My first failed All Grain beer after 10 good?

I have done about 10 all grain batches and I think I have my first failure, all other came out fantastic. Tastes like rubber bands, maybe you guys can help me figure out where I went wrong. Funny thing is I did two beers that day back to back and the second one came out fantastic. I won't give the exact recopies since they were both about 50/50 wheat beers.

The one that failed was an expensive WLP500 Trappist ale yeast brew. The success was a German Munich yeast brew. Sorry for the lack of specifics but I have my notes at home. Both sat in the fermenter for 2 weeks, same place around 70 degrees. Both were bottled the same day and aged just less than 4 weeks. Last night I sampled both.

One thing I will say is these two were the first brews with my new turkey fryer which I had problems with getting a boil due to not knowing there was an air adjustment (another story solved). So, the WLP500 batch (bad batch) I did all in the turkey fryer pot but could not get a full boil even after 1.5 hours. The temp read well over 212 so I decided to stop there and cool. I used store brought hops.

On the second batch (good batch) I decided to split the batch in two and do half on the stove and I got a good boil in both pots. With this batch I used hops I grew. Odd thing is while the other batch was pretty clean on top when I went to bottle; this had a weird waxy looking film on top. I thought for sure if at all this was going to be the bad beer.

One thing I did different too was use the garden hose to fill the pots since I was outside anyway. But both used the hose water and only one came out like rubber bands.

I am guessing not getting a good full boil on the first batch. I never used WLP500 though, is this normal and it just needs to age longer than the German Munich?

Sorry for the long post.

I'd first question the health of that 500 yeast. Did you use a big enough starter? What was the OG?

My first thought was about the hose. Did you let the water run cold (or whatever it runs when you get all the old water out of the hose) before you filled pots for that first beer? If not, that might be why your beer tastes like rubber bands (or, as it were, the hose).


TL

jmo88 said:

I'd first question the health of that 500 yeast. Did you use a big enough starter? What was the OG?

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No starter but it did ferment vigorusly about the second day and then for a few days more slowly. I smelled good fermenting. Both were to be light, starting around 36-38 and finishing around 10. I didn't see any specific instructions for the use of the yeast really, like how long it should age.

TexLaw said:

My first thought was about the hose. Did you let the water run cold (or whatever it runs when you get all the old water out of the hose) before you filled pots for that first beer? If not, that might be why your beer tastes like rubber bands (or, as it were, the hose).


TL

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Wish I had taken notice of that, but no I did not run the water a long time but I did use it to rinse out the pot but that doesn't take much. I think my GF was doing something with the hose too, I remeber having to go get it from her but I don't remember if that was before, during or after the first batch of mash water was collected, or the sparge for that matter.

by 36 you mean 1.036, right? It seems like a starter isn't that necessary then. That is a very light beer, and the balance might have something to do with what your tasting, but now I'm puzzled. Many people associate that taste and aroma with Hot side aeration and autolysis. You might want to look into either of these issues to see if your process might be linked with them. Though most people disregard both of these as unlikely for most homebrewers.

As for the aging of your beer, that depends more on the gravity, the higher the longer.

Was the turkey pot brand spankin' new for the Trappist?

Not sure what a rubber band tastes like, but if it's similar to a band-aid type flavor this from John Palmer may help

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Medicinal
These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors.[/FONT]

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Do you use bleach based sanitizer? Is your water city chlorinated water?

jmo88 said:

by 36 you mean 1.036, right? It seems like a starter isn't that necessary then. That is a very light beer, and the balance might have something to do with what your tasting, but now I'm puzzled. Many people associate that taste and aroma with Hot side aeration and autolysis. You might want to look into either of these issues to see if your process might be linked with them. Though most people disregard both of these as unlikely for most homebrewers.

As for the aging of your beer, that depends more on the gravity, the higher the longer.

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Well, there is always a chance I did something wrong on that particular batch but I did two the same day and the second tastes wonderful as have all my other past brews.

R2-D2 said:

Was the turkey pot brand spankin' new for the Trappist?

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Yes, but I did rinse with a cleaner. Can't remember with what but something. No san star since it was all going to be boiled later.

HiGravShawn said:

Not sure what a rubber band tastes like, but if it's similar to a band-aid type flavor this from John Palmer may help



Do you use bleach based sanitizer? Is your water city chlorinated water?

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San Star. We have well water but since I took up all grain brewing after moving into the house they all used the same water. Our hot water smells like sulpher but I was told by a plumber that is due to the heater, not the well. Cold water does not smell and that is what I brew with.

jmo88 said:

by 36 you mean 1.036, right? It seems like a starter isn't that necessary then. That is a very light beer, and the balance might have something to do with what your tasting, but now I'm puzzled. Many people associate that taste and aroma with Hot side aeration and autolysis. You might want to look into either of these issues to see if your process might be linked with them. Though most people disregard both of these as unlikely for most homebrewers.

As for the aging of your beer, that depends more on the gravity, the higher the longer.

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Oh and yes, 1.036. I just drop off the other digits since it could not really be much else could it? I mean who is going to have 1.360, 1.0036 or 36.000?

HiGravShawn said:

Not sure what a rubber band tastes like, but if it's similar to a band-aid type flavor this from John Palmer may help



Do you use bleach based sanitizer? Is your water city chlorinated water?

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Take a bag of rubber bands and smell it and then imagine what that would taste like.

If the pot was aluminum and you did not build up a passive oxide layer before boiling your first brew then I think it would definitely taste weird, especially combined with the Belgain yeast strain. My understanding though is that the flavors taste metallic. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/passive-oxide-layer-new-aluminum-pot-110173/

R2-D2 said:

If the pot was aluminum and you did not build up a passive oxide layer before boiling your first brew then I think it would definitely taste weird, especially combined with the Belgain yeast strain. My understanding though is that the flavors taste metallic. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/passive-oxide-layer-new-aluminum-pot-110173/

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Well, if so that is good because it won't be happening again. After the first brew there was a change in the color of the finish inside. I hope maybe in time this beer will age well and the taste go away or at least mellow some enough to drink it. In the meantime I have the other brew to drink.

jgln said:

Oh and yes, 1.036. I just drop off the other digits since it could not really be much else could it? I mean who is going to have 1.360, 1.0036 or 36.000?

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Thought so but since you said it was Trappist I thought it'd be a high gravity. Could have been Plato.

Maybe the SG was too low for this yeast leaving behind off flavors? But then again it smelled good fermenting. Hope it comes out ok.

This is not the first time I have seen a post by someone stating that their beer tasted funny when using hose water. You can get foodgrade hoses.

Just FYI for others - food grade hose doesn't mean no-taste hose.

I bought several white food-grade hoses, everyone I tried I could still taste that hose flavor so I returned them all to the store. I ended up buying a roll of PEX pipe that they use to plumb houses with and put garden-hose ends on it. I detect no off-taste to the water with this hose. PEX is stiff and a bit hard to handle, but I only roll it out on brew day.

Ah, you know I just thought of something I did do different although not conclusive to the cause. It started out as a nice day but wound up getting quite windy and with the turkey fryer problems I did what is not recommended and brought it inside after my wind blocks were getting blown over. I know that is a no-no but I do not have a garage and it was just inside the door off the deck where I was brewing. I did have all the doors open (with screens) as well as the windows and as I said there was a strong breeze. But the thing is I do not remember is bringing the hose into the house to fill the pot for the second brew, I used jugs I filled from the sink. Maybe it was the hose after all?

Sounds to me that you need to let this one sit for a while. I would chalk the problem up to:
1: high fermentation temp (high end of WL trappist is 72F, you were likely at 75-80)
2: hasn't conditioned long enough
3: rubber hose

phatuna said:

Sounds to me that you need to let this one sit for a while. I would chalk the problem up to:
1: high fermentation temp (high end of WL trappist is 72F, you were likely at 75-80)
2: hasn't conditioned long enough
3: rubber hose

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Don't know about the 75-80 since I was not checking the wort but I know our house doesn't get that hot, we still had the AC on AUTO since the weather 6 weeks ago was still warm at times and it was not sitting in the sun, but maybe the top end though. Lately if anything it has been cool in the house, at least until the last few days but I doubt they count.

I was referring to your original post that mentioned that your ambient temp was about 70 degrees. fermenting beer produces heat, depending on the ferocity of the fermentation, my wort is typically 5 -10 degrees F warmer than ambient.

I know this beer is still young but to me still tastes nasty and has a strong aftertaste but is drinkable. I am at work and don't have my notes with me or remember the alcohol content but I think I remember 4%; I have yet to brew anything above 5%. But every time I sample one, usually with my regular canned light beer, this beer knocks me out, I dream vividly and wildly and I have a hard time waking up the next morning. I think I need to check my notes again; maybe the ABV is higher than I think or could there be some other reason for my reaction to just one maybe two of these things? Can something else have grown in it?

jgln said:

But every time I sample one, usually with my regular canned light beer, this beer knocks me out, I dream vividly and wildly and I have a hard time waking up the next morning.

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Love that quote.

btw, can normal food grade hoses leach chemicals?

MilwaukeeBrewGuy said:

Love that quote.

btw, can normal food grade hoses leach chemicals?

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Not quite sure why. I don't regularly drink much but Natural Lite so when I do decide to sample one it is usually around that time. Every once in a while I will drink just homebrew but they tend to be stronger so I can't drink as many and wind up in bed earlier, I would rather stay up later.

I am guessing no on the food grade, but not sure if you run boiling water through it. I used regular garden hose to get my water, but it was cold and not a new hose. Are you suggesting that is what is knocking me out?

well not necessarily from the hose the water was from since it was boiled. But my first impression was a chemical that is causing you to dream wildly. I mean i doubt one beer could do that to you unless a chemical got in there or you brewed with some indian spices.

As far as the taste, I would just let it continue to age and sample along the way.

The WHEEL says sulphur for a rubber band flavor.

What causes sulphur? How does it get in a brew?

did you attempt to boil with the lid on since you were having problems getting a good boil?

MilwaukeeBrewGuy said:

did you attempt to boil with the lid on since you were having problems getting a good boil?

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Yes, I did.

MilwaukeeBrewGuy said:

well not necessarily from the hose the water was from since it was boiled. But my first impression was a chemical that is causing you to dream wildly. I mean i doubt one beer could do that to you unless a chemical got in there or you brewed with some indian spices.

As far as the taste, I would just let it continue to age and sample along the way.

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Interesting thought, a mild poisioning?

possibly. If you feel it affecting you abnormally, I probably just wouldn't drink it. Maybe let it sit for a while and when you feel adventurous, try it again.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but i think the sulphur -nasty taste is coming from the fact that the lid was on during the boil.

Belgiums always make me super mellow. Not sure why.

On your runner flavor. Its the hose. Garden hoses leech cloride flavors and lead into the water. I brewed one batch of sweet stout that had this intense ruber flavor. It did get better after some time but it was never right.

I think that plus your strong ester profile are what's making the flavor you have.

For me its only bottled, RO or spring water for me.

Regarding the use of garden hoses to fill brew pots. You could be lead poisoning yourself. The hose manufacturers use lead to help make the PVC Flexible. They even put warning labels on them . If you must use a hose buy one that is rated for drinking. R/v and camper hoses are typically lead free and good for drinking.

http://www.independent.com/news/2008/mar/27/garden-hoses-safety/

MilwaukeeBrewGuy said:

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but i think the sulphur -nasty taste is coming from the fact that the lid was on during the boil.

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This is an interesting thought. Dimethyl Sulfide (DMS) is released during the boil. Between not getting a steady boil and leaving the lid on, you likely have a high concentration of DMS in your brew. That being said, however, DMS usually has a vegetable taste, like corn or cabbage, not rubber. Maybe the combination of this, plus high fermentation temps and the rubber hose created a 'hybrid' off-flavor like the one you're tasting.

It sounds like you didn't condition your Al pot before using it. When I boiled water in mine to condition it, the water I poured out looked really nasty. FYI. If the spoiled beer was the first thing to be boiled in there, that is almost certainly your problem.

Thanks, the stuff about lead in hoses I did not know, kind of crazy actually since most of us fill swiming pools with them and then soak for hours in the pool. Next time I am in the store I am going to look for warnings.

The covered pot and DMS is news to me too.

Yeah, I guess I should have boiled some water in the pot before using it first. I have done 2 more beers in this pot and they taste fine.