First-Timer Marzen/Oktoberfest

Yeah, I'm crazy doing a lager for my first brew, but here's the rundown:

I'm a big fan of beer. Probably like most of you, I started in the college macro-swill world of beer, began experimenting with different styles and bolder flavors, and never looked back. In general, this leads into the realm of ales, and I LOVE me some ale, but--being from the Cleveland area--the beer that originally captured my attention is Great Lakes Eliot Ness (a Vienna-style amber lager). This lead me toward Marzen and Oktoberfestbier: I nearly lost my mind when I first drank Spaten Oktoberfest (draught). Long story short, this family of German ambers occupies a special place in my heart.

Anyway, after years of talking about it, I finally bought home-brewing gear (the bucket, carboy, bottle-condition way) and a "German Oktoberfest" kit that includes malt, LME, DME, yeast, etc.

I'm currently in secondary fermentation (in a carboy), but a few questions have arisen:

1. The included yeast could work at lager or ale temperatures. I have chosen to ferment as a lager. This is the best way to stay true to the style, correct?

2. The instructions were to primary ferment for 10-14 days before moving to secondary/lagering. After 14 days, I moved from the bucket to the carboy. However, when I tested the gravity, it was 1.025 (from the OG 1.056). The recommended FG is closer to 1.015. I had read that keeping the beer with the dead yeast for too long can cause off flavors to leach into the beer, so I freaked and pulled the trigger. Did I mess it up by transferring?

3. I kept the carboy at about 50 degrees for a couple more days because I was afraid to go to lagering without reaching the FG, but I wanted to follow the directions, so I ended up cooling it soon after. I didn't test the gravity before I started cooling it (to about 33). Did I jump the gun again?

4. It's been lagering for over a month now, and I guess it's time for bottle-conditioning (if the batch isn't ruined). There is priming sugar to add for this, but what I'm wondering is that if I haven't reached FG, is there enough sugar in there already to carbonate? Or should I still add all/some of the sugar?

5. It says to bottle-condition for 2-3 weeks. How long should I REALLY condition?

6. Considering my current situation, what do you think is my BEST course of action to make the best beer possible? I'm worried that my impatience could have ruined the batch.

Thanks for any help.

It would have been better to let it ferment another week or 2. Lagers really take their time. That being said it's still beer and may just be a little sweet. It's best to let it lager for a few months. Kit instructions often rush you thru the process. Faster you brew and drink it the quicker you are to buy another kit. I made an Oktoberfest as my second batch. I let it ferment for 3 weeks and it has been lagering in my garage at 36 degrees for the last 2 months. It definitely took a lot of patience and was a tough choice for so early in my brewing experience. My best advice would be to leave it another month and start making another batch or 2 while waiting for this lager. I would be a little concerned about priming and bottling your Oktoberfest. There is most likely a bit of sugar left in the soution, since it was most likely still fermenting when you transferred and lagered it. If you add priming sugar and there is already a lot of sugar left in the beer you may have some bottle bombs. Why don't you take hydrometer reading. Let the sample warm to 60 degrees before reading it so you get a more accurate reading. Let us know what the reading is...

It won't ruin the beer to warm it back to primary temperatures for a while?

Should I transfer it back to the bucket?

Take a sample at your temp now, let it warm to 60. Nice to know what the gravity is

Just to be 100% clear - take a small sample of the beer, and allow that to reach 60 degrees, then test it. Definitely leave the carboy and all its contents (except that sample) exactly where they are now.

stratslinger said:

Just to be 100% clear - take a small sample of the beer, and allow that to reach 60 degrees, then test it. Definitely leave the carboy and all its contents (except that sample) exactly where they are now.

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Cant give you any advice until I know the gravity. The small sample needs to warm up to 60-68 degrees to get an accurate reading.

I would just leave it in the carboy for another month. I'm just worried about bottle bombs when you bottle and warm

I just brewed a batch of Brewer's Best Eurpoean Bock, which is sort of similar in make up. It also recommended to keep in the primary for 10-14 days, and then transfer to secondary for at least 3 weeks. My OG was 1.068, and my SG when transferring after 11 days was 1.032 (corrected). Temp was 54 degrees constant. I think I'm in the same boat as you - could have possibly left it in primary longer, but I think with a lager, it will continue to ferment a little bit and hopefully my FG can be around 1.020 (recommend FG is 1.018). The only downside is a sweeter, slightly less alcoholic beer, so it's not like it will be undrinkable.

At 58 degrees, I'm getting a reading of 1.022.

I guess I would just leave it at lagering temps for another month and then bottle. There is a chance that it was done fermenting anyway. Extract kits often stop right around 1.020. There is still the chance that you have some fermentable sugars in there. I would not use all 5 oz of priming sugar. Maybe use around 3 oz and leave them in a 70 degree room for 3 weeks to condition. May take longer with a lager. Make sure to keep them covered, so if they exploded, you'll have less splatter everywhere. Anybody else have different advice for this guy?

cwheel said:

I just brewed a batch of Brewer's Best Eurpoean Bock, which is sort of similar in make up. It also recommended to keep in the primary for 10-14 days, and then transfer to secondary for at least 3 weeks. My OG was 1.068, and my SG when transferring after 11 days was 1.032 (corrected). Temp was 54 degrees constant. I think I'm in the same boat as you - could have possibly left it in primary longer, but I think with a lager, it will continue to ferment a little bit and hopefully my FG can be around 1.020 (recommend FG is 1.018). The only downside is a sweeter, slightly less alcoholic beer, so it's not like it will be undrinkable.

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Once you move this to colder temps it's not going to ferment much more. Your basically putting the yeasties to sleep and slowly dropping them out of suspension. That is a pretty high FG to being bottling at

I would recommend raising the temp to room temp and leave it for a week, maybe swirl the yeast back into suspension too. Check the gravity after a week and see if there is any progress.

B0rnFrustr8ed said:

At 58 degrees, I'm getting a reading of 1.022.

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rjwhite41 said:

I would recommend raising the temp to room temp and leave it for a week, maybe swirl the yeast back into suspension too. Check the gravity after a week and see if there is any progress.

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At 1.022, I don't think it's done. Get it back up to 50 degrees, and leave it there until it's done. You've sort of skipped the diacetyl rest, too, so you can do the diacetyl rest when/if the SG drops a few more points.

What I'm saying is get it to 50 degrees until it gets to 1.018 or so, then raise the temperature to 60 degrees, for about 48 hours for the diacetyl rest. Hopefully when you racked you left plenty of active yeast to be able to accomplish that. When the SG no longer changes, and stays the same for three days or longer, THEN it is supposed to be racked off of the yeast and lagering begun.

You jumped the gun at fermentation time, racking, not doing a diacetyl rest, etc. So try to be patient now and give the beer a chance to ferment out. It's no good lagering a beer that isn't finished! Lager means "to store" in German. That's a cold conditioning period, but you don't do that until the beer is finished. After the beer is finished, you'll lager it then. So get it out of lagering temps now and allow the process to happen.

Yooper said:

Hopefully when you racked you left plenty of active yeast to be able to accomplish that.

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How do I know if I did that? I thought part of racking is to get rid of the trub.

B0rnFrustr8ed said:

How do I know if I did that? I thought part of racking is to get rid of the trub.

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Absolutely! And it's done when fermentation is over, and the diacetyl rest is over. If you do it before fermentation is over, then you'll just get more trub in the secondary and potentially stall the fermentation. In addition, racking before the diacetyl rest means that you may not have enough yeast to clear up the diacetyl. Next time, don't rack until the beer is at FG and the diacetyl rest is done (if doing a lager a diacetyl rest is a good idea, and sometimes for ales, too).

Definitely listen to Yoopers advice

Diacetyl rest is around 70 degrees?

And does this vary by style?

B0rnFrustr8ed said:

Diacetyl rest is around 70 degrees?

And does this vary by style?

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A diacetyl rest is done at the tail end of fermentation, while the yeast is still somewhat active but the bulk of fermentation is over. You want the yeast to be still active, because it encourages them to "keep working" and actually digest their own waste products, like diacetyl. Generally, a 10 degree boost over fermentation temperature is fine for a lager. I rarely do a true diacetyl rest on an ale, but it's recommended to raise the temperature on the ale very slightly at the end of fermentation, like from 63 degrees to 68 degrees. You don't need to go any higher than that.

Another way to do a sort-of diacetyl rest is just to leave the beer on the yeast a bit longer and not raise the temperature at all. That works best on ales, though, not lagers. Say you're making an ale at 64 degrees. Leaving it in contact with the yeast at least a couple of days after fermentation is over encourages the yeast to continue to search for food, and they'll actually go back and digest some of their own by-products when fermentation is done. Then, the beer starts to clear a bit as the yeast fall out of suspension and become dormant. THAT is the proper time to rack, if a secondary is being used.

With lagers, they are a bit more finicky about temperature/time so I try to baby them a bit more and keep them in primary until the fermentation is about 75% of the way to FG- usually about 1.018-1.020. That's when I do the diacetyl rest, at 60 degrees, for 48 hours. After the diacetyl rest, I rack the beer and start the lagering by dropping the temperature 5 degrees per day until I'm lagering at 34 degrees for about 8 weeks (1 week for every 8-10 points of OG).

Good info.

Thanks.

Yooper said:

With lagers, they are a bit more finicky about temperature/time so I try to baby them a bit more and keep them in primary until the fermentation is about 75% of the way to FG- usually about 1.018-1.020. That's when I do the diacetyl rest, at 60 degrees, for 48 hours. After the diacetyl rest, I rack the beer and start the lagering by dropping the temperature 5 degrees per day until I'm lagering at 34 degrees for about 8 weeks (1 week for every 8-10 points of OG).

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If I do it the same way you do , then what is the best way to prime and bottle ?

Should I keep it at 70 Degrees F after bottling for at least 3 Weeks ?

Is that temperature suitable for a lager yeast strain ?!

Hector

hector said:

If I do it the same way you do , then what is the best way to prime and bottle ?

Should I keep it at 70 Degrees F after bottling for at least 3 Weeks ?

Is that temperature suitable for a lager yeast strain ?!

Hector

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Yes, after lagering the priming and bottling is the same as for an ale. To guarantee good carbonation, you could add 1/3 package of dry ale yeast when bottling as sometimes a crystal clear lager can take a long time to carb up (due to less yeast in suspension by bottling time).

Yooper said:

To guarantee good carbonation, you could add 1/3 package of dry ale yeast when bottling...

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Do you mean 1/3 package for a 5-Gallon-Batch ?!

I'm asking this because I brew 1-Gallon-Batches .

So , a package contains 11.5 grams of dry ale yeast .

11.5 X 1/3 = 3.8 g --> for 5 Gallons

3.8 X 1/5 = 0.76 g --> for 1 Gallon

I would rehydrate 0.76 grams of dry ale yeast in 7.6 ml of water and add it to the bottling bucket along with the priming solution .

Is that right ?!

Hector