Sweet stout water- building from scratch

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diS

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I am brewing sweet stout this weekend and I have two options:

- use 100% RO water and manage water profile completely
- use RO and tap water in certain percentage

My tap water profile:

Code:
Ca- 170 ppm
Mg- 65 ppm
Na- 4 ppm
Cl- 13 ppm
SO4- 17 ppm
HCO2- 305 ppm

Grain bill (10 gal batch):
Code:
Pale malt- 6 kg
Crystal- 1 kg
Chocolate- 0,75 kg
Roasted barely- 0,50 kg

I read some articles about sweet stout water profile and I understand that I need sodium and chloride level between 100 and 150 ppm.
Greatest challenge is how to increase sodium, since I got only one source of sodium and that is baking soda, by reading general water artices I understood that we dont want great amount of baking soda in our water.

Second challenge is to add chloride and avoid pH decrease. I think I"ll solve it by mashing special grains (crystal, chocolate and roasted barely) separately and mix it in boil kettle.

What option would you choose (RO or mix) and how would you manage low sodium level?
 
I disagree with increasing the Na and Cl levels to the degree mentioned above. I recommend a much lower concentration for the Na and the Cl might approach 100 ppm.

An option to control the mash pH is to dilute the tap water only to the degree needed to produce an acceptable mash pH. Then use only RO water to sparge with. Then go back and recalculate what the actual RO water and tap water percentages are for the entire batch. Check to see if the overall ionic profile of the water will be acceptable. I see that the Mg is very high and that could produce negative flavor impacts if its over 20 to 30 ppm. Hopefully the overall dilution will reduce the Mg sufficiently.

Regarding Na and Cl addition, don't you have table salt or sea salt? That may be better than baking soda.
 
You do have a very convenient source of sodium and chloride: sodium chloride i.e. table salt. Be sure to use kosher or some other form that is not iodized as iodine is a yeast poison. Now chloride is a sweetener and a high chloride level may be entirely appropriate for this beer even at the level you mentioned but paired with sodium at that level you could be approaching the point where the beer will taste salty. This, of course, may be exactly what the person who formulated the recipe has in mind but I'd approach that level gradually. I'd suggest, assuming mostly RO, starting with 100 mg/L calcium chloride. This will get you a calcium level of 36 mg/L and chloride at 64. This should make a fine beer. Brew it and taste it. Then add some table salt. If you like the result then use sodium chloride in the next brew. You can also do the experiment with some calcium chloride. If you like the way it tastes with extra calcium chloride then use more calcium chloride in the next brew. Calcium chloride will get you more sweetness and body from the chloride with out the early onset of the salty taste that comes from sodium. Calcium does give a minerally taste but it's not quite the same.

As for pH control you are in that tricky region where you may or may not need alkali. It depends on how acidic the dark and crystal malts, and, really, the base malt too, are. The only way to know for sure is by use of a pH meter. To be on the safe side I'd dilute 4:1 with RO. This will leave you alkalinity at 60 which should be enough but again a pH meter would be the only way to know for sure. That will also give you an extra 34 mg/L calcium which can't hurt.
 
Thanks guys.
That is the reason why I didnt want to add sea salt since it is only source of Na (besides baking soda) that is currently available to me.

AJ, you gave me an idea, I think I"m gonna mix calcium chloride in 1L of RO water and then gradually add sea salt to notice threshold point.

I allways measure pH and I think it shouldnt be a problem.

And what about baking soda, is it worth a try?
 
If you find you need more sodium and are also low in pH then baking soda is a natural choice.

As far as pH is concerned if you have a meter you can do a test mash using a mix of the grains identical to what you will do in the whole mash. You can keep tweaking bicarbonate (or the proportion of non RO water) until the pH is right. If pH comes out high then don't worry about it unless it is quite high (above 5.6). Or you can add a little sauermalz or lactic acid.
 
I"d love to do a test mash and gradually adjust salts, but with kids and SWMBO on FT job, allowing myself a simple threshold taste test is five of a kind.

Since its a sweet/tasty beer I dont want extra astrigency from spec-grains husk and I"ll mash it separately, or add it @last 5 mins.

To be on safe side target pH is 5.5, according to EZwater it will probably be close but I"ll have lactic on hand and if needed adjust it after 1st pH sample.

So far, I have this on mind (without salt and baking soda)
Code:
RO water
CaCl2- 7 g
CaSO4- 5 g

Ca- 58 ppm
Mg- 2
Na- 0
Cl- 59
SO4- 48

What about Ca and bicarbonate, are they always preferable in these dark beers- regards to taste, not pH since it shouldn't be a problem?
 
I brewed it with above profile, we"ll see how it will turn out.
Thanks for help guys.
 
What did your PH end up being during the mash?

Also, isn't it true when doing darker beers from brown ales to stouts that you can keep the minerals out of the mash water (to help out that much more with keeping the PH from going lower depending on how many dark malts are in the grain bill) and add to the kettle for yeast health (50ppm Ca), and Cl for malt accentuation? I don't really like the idea of adding CaCO3 to the mash all that much.

I understand that you can always add the darker grains at vorlauf as well but my LHBS doesnt have a lot of the grains and when I asked Northern Brewer if they could bag the specialty grains separate I was told they could not, so that throws out the adding the grains at vorlauf.
 
I understand that you can always add the darker grains at vorlauf as well but my LHBS doesnt have a lot of the grains and when I asked Northern Brewer if they could bag the specialty grains separate I was told they could not, so that throws out the adding the grains at vorlauf.

They certainly can keep them separate. Tell them there are two separate grain bills in your order and that they are not to be combined. If they won't follow your instructions, you need to find a new supplier.
 
I'll probably have to order the grains separately instead of getting an already built all grain kit and tell them this is for two separate batches. Doesn't really seem like a big deal though but I'm sure they have their processes they have to follow.
 
What did your PH end up being during the mash?

Also, isn't it true when doing darker beers from brown ales to stouts that you can keep the minerals out of the mash water (to help out that much more with keeping the PH from going lower depending on how many dark malts are in the grain bill) and add to the kettle for yeast health (50ppm Ca), and Cl for malt accentuation? I don't really like the idea of adding CaCO3 to the mash all that much.

I understand that you can always add the darker grains at vorlauf as well but my LHBS doesnt have a lot of the grains and when I asked Northern Brewer if they could bag the specialty grains separate I was told they could not, so that throws out the adding the grains at vorlauf.

I ended pretty low- 5.3
My mistake was that I didn't look at mabrungard"s sheet and adjust it by both sheets, EZ water gave me 5.5 and mabrungard"s 5.3.

I steeped specialty grains separately and added wort in boil kettle. I"ll stick with adding it at vorlauf as I do usually- less job and simpler.
 
Adding all the dark stuff at vorlauf is what I think I'll do too from now on, as long as I can get the grains separated anyway.

I did an 80 shilling on Sept 22nd, used RO water and treated all the water (9gallons) with 8 grams CaCl. I checked the PH at about 15 minutes and it was 4.3 so I added 2 teaspoons of Carbonate to the mash and it brought it up around 5.2 and by the time I got done sparging it was 5.4. I tasted it this past weekend and it just seemed a little flat and watery even though the hydrometer still had it at 1.022, but had a really nice malty flavor. I also mashed in a Blichmann at 154 but the temp dropped down to 149 so I think that might have something to do with the less mouthfeel I'm getting. Looking forward to seeing what a little carbonation does to the mouthfeel though.
 
What was your grain bill?
4.3 is pretty low.. I suppose that was with special grains.
In what form you added carbonate?
 
It was a NB kit:

-- 9 lbs. British Golden Promise
-- 1 lbs English Medium Crystal

S-33 Safale Yeast fermented at 62F

There really wasnt too many special grains though but I guess it was enough to really pull down the PH when using distilled water. The Calcium Carbonate was the powder I got from LHBS.
 
Maybe I am misleading something, but with this grain bill and water treatment you couldn't end that low w/pH.
Are you sure you calibrated pH meter properly?
 
Maybe I am misleading something, but with this grain bill and water treatment you couldn't end that low w/pH.
Are you sure you calibrated pH meter properly?

I agree. It's absolutely impossible to have a pH of 4.3 in the mash. Adding the carbonate doesn't do anything (it has to be dissolved in water, bubbled with co2, etc), so that was the "real" pH all along. You must have just had a bad reading the first time.
 
I calibrate it every time I use it with 7.0 or 4.0 PH calibration solution, the meter is very easy to calibrate. I always use fresh solution and it never gets put back into the bottle, rinsed with distilled water after I check the mash, and stored in storage solution. The SRM was 10 but that's really not all that dark. I'll have to brew it again and see what I get.
 
I agree that it would be difficult to bring a mash pH into the low 4's without an external acid addition. I have brewed a rather acidic Mild Ale grist that included 20% crystal and 5% roast malts with straight RO water and the pH fell to 4.9 before I added the dose of pickling lime that Bru'n Water said I needed. That was an extreme grist and most grists are not going to be as acidic as that one. The 4.3 pH measurement was probably an error of some sort.
 
I hope it was and error of some sort in the readings. I'll brew it again but this time I'm going to find a supplier that will separate the dark grains out and I can add them at vorlauf. Or I might do it the same way to see if I get different readings.
 
Last time I brewed I tried to take a mash pH reading at twenty minutes and it was crazily low, 4-something. I just figured that whatever chemistry was going on wasn’t complete and I had a bad indication.

I mash in the oven so it’s difficult to pull samples. Out of the lauter tun, it was 5.3. I suppose the right way to do it is to pull the mash pot out of the oven, stir it well, take a sample, put it back in the oven. Too much trouble.

Then again, if y’all say it’s not possible, maybe I had a contaminated container, maybe a little StarSan. It was a pretty small sample. I do rinse the electrode with RO from a spray bottle.
 
The reactions do take some time to complete so pH usually gradually declines over 20 minutes and even a bit longer but most of the decrease should have taken place after 20 minutes. To decrease 0.4 or more from that point on would be most unusual and suggests that indeed there was something wrong with the 20 minute reading. Certainly some residual phosphoric acid could throw the reading off. Whenever you get a reading that causes you a raised eyebrow you should repeat it and if is still off a cal check on the meter is in order. An important part of using a pH meter is knowing when not to believe it.

I have had pH readings under 5 in mashes that use sauermalz. I theorize that the lactic acid on the surface of the malt is washed off at strike and is responsible for the low reading. Within a few minutes, however, this acid has a chance to react with bases in the othe malts and the pH goes up starting to level off at around 20 minutes.
 
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