First big beer attempt, wanting some advice

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Ryanh1801

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Messages
2,667
Reaction score
14
Location
Addison,TX
Well after Fathers day weekend, my dad was asking why I had not made a "big beer" yet. I told him manly because I did not have a big enough mash turn. Well he went and got me one. So I now have a 10 gallon cooler and a 5 gallon hot liquor tank. I plan on brewing this on sun. My main question is how soon should I start the starter? I only have 4 oz. of DME to work with. also since I only have a 30qt. pot so im going to have to collect the extra wort into another container until I have boiled down a few gallons. I don't see any reason why this would not work. Am I correct in thinking this? Im doing BP Water into barleywine, just with a little more grain to make up for my bad efficiency. Would you go with a single infusion or should I step mash it by decocation? I just want this to be the best it can be since I plan on aging it until Christmas. Thanks for any opinions or advice you have to give. Here is the recipe I am brewing.

--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 5.72 gal
Estimated OG: 1.110 SG
Estimated Color: 17.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 74.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
12.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 55.8 %
5.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 23.3 %
2.50 lb Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM) Grain 11.6 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 2.3 %
0.50 lb Cyrstal 55L (55.0 SRM) Grain 2.3 %
2.00 oz Chinook [13.00%] (60 min) Hops 59.1 IBU
1.33 oz Northern Brewer [8.50%] (20 min) Hops 15.5 IBU
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50%] (0 min) Hops -
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50%] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -
1.00 lb Maple Syrup (35.0 SRM) Sugar 4.7 %
1 Pkgs California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) Yeast-Ale
 
If you don;t have the DME to step up a starter, I'd make a quart starter 24 hours ahead, so it's at high krausen when you pitch.

I wouldn't fool around with decocting this...your decoctions will be enormous. Nail it as an infusion, and then decoct it next time if you want.

Finally, 70% efficiency is pretty optimistic for this much grain, especially if you don't normally get good efficiency. You'll probably have to collect 10+ gallons of wort to even have a chance. By way of example, I was routinely getting 75%, and when I brewed my BW (also 20# of grain) I got 62%, mostly because I wanted to keep the boil to 7 gal.
 
Bike N Brew said:
If you don;t have the DME to step up a starter, I'd make a quart starter 24 hours ahead, so it's at high krausen when you pitch.

I wouldn't fool around with decocting this...your decoctions will be enormous. Nail it as an infusion, and then decoct it next time if you want.

Finally, 70% efficiency is pretty optimistic for this much grain, especially if you don't normally get good efficiency. You'll probably have to collect 10+ gallons of wort to even have a chance. By way of example, I was routinely getting 75%, and when I brewed my BW (also 20# of grain) I got 62%, mostly because I wanted to keep the boil to 7 gal.

First off thanks for the advice. What would you do for water to DME ratio? Im pretty clueless when it comes to starters I have only done one so far. Well I have figured out my efficiency is from my bad grain crush at my LHBS. My First all grain when I had no idea what I was doing and sparged with about 1/3 of the water I should have I got 65% from AHB. I order all my grains from AHB for this batch. So im just hoping to get decent efficiency I am planing on getting around 10 gallons of wort, (although i still have not worked out the math). I am also probebly not going to start my 60 min. until im at 5.5 gallons so I will have just under 5 gallons when im done. Woo this is going to be a long brew day.
 
If you plan on collecting xtra wort in a second pot. It shouldn't sit while you make room in your main boiler. You need to get the xtra pot on a 2nd burner. Adding cool wort to the main pot will kill the boil thus screwing with your hop schedule
 
If you have an extra pot, say a 20qt canner, you can start boiling the extra wort on the stove to help reduce the volume faster. This is what I did on my first AG when I sparged with too much water. After 30min I was able to combine the two pots and start my 60mins. It may take you a little longer.

Craig
 
Got Trub? said:
I don't want to rain on your brew day but a 1 quart starter will be a major underpitch for such a big beer. Using Jamil's calculator (http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html) you need a gallon...

True, but if a quart is the most you can make with materials on hand, and you want to brew, I wouldn't let that stop me. Other than when I pitch on a yeast cake, every batch I make is underpitched according to that calculator (as are many others brewed by people on this board).

Make a good starter, pitch at high krausen, and get lots of oxygen into the wort and you should be fine.
 
In that case, there's a few more options and a few more days. I'd either grab a few more vials of yeast from the homebrew store (seems there's a few close to Arlington), visit a brewpub/brewery and ask for some yeast, or call a brew buddy and ask if they have some they could spare. His expected OG is 1.110, not 1.080 or 1.090
shocked-smiley-9490.gif


DEFINITELY oxygenate and don't expect much more than 50% efficiency. And be really patient. ;)

Good luck! :mug:
 
Im suppose to go to a local brewery on sat. for a tour and tasting so I might see if I can get some yeast from them. Thanks for the info. guys.
 
photogscott said:
If you plan on collecting xtra wort in a second pot. It shouldn't sit while you make room in your main boiler. You need to get the xtra pot on a 2nd burner. Adding cool wort to the main pot will kill the boil thus screwing with your hop schedule


I was planing on adding the extra before I started my hop schedule.
 
Ryanh1801 said:
Im suppose to go to a local brewery on sat. for a tour and tasting so I might see if I can get some yeast from them. Thanks for the info. guys.

You're golden, then! :D Just bring a sanitized jar/growler/whatever. I've only heard of one instance where the brewmaster was a dick and refused to give out yeast. Every other time, they were more than happy to do so...they waste more yeast than we use. :drunk:

Cheers!!
 
FireBrewer said:
In that case, there's a few more options and a few more days. I'd either grab a few more vials of yeast from the homebrew store (seems there's a few close to Arlington), visit a brewpub/brewery and ask for some yeast, or call a brew buddy and ask if they have some they could spare. His expected OG is 1.110, not 1.080 or 1.090
shocked-smiley-9490.gif



DEFINITELY oxygenate and don't expect much more than 50% efficiency. And be really patient. ;)

Good luck! :mug:

I figured when the OP said he only had 4 oz of DME to work with, a trip to the LHBS was out of the question. Of course, if he can get the material for a bigger starter, that's the way to go.

Why would you only expect 50% efficiency?
 
Bike N Brew said:
Why would you only expect 50% efficiency?

Seems to be the case with high-gravity beers. Remember reading that somewhere and that's been the case every time I've brewed a barleywine or dopplebock with that high of an OG. Plus he has a 10 gallon cooler...I use a 15.5 gallon keg and 23.5 pounds of grain (like he's using) is pushing the comfort level...that's a mash volume of 9.22 gallons.
 
Time will only tell im going to go into it with an optimistic outlook. UPS just came by and dropped of my grains. The barley wine grain bag is almost three times the size of my WIT grains.
 
FireBrewer said:
Seems to be the case with high-gravity beers. Remember reading that somewhere and that's been the case every time I've brewed a barleywine or dopplebock with that high of an OG. Plus he has a 10 gallon cooler...I use a 15.5 gallon keg and 23.5 pounds of grain (like he's using) is pushing the comfort level...that's a mash volume of 9.22 gallons.

Really depends on your sparge water volume. If you're willing to sparge close to the "optimum" 0.5 gallons per lb of grain (and then do A LOT of boiling) you should be able to get close to your usual efficiency.

I agree that if you're tryng to stick to your usual 6.5 or 7.0 gallon boil, your efficiency will suffer.
 
Bike N Brew said:
Really depends on your sparge water volume. If you're willing to sparge close to the "optimum" 0.5 gallons per lb of grain (and then do A LOT of boiling) you should be able to get close to your usual efficiency.

2 qts/pound (0.5 gallons/lb) seems kinda thin to me (I usually run 1.3-1.5) but if it worked for you, hey, I'm not going to knock it. Sounds worth trying. :mug:

Please keep us posted, Ryan!
 
FireBrewer said:
2 qts/pound (0.5 gallons/lb) seems kinda thin to me (I usually run 1.3-1.5) but if it worked for you, hey, I'm not going to knock it. Sounds worth trying. :mug:

Please keep us posted, Ryan!

Will do, Im going to work out the math sat. night and start brewing. Im sure with my equipment it is going to be at least a 10 hour brew day if not more. Thanks for all the helpful suggestions, Pictures and notes to come.
 
Ryan said:
Im sure with my equipment it is going to be at least a 10 hour brew day if not more.

May not take that long but that's what you tell the SWMBO. ;)

Trappist Artist said:
2 qts/lbs I think is quoted from How To Brew...some one back me up on this please!

From How To Brew:

There are two other factors besides temperature that affect the amylase enzyme activity. These are the grist/water ratio and pH. Beta amylase is favored by a low wort pH, about 5.0. Alpha is favored by a higher pH, about 5.7. However, a beta-optimum wort is not a very fermentable wort, leaving a lot of amylopectin starch unconverted; alpha amylase is needed to break up the larger chains so beta can work on them. Likewise, an alpha-optimum wort will not have a high percentage of maltose but instead will have a random distribution of sugars of varying complexity. Therefore, a compromise is made between the two enzyme optimums.

Brewing salts can be used to raise or lower the mash pH but these salts can only be used to a limited extent because they also affect the flavor. Water treatment is an involved topic and will be discussed in more detail in the next chapter. For the beginning masher, it is often better to let the pH do what it will and work the other variables around it, as long as your water is not extremely soft or hard. Malt selection can do as much or more to influence the pH as using salts in many situations. The pH of the mash or wort runnings can be checked with pH test papers sold at brewshops, and pool supply stores.

The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature.

As always, time changes everything; it is the final factor in the mash. Starch conversion may be complete in only 30 minutes, so that during the remainder of a 60 minute mash, the brewer is working the mash conditions to produce the desired profile of wort sugars. Depending on the mash pH, water ratio and temperature, the time required to complete the mash can vary from under 30 minutes to over 90. At a higher temperature, a stiffer mash and a higher pH, the alpha amylase is favored and starch conversion will be complete in 30 minutes or less. Longer times at these conditions will allow the beta amylase time to breakdown more of the longer sugars into shorter ones, resulting in a more fermentable wort, but these alpha-favoring conditions are deactivating the beta; such a mash is self-limiting.

A compromise of all factors yields the standard mash conditions for most homebrewers: a mash ratio of about 1.5 quarts of water per pound grain, pH of 5.3, temperature of 150-155F and a time of about one hour. These conditions yield a wort with a nice maltiness and good fermentability.

References
Fix, G., Principles of Brewing Science, Brewers Publications, Boulder Colorado, 1989.

Moll, M., Beers and Coolers, Intercept LTD, Andover, Hampshire England, 1994.

Noonen, G., New Brewing Lager Beer, Brewers Publications, Boulder Colorado, 1996.

Maney, L., personal communication, 1999.

Lewis, M. J., Young, T.W., Brewing, Chapman & Hall, New York, 1995.

Briggs, D. E., Hough, J. S., Stevens, R., and Young, T. W., Malting and Brewing Science, Vol. 1, Chapman & Hall, London, 1981.

Wahl, R., Henrius, M., The American Handy Book of the Brewing, Malting, and Auxiliary Trades, Vol. 1, Chicago, 1908.

Broderick, H. M., ed., The Practical Brewer - A Manual for the Brewing Industry, Master Brewers Association of the Americas, Madison Wisconsin, 1977.
 
FireBrewer said:
2 qts/pound (0.5 gallons/lb) seems kinda thin to me (I usually run 1.3-1.5) but if it worked for you, hey, I'm not going to knock it. Sounds worth trying. :mug:

Please keep us posted, Ryan!

The 2 qts/lb I'm talking about is sparge water. You're talking about mash water.
 
I have read, not partook, that when making a big beer you can Add the Wort over a long period so as not to poop out the yeast.

You pitch your starter into 1/2 of the batch and as soon as the ferment slows you add another 1-2 qts of wort(week or 2), then repeat until it is all finished up. This keeps your yeast from getting fat and lazy. You can keep the wort in mason jars and sealed until you need them (refriderate them close to 32) It takes a longer but the results will be great. I understand that this helps hide the harsh flavor of the alcohol also.

Good luck with it.
 
Back
Top