Was just reading the Cascadian Dark Ale article in the most recent BYO and was wondering why not add a couple more styles to the mix. If a CDA is essentially a dark American IPA (defined by citrusy American hops), why not also add Britannian Dark Ale for dark English IPA, characterized by English hops? And why not a Germanic Dark Ale - though maybe we should first start with a Germanic IPA (Continental IPA?)
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Six_O_Turbo
Well-Known Member
I suppose you could if those proposed styles became popular...
SumnerH
Well-Known Member
Because the Germans don't historically make barley ales. The only 2 exceptions are the 2 hybrid pseudo-lagers (kolsches and altbiers).
They've already got schwarzbier to cover dark lagers.
The only straight ales they make are non-barley beers. There's already a dunkelweizen style to embrace dark wheat beers. I guess the next dark variant of a German beer that makes sense would be a dunkelroggen (dark rye).
Styles are added as variations emerge and become popular. If those styles became popular they might be added. I'd personally like to see an addition in the strong ale category. Think Stone Arrogant Bastard. The strong ale category goes from old ales right into Barleywines. There needs to be a style just for strong ales or stock ales that covers a high gravity ale that is not long aged. They try to capture that in old ales, but old ales talks too much about flavors and colors of aging and oxidation.
smizak
Well-Known Member
I hope the name Cascadian Dark Ale goes away along with those disgusting IPA's made with Belgian yeast...Ugh I can't wait for that fad to die completely. Just call it a freaking Black IPA, it doesn't need it's own style guideline, it isn't a defining style representing a beer culture or history. It's just lame.
I was actually a bit surprised when they proposed adding cascadian dark ale. I'm with you smizak on just calling it what it is, a Black IPA. I've enjoyed IPAs made with belgian yeasts, but definitely don't feel it needs a style category of it's own.
Next proposed style I see on the horizon is American Wild Ale. Sour is the new IPA and breweries like Russian River and Jolly Pumpkin are doing some cool stuff with the wild yeasts.
Next proposed style I see on the horizon is American Wild Ale. Sour is the new IPA and breweries like Russian River and Jolly Pumpkin are doing some cool stuff with the wild yeasts.
smizak
Well-Known Member
That I'm a little more on board with. There is nothing like those beers anywhere in the world, and they are truly artisanal examples. Very unique, and have generated a new viewpoint of beer in the States as a "gourmet" food item. Just adding some de-husked Carafa to an IPA doesn't do that for me.
I've never been lucky enough to try a Russian River beer, but I can get Jolly Pumpkin here in Buffalo, and I absolutely love them. The Calabaza Blanca after busting my a$$ in my lawn and garden a month ago was the most refreshing beer I've ever had.
I'm not a fan of the term Cascadian Dark Ale. I brewed up an American Stout, and while not exactly a beer of that style, it was close. I called it a Black IPA, or Strong American Stout.
You simply cannot create a name and style category for every beer there is. The possibilities are endless. The BJCP styles cover the popular categories because they are useful for judging the skill of the brewer, not because a beer sitting between two styles isn't a really good beer. They also have a couple of categories to encompass as many of those non-category beers as possible, simply to try and include beer that won't win a medal in a traditional category, and to encourage innovation.
But when a style emerges, such as a Dark IPA, it warrants consideration of inclusion into the style guidelines. I fully expect to see wild yeast categories in the future if they could ever agree to exactly what defines the style.
You simply cannot create a name and style category for every beer there is. The possibilities are endless. The BJCP styles cover the popular categories because they are useful for judging the skill of the brewer, not because a beer sitting between two styles isn't a really good beer. They also have a couple of categories to encompass as many of those non-category beers as possible, simply to try and include beer that won't win a medal in a traditional category, and to encourage innovation.
But when a style emerges, such as a Dark IPA, it warrants consideration of inclusion into the style guidelines. I fully expect to see wild yeast categories in the future if they could ever agree to exactly what defines the style.
I've been attempting to get my paws on some Supplication, but again the same problem in MD, very limited distribution of RR. I've been meaning to pick up a bottle of Allagash's Confluence, but am trying to get over sticker shock. You tried any of Allagash's wilds?
Black IPA == Black India Pale Ale
I can't be the only person that sees a problem with that name.
I can't be the only person that sees a problem with that name.
smizak
Well-Known Member
I've never tried Confluence, too pricey, and the buyer at the store I frequent has said it's a little unremarkable. I trust his palate. Do they have any other sours commercially available?
smizak
Well-Known Member
Black IPA == Black India Pale Ale
I can't be the only person that sees a problem with that name.
Call it whatever you want, I just can't justify creating a BJCP style guideline for it.
Why?
remilard
Well-Known Member
Black IPA == Black India Pale Ale
I can't be the only person that sees a problem with that name.
Good point, they aren't made in India. That is just silly.
As mentioned before in this thread, seems like more of a fad than anything else. I could add some carafa special to a Belgian Tripel and we can create a new guideline style: Belgian Dark Tripel.
ShortSnoutBrewing
Kwanesum Chinook Illahee
I think there should be a new style guideline for the variations of IPA's. A more broad one though. A specialty IPA (14-D) to clean up some of the mess in Cat. 23.
I do believe in the CDA name and the movement, but not sure it demands it's own category. BA has settled on American Style India Ale. Not feeling that one though either.
I do believe in the CDA name and the movement, but not sure it demands it's own category. BA has settled on American Style India Ale. Not feeling that one though either.
Interlude is the only other one I know of and I think it's almost equally as pricey.
http://www.allagash.com/interlude.htm
As mentioned before in this thread, seems like more of a fad than anything else. I could add some carafa special to a Belgian Tripel and we can create a new guideline style: Belgian Dark Tripel.
I'm an active BJCP judge, and at least in the competitions that I've been judging over the last few years, there is definite need for some form of style clarification with the IPA category. I've thought a solution along the lines of Kilted Brewers suggested would work - 14-D Specialty IPA.
I also find that kilted brewer's suggestion makes more sense. It seems the BJCP has drug their feet on bringing other styles to recognition quickly, whereas CDA kind of surprised me. We haven't even had a whole lot of examples of CDAs here on the east coast, so maybe it's just a skewed geographic perception.
Officially the BJCP has not yet recognized CDA as a style. I would be surprised if they do so any time soon. As you mentioned, the BJCP isn't known for quick style definitions. Mostly, for the same reasons that you expressed earlier. Concern of fads, as well as the concern of over defining the style guidelines.
It very well could be a East/West coast thing. I know here in Seattle, it seems (anecdotally of course) that every Brewery is making sort of hoppy black ale. Although, as has been noted in either this, or one the other multiple CDA threads, Greg Noonan is credited with starting the "style" in his Vermont brewpub.
There is a bit of sticker shock on Supplication as well. I think it was like $14 for a 12 oz bottle. I understand the higher pricing on the sours. It has to do with the amount of time that those beers need to sit and develope using valuable fermentation and storage space, also the skill of proper blending, and the additional sanitation and risk of having those bugs in your house and having to keep them isolated from your more traditional beers. Still, being old school it takes a minute or two to come to terms with what would be an $80 six pack.
carnevoodoo
Well-Known Member
There is a bit of sticker shock on Supplication as well. I think it was like $14 for a 12 oz bottle. I understand the higher pricing on the sours. It has to do with the amount of time that those beers need to sit and develope using valuable fermentation and storage space, also the skill of proper blending, and the additional sanitation and risk of having those bugs in your house and having to keep them isolated from your more traditional beers. Still, being old school it takes a minute or two to come to terms with what would be an $80 six pack.
Down here, Supplication is about 12 bucks for the 12.6 ounce bottle, so it comes out to about a dollar an ounce. That is sort of my threshold for beer like this, and I'm glad to pay it to Russian River. I do think that a good bottle of Consecration is better, but I wouldn't pass on either.
And yeah, it isn't your typical beer you buy in a 6 pack, but it isn't typical in any manner.
OP
OP
JLem
Well-Known Member
This was my thought too - maybe it's my east coast perspective/bias, but I am not sure that I have seen so many CDA-like beers to justify a true style. Perhaps I just need to wait a few years to see if CDAs take hold or are the fad I think they probably are. I'm not sure about "Specialty IPA" either - wouldn't those beers just go into category 23?
carnevoodoo
Well-Known Member
The only problem with lumping them into cat. 23 now is that every ****** in Oregon enters one now, so you have a category overrun by some new fad style that clutters up an otherwise inventive category.
I actually prefer the sound of Cascadian Dark Ale much more than Black IPA.
carnevoodoo
Well-Known Member
yeah, well... A lot of people think it sounds silly and pretentious. I don't want beer being as froofy as wine. American Black Ale is DEAD on. Let's use it.
ShortSnoutBrewing
Kwanesum Chinook Illahee
There you go again voodoo...Calling everybody names...And you do realize Cascadia is comprised of BC, WA, OR, and NorCal? Why you always hatin' on Oregonians?
The problem with Cat 23 is it's a catch all. You have everything from pales, to stouts, lagers to ales, sours, etc. I just think it's a jumbled mess. No harm in spreading it out a little.
The problem with Cat 23 is it's a catch all. You have everything from pales, to stouts, lagers to ales, sours, etc. I just think it's a jumbled mess. No harm in spreading it out a little.
knightbeer39
Well-Known Member
^^ Me too. Change is never embraced easily by all.
I am actually intrigued by this and will be brewing one of the recipes from the most recent zymurgy to give it a try. I haven't seen any commercial versions here in southern NM, but I'll keep looking.
smizak
Well-Known Member
American Black Ale I can deal with. Black IPA is just not right. I don't quite understand why American IPA's are called IPA's anyway. It's not like we are actually hopping up our Pale Ales so they can make the journey to India. I guess I just don't agree with the term India Pale Ale at all.
carnevoodoo
Well-Known Member
Well, then Imperial Stout doesn't make sense to you either? IPA is a historical term. I understand that. Putting "Imperial" in front of everything these days is just as ridiculous, but it serves a purpose. You know what you're getting.
If someone with no prior knowledge of all this were to ask you what you were drinking and you said, "black IPA", they'd understand. When people ask what an American Black Ale is, you'll probably just say, "well, it is just a black IPA" because that's the easiest way to define it. At this point "IPA" has no base in history. It is just a style definition that is easy to understand. Worrying so much about the implications of How the I and the P don't make sense is really just nitpicking.
WORD. 10chars
smizak
Well-Known Member
Peoples is being way too literal up in this thread.
IMO, a classic style needs some history or a story for it to be real. I can give people an interesting story about Saison, or Belgian Dubbel, or Bohemian Pilsner. Those beers were brewed that way because the geography/climate/resources/culture dictated them to be brewed that way. They had to be. Even the term "American IPA" has merit to me, it's a big, bold, brash style of beer brewed with distinctive American hops that punches you in the face. It's very American, and it's a unique beer, more than a slight recipe tweak. It's become the representative beer of our brewing culture. A "Cascadian Dark Ale" has no story other than some guy throwing some Carafa Special into an American IPA.
IMO, a classic style needs some history or a story for it to be real. I can give people an interesting story about Saison, or Belgian Dubbel, or Bohemian Pilsner. Those beers were brewed that way because the geography/climate/resources/culture dictated them to be brewed that way. They had to be. Even the term "American IPA" has merit to me, it's a big, bold, brash style of beer brewed with distinctive American hops that punches you in the face. It's very American, and it's a unique beer, more than a slight recipe tweak. It's become the representative beer of our brewing culture. A "Cascadian Dark Ale" has no story other than some guy throwing some Carafa Special into an American IPA.
SumnerH
Well-Known Member
Gargamel had a limited release but it's virtually impossible to find old bottles now.
The coolship stuff, Rosa, and a few others have shown up sporadically at special events.
thataintchicken
Well-Known Member
I'll admit. it's a silly name.
A Black IPA is just that.... a black IPA.
Loved the Widmer W'10. Thoroughly enjoyed the NW CDA's that I have been able to try.
Teh Stone Self-Righteous nails the style IMHO.
my own recipe resembles the Deschutes Hop In The Dark.
which is not a bad thing.
A Black IPA is just that.... a black IPA.
Loved the Widmer W'10. Thoroughly enjoyed the NW CDA's that I have been able to try.
Teh Stone Self-Righteous nails the style IMHO.
my own recipe resembles the Deschutes Hop In The Dark.
which is not a bad thing.
When I watched the video for making of their first lambic, I got all giddy when they were filling that coolship. I was like, "I soooo wanna do that at home one day". Does that make me a beer dork? :cross:
billvon
Well-Known Member
Black IPA == Black India Pale Ale
I can't be the only person that sees a problem with that name.
Recently had a Scottish Belgian Black India Pale Ale. You can't think about it too much.
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