Wait until the FG is where you want it and then rack.

I've never re-pitched in secondary and have no idea what the implications might be but I guess in theory it should work. If there's still fermentable sugars in the wort, I would think the yeast would still be able to do something with it.

You transferred too early. You need to wait until primary fermentation before transferring to secondary. Take several readings over a few days and if they are near expected final range and stable, then transfer.

I would warm the temperature a bit and swirl the beer to try to restart fermentation. Then be prepared to wait a couple of weeks longer that originally planned. If fermentation does not start I guess you could pitch some more yeast

Just curious, but did you rehydrate the dry yeast before pitching? I've personally had much better results by doing this. But yea it would be helpful to see the recipe.

annasdadhockey said:

We need a lot more info. First, can you post your recipe? We could tell a lot more if we knew the recipe.

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The recipe is as shown here., except I used two S-04 packs instead of only 1.

annasdadhockey said:

Second, why did you rack to a secondary before primary fermentation was complete. Actually, I probably know why...the directions said to.

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Ouch.

I measured the gravity on 3 consecutive days in primary, and saw only .002 movement. Even though I wanted the gravity lower, I read (in this forum) that stouts finish slowly, sometimes taking a month or more to ferment out, so I decided it would be best to get the beer off the trub.

You don't ever really need to secondary unless you're adding fruit or doing a true secondary fermentation with brett, lacto, etc.

It will clear just fine in the primary and even 3+ months won't cause yeast autolysis with modern healthy yeasts in a carboy. Using 10th generation washed yeast or fermenting in a 25+ gallon conical, then ok, you may need to.

In terms of clearing, the yeast don't look down and say "dude it's way too crowded down there, I'm going to wait to flocculate until we get somewhere less crowded on the bottom"

dpbrew said:

...so I decided it would be best to get the beer off the trub.

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By trub, do you mean the healthy yeast cells that would have actually fermented it down further??

You racked too early. Never, ever rack a beer from the primary until you have the final gravity you want. Racking a beer at 1.033 is just going to stall it for good.

Noone seems to have mention that there should be no fermentation happening in secondary, that secondary is for clearing, fermentation should be complete before you rack over.

dpbrew said:

The recipe is as shown here., except I used two S-04 packs instead of only 1.
Ouch.

I measured the gravity on 3 consecutive days in primary, and saw only .002 movement. Even though I wanted the gravity lower, I read (in this forum) that stouts finish slowly, sometimes taking a month or more to ferment out, so I decided it would be best to get the beer off the trub.

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No ouch necessary, it wasn't meant as a dig of any kind. I don't know your brewing history, but a lot of new brewers tend to strictly follow the directions, which may not be for the best. Every fermentation is different, and no 1 set of directions can cover them all. Like a few others recommended, wait until you get to your terminal gravity before racking. If it doesn't get to terminal gravity in primary, then it may be stuck.
Hope that helps...Cheers

Revvy said:

Noone seems to have mention that there should be no fermentation happening in secondary, that secondary is for clearing, fermentation should be complete before you rack over.

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Not to hijack this thread but..


Just to make sure I'm not missing something important, this rule is true for ales but not lagers, correct?

I have only done a few lagers now but from what I have read, you want to rack to secondary after you have reached 75% of fermentation, then let the last 25% happen in secondary.

I wouldn't. A lager can stall just like an ale.

As was said before, secondaries are NEVER really necessary. You CAN do them if you want to dry hop, add fruit of Brett. But you don't need to. The benefit is you can harvest the yeast without getting the additions mixed in with it.

I do a one week secondary by racking onto gelatin and cold crashing. This is only if I want a beer as clear as possible.

For posterity's sake, in case anyone else finds this thread and wants to know how this turned out:

1. I waited another week to see if I would get any further reduction in gravity. Bottomed out at 1.029.
2. Contacted two other brewers who had made this same recipe. One bottomed at 1.026, the other at around 1.028
3. Bottled. Delicious. Received top marks at a local homebrew tasting.

So what did I learn from this process?
Obvious takeaways:

• Don't panic
• Calculate your target FG and measure toward that target

Possible takeaways:
Many brewers here questioned an early rack to secondary - some have suggested that secondary is typically not needed at all except for clarification. I don't have much good data to assess the validity of this advice, and there are definitely alternate viewpoints within the community.

For example, Jeremy Marshal, head brewer for Lagunitas, advises in a 2009 interview with Jamil Zainasheff: "I can't overemphasize the importance of prompt yeast removal. If you have a crop, it's only a week away from beginning to rot, so get the beer off the yeast as soon as you can" Marshal also suggests "Never be scared to do the yeast dump or pull the beer off the yeast, there's always plenty of yeast in suspension."

I intend to experiment with secondary timing and see for myself.

dpbrew said:

For example, Jeremy Marshal, head brewer for Lagunitas, advises in a 2009 interview with Jamil Zainasheff: "I can't overemphasize the importance of prompt yeast removal. If you have a crop, it's only a week away from beginning to rot, so get the beer off the yeast as soon as you can" Marshal also suggests "Never be scared to do the yeast dump or pull the beer off the yeast, there's always plenty of yeast in suspension."

I intend to experiment with secondary timing and see for myself.

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They're talking on the scale that commercial breweries brew here. Considering the batch size at a brewery like lagunita's, the pressure on the yeast in fermenters of that size is many times what we homebrewers experience. Autolysis is a real concern when fermenting that large a volume of wort. The myth of autolysis happening in the homebrewers fermenter in 3-4 weeks has mostly been disproven. Many of us primary our beers for a month or longer with only better beer to show for it. I've heard of guys leaving beers on the yeast cake ('trub') for months with great results. I personally primary for three-five weeks, based on style and my free time, and only secondary if I'm adding something like dry hops, spices, etc. that benefit from the beer being removed from the yeast. And I would never rack to secondary if FG was not reached and stable for at least a few days, or better yet, a week or so.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

They're talking on the scale that commercial breweries brew here...

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I do not dispute your findings from your process, or the good outcomes that result from it.

However, it appears that you are trying to refute my assertion that there are multiple viewpoints within the homebrew community by suggesting that Jeremy Marshal was not referring to homebrewers.

In fact, he was referring specifically to homebrew, responding to Jamil's question "Is there anything else that we should be thinking about when we attempt to brew this beer?"

It could be that Mr. Marshall is mistaken regarding this assertion - I have no data either way. As I mentioned above, I intend to experiment.

I have to agree with NB77. It's pretty much fact that you do not generally need to secondary. There is a minority of people who truly believe you must, some by choice some from being taught incorrectly. There are also people out there who don't immunize their children. There are always people out there giving advice contrary to reason, you just have to look at the whole picture to see who is who.

dpbrew said:

Many brewers here questioned an early rack to secondary - some have suggested that secondary is typically not needed at all except for clarification. I don't have much good data to assess the validity of this advice, and there are definitely alternate viewpoints within the community.

For example, Jeremy Marshal, head brewer for Lagunitas, advises in a 2009 interview with Jamil Zainasheff: "I can't overemphasize the importance of prompt yeast removal. If you have a crop, it's only a week away from beginning to rot, so get the beer off the yeast as soon as you can" Marshal also suggests "Never be scared to do the yeast dump or pull the beer off the yeast, there's always plenty of yeast in suspension."

I intend to experiment with secondary timing and see for myself.

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You don't have the "raw data" but we do, it's the most talked about thing on here. Even Jamil and Palmer advocate long primaries over secondaries these days.

I suggest you read THIS thread, it's become the "uber discussion" on this topic thread.

To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In .

Most everyone on this forum has ventured their opinions on the subject many many times, and most of them have ended up in the above thread. If you really do want opinions, and even some facts and citations, and articles, podcasts and other things on this topic, hit that thread.

Quite a lot of us leave our beers in primary 3-4 weeks.

And all the reasons why and everything else you can imagine is covered in that thread. Including the whole history of the debate/discussion and even the change in Palmer's view of it (which I think was greatly influenced by this forum. We were the first to openly discuss it, and to openly experiment with it, and to call shenanagans on the yeast/autolysis fear.

There's a million threads disdcussing this.