Saison Season?

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BrandonBrews

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I was thinking I'd like to embrace these high temperatures and brew a Saison, something I haven't tried before. I have never tried to formulate a recipe before so this is a total stab in the dark. Any feedback would be appreciated. I do not want to add spices or peels this time though, that is something I will experiment with later. I will not be able to do a lot to adjust fermentation temperatures either. I also like to keep thing simple...sometimes.:)

Wyeast 3711

5lbs Belgian Pils
3lbs 2 row
2lbs White Wheat Malt

1 lb Table sugar

1 oz Willamette 60 min
1/2 oz Mt Hood 30 min
1/2 oz Mt Hood 5 min

70 minute single mash @ 150°F
10 minute mash out @168°F
 
I would say nix the table sugar and add a pound of pils. The sugar wont really be needed unless you intend to make it very dry which I wouldnt blame you in the least. To each his own.
 
The living recipe:

Wyeast 3711

6lbs Belgian Pils
3lbs 2 row
2lbs White Wheat Malt

1 oz Willamette 60 min
1/2 oz Mt Hood 30 min
1/2 oz Mt Hood 5 min

70 minute single mash @ 150°F
10 minute mash out @168°F

Any other suggestions?
 
I brewed a saison with 3711 about 6 weeks ago, really similar malt bill but added .5 lb acidulated malt- comes through with a nice quenching tart- crisp feel, really like it. 3711 will dry almost anything out, no need for sugar-

you can mash at 154F to try to develop some body-

mine is still fermenting slightly in the keg, even after cold conditioning and storing at 44F. finished quite clear, the yeast floccs fairly well, just the slightest haze from the wheat. looks pils-like.
 
I brewed a saison with 3711 about 6 weeks ago, really similar malt bill but added .5 lb acidulated malt- comes through with a nice quenching tart- crisp feel, really like it. 3711 will dry almost anything out, no need for sugar-

you can mash at 154F to try to develop some body-

mine is still fermenting slightly in the keg, even after cold conditioning and storing at 44F. finished quite clear, the yeast floccs fairly well, just the slightest haze from the wheat. looks pils-like.

did you add the acid malt late in the mash or from the start?
 
I did a saison close to the Kill Devil recipe, did ten gallons, 5 at 68 and 5 at ambient, which got into the 90's. I used 3711 and the temp controlled batch quit at 1.020. I took it out of the ferm chamber and two days later, it was 1.000. The batch that had no temp control at all was the one I preferred. The temp controlled batch was tasty too but but less spicy and saisony(?).
 
I disagree, I would use the sugar. But that's just me. It will help dry it out a bit, which is really where you want a saison to be. But if you aren't starting with a really high gravity anyway then it's probably not that necessary.
 
edmanster-

the acid malt was added from the start- mashed at 150F for 90 minutes (length of time was to gain extract efficiency)

Full recipe:


10# Moravian Pils- Floor Malted
.5# Acidulated Malt
.5# 17Deg Belgian 2 Row (basically toasted malt)

1 oz Sterling, Whole, 7.0%, 60 Minutes
.5 oz Homegrown Saaz, %AA unknown, 30 Minutes
.35 oz Homegrown Saaz, %AA unknown, 10 Minutes

OG 1.054, hit 1.007 in only 5 days @ 70F !
 
edmanster-

the acid malt was added from the start- mashed at 150F for 90 minutes (length of time was to gain extract efficiency)

Full recipe:


10# Moravian Pils- Floor Malted
.5# Acidulated Malt
.5# 17Deg Belgian 2 Row (basically toasted malt)

1 oz Sterling, Whole, 7.0%, 60 Minutes
.5 oz Homegrown Saaz, %AA unknown, 30 Minutes
.35 oz Homegrown Saaz, %AA unknown, 10 Minutes

OG 1.054, hit 1.007 in only 5 days @ 70F !
:off:
thanks.. been looking into doing a sour mash rather than lacto at fermentation to get a tart so i wouldnt need to worry about spreading it around acidently.. so the tart was fine after the boil?:off:
 
The O.P. stated a desire to take advantage of the higher ambient temps of summer to exploit the saison-y character of 3711, something i have only done with 3724, with success.

I have read that the 3711 creates a nice profile at higher temps. it ferments quickly regardless of temp.

the 3711 at low temp gives some definably saison character, but it is clean, and when used to brew a crisper ale, it does the job well. the acid malt lends the exact variety of acidity that a lactic or sour mash would, but is totally controllable. at .5# / 5 gal, it is clearly present but not quite like a berliner. i would go up to 1#/ 5 gal to really achieve that.

to answer your question, edmanster, the acid malt doesn't just lower the mash ph (beneficial), it does tart-up the wort and carries through to the final beer.
 
I had a similar grist bill with a Saison that I made last summer - when it was actually hot in the PNW. :(

I added a touch of C60 too for a little sumpin sumpin, though. Also added 1/2 lb of dextrose. Went from 1.048 to 1.000 - much boozier than I had originally planned. It was drrrryyyyyyyy, but awesome. Will omit it this year.

Love the 3711. Ferments and attenuates like nobody's business.

Mmmm .... saison :mug:
 
Saison is one of the only beers I add sugar to. I've tried all grain saisons, and it was hard at first to add sugar to my beer, but I really think the sugar is important in a saison.
 
I really appreciate these suggestions. I read the Kill Devil Saison recipe and that is what inspired the Mt. Hood hops in my recipe attempt, they being derived from Hallertauer. I also took the sugar out of my recipe because I have read that 3711 does such a nice job of finishing out pretty dry even without it.

I like the idea of using the acidulated malt and may have to do a second batch that way. Do you think I will be over pitching if I pour it directly onto the yeast cake from the first batch?

No one has mentioned the hop schedule. Does it seem reasonable?
 
The O.P. stated a desire to take advantage of the higher ambient temps of summer to exploit the saison-y character of 3711, something i have only done with 3724, with success.

I have read that the 3711 creates a nice profile at higher temps. it ferments quickly regardless of temp.

the 3711 at low temp gives some definably saison character, but it is clean, and when used to brew a crisper ale, it does the job well. the acid malt lends the exact variety of acidity that a lactic or sour mash would, but is totally controllable. at .5# / 5 gal, it is clearly present but not quite like a berliner. i would go up to 1#/ 5 gal to really achieve that.

to answer your question, edmanster, the acid malt doesn't just lower the mash ph (beneficial), it does tart-up the wort and carries through to the final beer.

The guys at my LHBS told me I'd really want to be able to get up to 90°F if I was going to try the 3724. Have you found this to be true. I don't know if I can get it there.
 
There are probably close to 20 Saisons in bottle or on tap at my local bottle shops. Maybe I should go and try them all to see which ones I like :drunk: and work from there. But I kinda like the mantra "try fast, fail fast". And I'm having so much fun brewing beer.
 
The only time i have used 3724 my ferm temp got as high as 95F, and did pretty well, although it still took a while longer than most strains to fully attenuate-

flavor/smell profile is spot on to Dupont
 
I added a little Carafa Special for color and changed the hop schedule a bit and have given it a name.

Cedar Creek Saison

Wyeast 3711

6lbs Belgian Pils
3lbs 2 row
2lbs White Wheat Malt
1 oz Carafa Special

1 oz Willamette 60 min
1/2 oz Mt Hood 10 min
1/2 oz Mt Hood 2 min

70 minute single mash @ 150°F
10 minute mash out @168°F
 
I would definitely ferment above 80 as a min. 85 is even better.
As much as I hate bottling, saisons do benefit from bottle conditioning imo. Bottle 1/2 the batch and compare.
 
I had a 10 gallon batch of Saison quit on me earlier this summer. Slightly below average temperatures in Los Angeles early this year were partly to blame. Also, some saison yeasts are very temperamental even when done at ideal temperatures.

I am such a bit fan of saison that we brewed another batch yesterday.

I was tempted to culture a Fantome yeast up to 10 gallon size, but got too busy. We were lucky to get a crop of yeast from a local craft brewer that makes a fantastic ginger saison (http://eaglerockbrewery.com/).

I would think about adding some (half lb for 5g) Belgian candi sugar instead of table sugar. It just feels right. Keep your alcohol up and let it finish very dry.

Also, keep a pitch of WLP001 or equivalent around for the possibility that the saison yeast does not finish. The saison funk is usually born in the first day or two of fermentation and finishing with 001 will get your beer dry and still retain the saison flavor (or so I am learning).

Check out our blog (link in sig). There are a couple posts about our saisons in the first page or two.

Good luck!
 
Temperatures had been ramping up here to get close to what we are used to in August but it doesn't look like it's going to make it any time soon. The weather took a turn for the worse. I will keep an eye on the extended forecast and if we have a couple days expected around 90°F I'm gonna go for it.
 
I had a 10 gallon batch of Saison quit on me earlier this summer. Slightly below average temperatures in Los Angeles early this year were partly to blame. Also, some saison yeasts are very temperamental even when done at ideal temperatures.

I am such a bit fan of saison that we brewed another batch yesterday.

I was tempted to culture a Fantome yeast up to 10 gallon size, but got too busy. We were lucky to get a crop of yeast from a local craft brewer that makes a fantastic ginger saison (http://eaglerockbrewery.com/).

I would think about adding some (half lb for 5g) Belgian candi sugar instead of table sugar. It just feels right. Keep your alcohol up and let it finish very dry.

Also, keep a pitch of WLP001 or equivalent around for the possibility that the saison yeast does not finish. The saison funk is usually born in the first day or two of fermentation and finishing with 001 will get your beer dry and still retain the saison flavor (or so I am learning).

Check out our blog (link in sig). There are a couple posts about our saisons in the first page or two.

Good luck!

In my opinion, clear candi sugar could possibly be the biggest waste of money in homebrewing. Go with the table sugar, you'll have identical results. The Dupont strain will finish if you give it time, but if you get impatient, dump some 3711 in there and it will finish it up quickly for you.
 
I had a 10 gallon batch of Saison quit on me earlier this summer. Slightly below average temperatures in Los Angeles early this year were partly to blame. Also, some saison yeasts are very temperamental even when done at ideal temperatures.

I am such a bit fan of saison that we brewed another batch yesterday.

I was tempted to culture a Fantome yeast up to 10 gallon size, but got too busy. We were lucky to get a crop of yeast from a local craft brewer that makes a fantastic ginger saison (http://eaglerockbrewery.com/).

I would think about adding some (half lb for 5g) Belgian candi sugar instead of table sugar. It just feels right. Keep your alcohol up and let it finish very dry.

Also, keep a pitch of WLP001 or equivalent around for the possibility that the saison yeast does not finish. The saison funk is usually born in the first day or two of fermentation and finishing with 001 will get your beer dry and still retain the saison flavor (or so I am learning).

Check out our blog (link in sig). There are a couple posts about our saisons in the first page or two.

Good luck!

Thanks for the advice. Nice blog too, good pictures. I will keep that WLP001 in mind even though I'm told Wyeast 3711 usually finishes pretty dry, it never hurts to have a back-up.
 
For some reason I thought you were using 3724 (better choice if you can keep it hot IMO)? No need for a backup with 3711, that **** will ferment concrete.
 
I like the flavor profile with dupont(3724). Very complex even at the lower end of the range. More peppery and I dont know how to describe it other than mineral-like.
 
I just brewed my first saison last week.

My recipe:
Belgian Pils 9 lb
Munich 1 lb
Rye 1 lb
Flaked corn 8 oz
Flaked oats 8 oz
Treacle 1 lb

Simcoe .5 oz 60
NZ B Saaz .5 oz 15
NZ B Saaz .5 oz 5

Used WLP670 which is the Farmhouse Saison and has Brett in it

Plan to rack this to secondary on 10 lb tart cherries.
 
amrmedic-

good looking grain bill-the cherries sound good

i am going to do a peach addition to a dupont clone- could be great, could be an epic fail-

have to at least try it though- you can learn a lot from failure
 
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