How to get rid on an infection

After my last 2 beers developed an Enteric bacterial infection (it takes a month for the smell and taste to start showing) I want to make sure its gone.

I discarded a 2 year old plastic auto siphon, bottling tubing, bottle filler, spiggot, and stirring spoon.

My questions:

A - Would a 10% bleach solution sterilize, rinsed with a weaker bleach solution (1 gallon water : 1 ounce of bleach) sterilize my remaining plastic equipment? (no bleach on SS). How long does the bleach need to remain in contact?


B -
1 - should I throw away the rubber gaskets, or can I soak them in 10% bleach solution for a while, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan

2 - can I keep my bottling bucket if I wash it with a 10% bleach solution, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan


3 - can I keep my 3 plastic fermentation buckets and lids if I wash them with 10% bleach, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan


4 - I have 2 better bottles - used once. Can I sterilize them with the same 10% bleach solution, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan

5 - I have swing top bottles - used once. Can I soak the rubber stoppers in a 10% bleach solution followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan



OR do need to throw away the buckets as well?
What about the Better Bottles?

I don't think your infection could have been enteric. IIRC enteric cannot live in beer with over 2% ABV.


Regardless, I would backtrack the exact equipment that you used on the cold side for those 2 beers. Inspect each piece of equipment for any grime that you may have missed and also look for any scratches.

If there is any question with your plastic equipment, I would just replace it. New buckets are cheaper than a batch of beer that has to go down the drain.

What is your bottling process? Are you bottling from a bucket in the kitchen? How long is the lid off the bucket when you are bottling? I would check your process first, as long as your cleaning/sanitizing is sound.

I hope the OP doesn't mind me tagging along. I have had 3 consecutive infected batches, the only thing I haven't replaced is my Better Bottle. Is there any way to clean this to insure it is not my source of infection? Can't really afford a replacement; but, I also can't afford to dump beer.

I bottled from a bucket in the same room I've used for a while (in the basement) where there are no drafts or vents.
The lid if off the bottling bucket when I start, then I try and put it partially back on, but sometime sits off.
Bottling per se only takes 20 minutes (its the set up and cleanup thats time consuming)

I think it's an Enteric infection because a couple of BJCP judges said it had a baby diaper smell, and I agreed with them. Even if not Enteric bacteria, I think it's something as it taste a lot worse than it did when it was bottled 6 weeks ago.


I have thrown away anything I can't clean well. (tubing, old auto siphon, spigot, stirring spoon)

The last remaining equipment is buckets.
If they need to go, they will, but I kind of hoped they would be easier to disinfect, since they are open. There is no grime anywhere.

I would just replace the buckets that you used the last couple of batches. Any kind of small scratch will harbor bacteria that you will not be able to kill effectively.

Here's a bunch of bad news. As a general rule, it is best to replace anything made of plastic or other soft materials that contacts infected beer.

ArcLight said:

Would a 10% bleach solution sterilize, rinsed with a weaker bleach solution (1 gallon water : 1 ounce of bleach) sterilize my remaining plastic equipment? (no bleach on SS). How long does the bleach need to remain in contact?

Click to expand...

Its unlikely to work - bacteria tend to accumulate in nooks and crannies, such as microscopic scratches in plasticware. Bleach will kill the stuff near the top, but is unlikely to kill the stuff deeper in the scratch. The kinds of exposure times required to get all the bacteria will also likely damage the plastic - leading all your future batches to taste like cholrophenols (band-aids).

ArcLight said:

should I throw away the rubber gaskets, or can I soak them in 10% bleach solution for a while, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan

Click to expand...

Toss them; like plastics they are excellent harbours for bacteria. Again, it is difficult to chemically sterilize these without irreversibly damaging them.

ArcLight said:

can I keep my bottling bucket if I wash it with a 10% bleach solution, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan

Click to expand...

As a general rule, all plastics need to be tossed if contaminated beer went through them. Bottling buckets are particularly bad, as the hose connecting site offers lots of nooks and crannies for the bacteria to live in. You may have luck tossing the hose and cleaning the bucket & spigot portion really well before replacing the hose - but again, its not a perfect option, and you have to judge for yourself whether the cost of not replacing the plastics is worth the risk of loosing additional batches.

ArcLight said:

can I keep my 3 plastic fermentation buckets and lids if I wash them with 10% bleach, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan

Click to expand...

Again, if infected beer was in them it is best to replace them. High doses of bleach + plastic equals some pretty nasty off-flavours, and offers only a small chance of successfully killing the infection.

ArcLight said:

I have 2 better bottles - used once. Can I sterilize them with the same 10% bleach solution, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan

Click to expand...

Again, if they've contacted contaminated beer they are likely throw-aways.

ArcLight said:

I have swing top bottles - used once. Can I soak the rubber stoppers in a 10% bleach solution followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan

Click to expand...

Keep the bottles, but replace the rubber gaskets (which can be replaced cheaply). Make sure to give the bottles a long soak in bleach before replacing the gaskets. Unlike plastics, glass does not offer a nice environment for bacteria to grow in and can be safely cleaned & sanitized.

I know this is not what you wanted to hear, but bacteria are tenacious little beasts. In wort they will form biofilms in any nook or cranny where they can grab hold - and biofilms provide an astounding degree of protection against sanitizing agents. Glass & metal are generally non-supportive of strong films, and a good cleaning with a strong cleanser - followed by a sanitizing agent - will usually make them fermentation-ready. The soft & porous nature of plastics makes them nearly impossible to cleans of biofilms.

And lastly, remember that sanitizing agents like bleach will generally leave 1 in every 10,000 to 100,000 contaminating bacteria behind; they are not sterilizing agents and thus are not generally able to remove serious contamination to the level required for brewing.

Bryan

ArcLight said:

After my last 2 beers developed an Enteric bacterial infection (it takes a month for the smell and taste to start showing) I want to make sure its gone.

I discarded a 2 year old plastic auto siphon, bottling tubing, bottle filler, spiggot, and stirring spoon.

My questions:

A - Would a 10% bleach solution sterilize, rinsed with a weaker bleach solution (1 gallon water : 1 ounce of bleach) sterilize my remaining plastic equipment? (no bleach on SS). How long does the bleach need to remain in contact?


B -
1 - should I throw away the rubber gaskets, or can I soak them in 10% bleach solution for a while, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan

2 - can I keep my bottling bucket if I wash it with a 10% bleach solution, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan


3 - can I keep my 3 plastic fermentation buckets and lids if I wash them with 10% bleach, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan


4 - I have 2 better bottles - used once. Can I sterilize them with the same 10% bleach solution, followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan

5 - I have swing top bottles - used once. Can I soak the rubber stoppers in a 10% bleach solution followed by a soak in the weaker bleach, followed by a soak in StarSan



OR do need to throw away the buckets as well?
What about the Better Bottles?

Click to expand...

I don't think you need to throw anything away. Ask yourself this: what will I do after the next infection? And the one after that? You'll be spending a lot more in new gear than the value of a batch of beer. Throwing your gear out does nothing other than cost you money unless you are certain this will be the last infection. Infections are managed through good sanitation not tossing gear in the garbage (again, unless you know this is your last infection).
After I bottle my sour beer I often wash the better bottle, shake star san around in it and ferment a pale ale or lager in that bottle, I've never had an infected beer. Soap (non detergent) and star san have yet to meet a bug they couldn't kill on my gear.

Warthaug said:

Here's a bunch of bad news. As a general rule, it is best to replace anything made of plastic or other soft materials that contacts infected beer.


Its unlikely to work - bacteria tend to accumulate in nooks and crannies, such as microscopic scratches in plasticware. Bleach will kill the stuff near the top, but is unlikely to kill the stuff deeper in the scratch. The kinds of exposure times required to get all the bacteria will also likely damage the plastic - leading all your future batches to taste like cholrophenols (band-aids).


Toss them; like plastics they are excellent harbours for bacteria. Again, it is difficult to chemically sterilize these without irreversibly damaging them.


As a general rule, all plastics need to be tossed if contaminated beer went through them. Bottling buckets are particularly bad, as the hose connecting site offers lots of nooks and crannies for the bacteria to live in. You may have luck tossing the hose and cleaning the bucket & spigot portion really well before replacing the hose - but again, its not a perfect option, and you have to judge for yourself whether the cost of not replacing the plastics is worth the risk of loosing additional batches.


Again, if infected beer was in them it is best to replace them. High doses of bleach + plastic equals some pretty nasty off-flavours, and offers only a small chance of successfully killing the infection.


Again, if they've contacted contaminated beer they are likely throw-aways.


Keep the bottles, but replace the rubber gaskets (which can be replaced cheaply). Make sure to give the bottles a long soak in bleach before replacing the gaskets. Unlike plastics, glass does not offer a nice environment for bacteria to grow in and can be safely cleaned & sanitized.

I know this is not what you wanted to hear, but bacteria are tenacious little beasts. In wort they will form biofilms in any nook or cranny where they can grab hold - and biofilms provide an astounding degree of protection against sanitizing agents. Glass & metal are generally non-supportive of strong films, and a good cleaning with a strong cleanser - followed by a sanitizing agent - will usually make them fermentation-ready. The soft & porous nature of plastics makes them nearly impossible to cleans of biofilms.

And lastly, remember that sanitizing agents like bleach will generally leave 1 in every 10,000 to 100,000 contaminating bacteria behind; they are not sterilizing agents and thus are not generally able to remove serious contamination to the level required for brewing.

Bryan

Click to expand...

I have to disagree with almost all of this advice. Bacteria and wild yeast can be cleaned off of plastic with the cleaners and sanitizers common to brewing. I don't recommend bleach in home brewing but it is an effective sanitizer. The whole scratched plastic harboring bugs idea has a kernel of truth to it but has been exaggerated into something almost mythic. If you have a deep gouge, think sticking the tip of a sharp knife deep into the side of a bucket, I could see that being a problem. The usual scratches found in virtually every plastic bucket are not harboring anything that soap and sanitizer can't reach.
The best way each person can definitively answer this question for themselves is to try it. Ferment a sour beer in a plastic fermentor, wash, sanitize then ferment a clean beer in the same fermentor. Or you could just believe what you read.

eastoak said:

I don't think you need to throw anything away. Ask yourself this: what will I do after the next infection? And the one after that? You'll be spending a lot more in new gear than the value of a batch of beer.

Click to expand...

He has 2 batches of beer down the toilet already; replacing his plastics is probably about the same price as the cost of those batches of beers. After replacement, the OP will hopefully never have this issue again - infections need not be a regular occurrence in the home brewery.

Lets turn your point around - how many batches should the OP let get infected before replacing his kit?

eastoak said:

I have to disagree with almost all of this advice. Bacteria and wild yeast can be cleaned off of plastic with the cleaners and sanitizers common to brewing

Click to expand...

Actually, it is very difficult to rid equipment colonized by bacteria; a bit of contact time with a sanitizer is not sufficient. There is a reason why the standard advice for persistent infection in nearly every brewing book, internet forum & newsletter is "get rid of the soft stuff". Frankly, if one good cleaning doesn't fix the problem that you're merely wasting time & money trying again.

eastoak said:

The whole scratched plastic harboring bugs idea has a kernel of truth to it but has been exaggerated into something almost mythic

Click to expand...

Hardly. Biofilms on plastic surfaces are a serious problem in a number of industries - medical, food prep, brewing, etc. Finding ways to address this is a billion dollar industry, and a major area of research in academic labs. Nearly every case of factory-derived food poisoning you hear of in the news is due to bacteria being transferred from a biofilm on plastic to a food product.

Bacteria stick to surfaces like plastics in what are called 'biofilms'; aggregates of bacteria 'glued' together by polysaccharides glues. These glues are the strongest adhesives known to human kind - indeed, I am a partner in a biotech company seeking to synthesize some of these glues for use as industrial and (hopefully) surgical adhesives. They are all but indestructible, being immune to most oxidative compounds (i.e. bleach) and acid degradation (i.e. star san). This quality also protects the bacteria in them. For example, bacteria in a biofilm are ~3000 times more resistant to bleach than are free bacteria:

LeChevallier, W.M., C.D. Cawthon and R.G. Lee. Inactivation of biofilm bacteria. Appl. Environ. Micro., 54:2492-2499. 1988.

Frank, J.F. and R.A. Koffi. Surface adherent growth of Listeria monocytogenes is associated with resistance to heat and sanitizers. J. Food Protection, 53:550-554. 1990.

On a smooth surface, biofilms can be easily removed; the bacteria hold together, but the biofilm just slides off the surface. But microscopic imperfections - just slightly larger than the bacteria themselves - can increase the adhesive force of the biofilm by a factor of tens of thousands. A scratch which is visible will support a biofilm adhesion that is actually stronger than the plastic itself. A bit of bleach and elbow grease is unlikely to address that.

But hey, what do I know. I'm only a microbiology/immunology professor who is part-owner of a company that works with this stuff...

Bryan

For what it's worth, I had 2 infected batches. 1st one was obvious after 2 weeks in bottle. 2nd took a little while to develope. Could not remember which batch was in which bucket. I did a bleach-oxyclean soak. Last brew day used both buckets, no problems at all. One of the beers was a citrus wheat and it tasted clean with no off tastes.
I know the oxy/bleach combo is extreme, but it worked great.

I agree with Eastoak: I have been using the same tubing, plastic buckets, etc for almost 3-4 years and I have never had an infected beer in my entire time brewing and no, my plastics are not in mint or near perfect condition either. Proper cleaning AND sanitizing throughout the process will eliminate any chance of infection.

There is something going on in the OP's process, cold side that is affecting the batches but the OP did not state whether we are talking about once in the bottle or in the primary. Neither is there mention of his/her cleaning and sanitizing routine and products being used.

It could be gunk in the bottling spigot or gunk in the bucket lid seal as those are the two pieces of equipment that are not often checked by many people. There is also the issue of racking properly and being sanitary in your brewing environment.

I have helped people deal with infection issues that still occurred after they tossed and bought new equipment and it was apparent the infection issue was process, not equipment.

To the OP-Clean everything with a good soak of Oxy or PBW from buckets, spigots, tubing, etc and this includes using a non abrasive scrubbie as well on all surfaces. Take anything apart that comes apart and soak as well. If there are stains you can use bleach with cold water. Once everything has soaked for 10-12 hours thoroughly rinse clean with hot and then cold water and store properly until you brew again.

On brew day be sure to inspect and clean again, sanitize with proper Star San dilution and be sanitary about all your transfers.. Be sure to use vodka in your airlock, not water. Don't open your vessel more than necessary, avoid secondary if not necessary and be sure your bottling process includes all the same steps as your brewing process.

If you want to toss your equipment go ahead, but as East Oak mentioned it will not guarantee you eliminated your infection issue if you are not practicing clean and sanitary brewing practices.

duboman said:

I agree with Eastoak: I have been using the same tubing, plastic buckets, etc for almost 3-4 years and I have never had an infected beer in my entire time brewing and no, my plastics are not in mint or near perfect condition either. Proper cleaning AND sanitizing throughout the process will eliminate any chance of infection.

Click to expand...

I never once recommended replacing stuff at random; only after an infection that cleaning failed to remove. My oldest primary fermenter (a plastic bucket) is nearly 17 years old and going strong, thanks to a strict cleaning/sanitizing process.

I.E. prevention is the best medicine.

But, once an infection has set in and proven to be resilient, your best bet remains to replace the infected equipment.

Bryan

Warthaug said:

He has 2 batches of beer down the toilet already; replacing his plastics is probably about the same price as the cost of those batches of beers. After replacement, the OP will hopefully never have this issue again - infections need not be a regular occurrence in the home brewery.

Click to expand...

this is a pretty big caveat, he may as well lay hands on his gear and pray to god.

Warthaug said:

Actually, it is very difficult to rid equipment colonized by bacteria; a bit of contact time with a sanitizer is not sufficient. There is a reason why the standard advice for persistent infection in nearly every brewing book, internet forum & newsletter is "get rid of the soft stuff". Frankly, if one good cleaning doesn't fix the problem that you're merely wasting time & money trying again.

Click to expand...

that is why i said that empirical evidence is the best way for each brewer to settle this for themselves. when i started brewing i believed the conventional wisdom that an infecting was essentially permanent on a plastic surface because that is what i read and heard. what i decided to do was test those theories for myself. what i found in MY testing was that infections can be cleaned off.

Warthaug said:

Hardly. Biofilms on plastic surfaces are a serious problem in a number of industries - medical, food prep, brewing, etc. Finding ways to address this is a billion dollar industry, and a major area of research in academic labs. Nearly every case of factory-derived food poisoning you hear of in the news is due to bacteria being transferred from a biofilm on plastic to a food product./QUOTE]

i don't know much about industrial production of anything but i would expect sanitation to be a nightmare when dealing with millions/billions of square feet of surfaces. not exactly the homebrew experience.

Warthaug said:

On a smooth surface, biofilms can be easily removed; the bacteria hold together, but the biofilm just slides off the surface. But microscopic imperfections - just slightly larger than the bacteria themselves - can increase the adhesive force of the biofilm by a factor of tens of thousands. A scratch which is visible will support a biofilm adhesion that is actually stronger than the plastic itself. A bit of bleach and elbow grease is unlikely to address that.

Click to expand...

i know that biofilms are tough but in my experience they are not tougher than mechanical scrubbing, cleaners and sanitizers working in concert. at least not in a home brew setting.

i answered this thread because new brewers will read these posts and hopefully be prompted to not just go along with what they hear and read, they can just try it in their own brew houses and know for certain. if i'm able to clean off infections and others are doing the same then maybe it's possible, that's all i'm saying.

Click to expand...

But hey, what do I know. I'm only a microbiology/immunology professor who is part-owner of a company that works with this stuff...

Click to expand...

that is funny stuff right there....



I agree with both camps. IF the OP's process is perfect and leaves minimal room to random infection, then I would look at replacing equipment. But, I would look at process first.

Having two batches spoiled with enteric bacteria is not common at all. Beer is not very hospitable to enteric bacteria once it gets above 2% abv. That makes me lean towards the thinking that there is a colony living somewhere in his equipment.

Is mold easier or harder to get rid of than bacteria? Some of my plastic got mold in it between brews. I'm in the same boat, wondering if I should replace it?

PRE66_6TART said:

Is mold easier or harder to get rid of than bacteria? Some of my plastic got mold in it between brews. I'm in the same boat, wondering if I should replace it?

Click to expand...

it's not harder to clean off. you can replace it if it makes you feel better but you can also wash and sanitize it and it will be fine.

Depending on the species, molds can be easier or harder to get rid of than bacteria. But on the bright side, they are less likely to ruin beer than bacteria - many simply do not do well in the anaerobic/alcoholic environment of a ferment. My advice would be the same as for the OP: either make one good attempt at cleaning & sanitizing (and if the problem doesn't go away, toss it), or simply toss it.

Ultimately, you have to decide if the cost of replacement is worth more or less than a 'test' batch of beer.

Bryan

eastoak said:

this is a pretty big caveat, he may as well lay hands on his gear and pray to god.

Click to expand...

I'd argue the opposite - by establishing good cleaning & sanitation practices any brewer should be able to eliminate infections completely from his/her brewing process. Sours aside, its been over a decade (and a few hundred batches of beer) since my last noticeable infection.

eastoak said:

that is why i said that empirical evidence is the best way for each brewer to settle this for themselves.

Click to expand...

Quibble: That's not empirical evidence; its subjective evidence. I provided citations to two sources which engaged in empirical studies; both of which supported exactly what I stated - biofilms on plastic are extremely hard to remove.

eastoak said:

i don't know much about industrial production of anything but i would expect sanitation to be a nightmare when dealing with millions/billions of square feet of surfaces. not exactly the homebrew experience.

Click to expand...

In many ways they have it easier - far more concentrated/dangerous cleansers/sanitizers than we can access at home, steam sanitization, autoclaving, etc. We re relatively disadvantaged compared to industrial operations - that shouldn't be taken as an excuse for infections on our part, but it should lead us to be extra careful in our cleaning/sanitization efforts.

eastoak said:

i know that biofilms are tough but in my experience they are not tougher than mechanical scrubbing, cleaners and sanitizers working in concert. at least not in a home brew setting.

Click to expand...

Than you've never dealt with a biofilm. As I stated in my previous post, their mechanical & adhesive strength is greater than plastic, meaning the only way to "scrub" them off is to physically remove the underlying plastic.

eastoak said:

i answered this thread because new brewers will read these posts and hopefully be prompted to not just go along with what they hear and read

Click to expand...

And I replied as you gave advice which is factually incorrect and could lead to a brewer loosing multiple batches of beer.

Bryan

Warthaug said:

I'd argue the opposite - by establishing good cleaning & sanitation practices any brewer should be able to eliminate infections completely from his/her brewing process. Sours aside, its been over a decade (and a few hundred batches of beer) since my last noticeable infection.


Quibble: That's not empirical evidence; its subjective evidence. I provided citations to two sources which engaged in empirical studies; both of which supported exactly what I stated - biofilms on plastic are extremely hard to remove.


In many ways they have it easier - far more concentrated/dangerous cleansers/sanitizers than we can access at home, steam sanitization, autoclaving, etc. We re relatively disadvantaged compared to industrial operations - that shouldn't be taken as an excuse for infections on our part, but it should lead us to be extra careful in our cleaning/sanitization efforts.


Than you've never dealt with a biofilm. As I stated in my previous post, their mechanical & adhesive strength is greater than plastic, meaning the only way to "scrub" them off is to physically remove the underlying plastic.


And I replied as you gave advice which is factually incorrect and could lead to a brewer loosing multiple batches of beer.

Bryan

Click to expand...

i'm not sure what advice i've given that is factually wrong but all of that notwithstanding you are ignoring all of the people who ferment sour beer and clean beer in the same vessels with zero problems. if the sour bugs used in brewing are making indestructible biofilms then how do you explain what me and many other brewers are doing? we can't all be making this up. my one and only point for new brewers is to not just go by what they hear or read rather they should investigate for themselves in their own brew house and the truth will find them. how is this controversial?



from websters

em·pir·i·cal: based on testing or experience.
: originating in or based on observation or experience <empirical data>
2
: relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory <an empirical basis for the theory>
3
: capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment <empirical laws>
4
: of or relating to empiricism

nothing about empirical evidence relating only to scientific studies.

I'm not even going to pretend that I I'm fully knowledgeable about the complexities with which is being discussed but I'm with Eastoak-I have been brewing for years with the same buckets, tubing and lots of other things that are plastic as an all grain brewer. Somewhere in the vicinity of the household legal limit. I have NEVER had an infected beer!

I wash everything with Oxy, use only Star San and brew in my garage throughout the year in the cold, rain, heat and all other conditions that exist in one's garage as a family of 5.

I only use primary, only open for gravity, ferment in the basement and bottle or rack to keg in the garage as well. I'm diligent but in no way am I in some clean anal lab environment.

Honestly I have no idea why I read about so many infected beers on this sight!

To the OP, I have just gone through a infection problem and was scared about keeping my plastics also, what I'm going to tell you is what I did you can make your own decisions.


I have been brewing for about 3 years now an I have always fermented and made my starters in my basement and have never had a thought of why it could be a problem till earlier this year, I made a rice lager and I fermented as usual in the basement, since it was a lager I made 2 more batches (not knowing yet that I had a problem) 1 a DFH clone and the other a big chewy stout and both of these became infected. Since I make 10 gallon batches that is 30 gallons of rubbing alcohol smelling and citrus/bitter after tasting not able to drink beer.

I racked my brain trying to figure out what happened, I looked back at my notes, double checked my sanitation and walked mentally through my brew day to figure it out, I didn't want to replace 6 fermenters, auto siphon, air locks and tubbing that would add up to over $100. Now just by chance I fermented the last 2 in my laundry room so now what is my common denominator? MY BASEMENT! Even though I fermented upstairs my starters were made in the basement on a stir plate, the beer I lagered I aerated and pitched down there.

I cleaned EVERYTHING with bleach and washed with Oxyclean and have since made 2 infection free brews now again this is what I did, if I had just replaced everything I still would have continued to have infections without figuring where it was coming from, do your homework and make your decision on what to do. I would recommend at least trying to clean everything an making a low cost beer and see how it goes and take very detailed notes, if you made a starter and where, where you fermented, where you pitched and also where you cooled and how you cooled your wort. I hope this helps.

eastoak said:

i'm not sure what advice i've given that is factually wrong but all of that notwithstanding you are ignoring all of the people who ferment sour beer and clean beer in the same vessels with zero problems. if the sour bugs used in brewing are making indestructible biofilms then how do you explain what me and many other brewers are doing?

Click to expand...

I'd like you to point out exactly where I stated sour bugs make biofilms. I didn't - as generally, they don't. Not all bacteria are the same. However, a number of bacteria that do form persistent infections in brewery & other food-preparation equipment, such as the enterobacteria mentioned by the OP, do form near-"indestructible" biofilms. And if you have a persistent infection problem, there is a good chance that its coming from a biofilm somewhere in your fermentation line.

eastoak said:

we can't all be making this up. my one and only point for new brewers is to not just go by what they hear or read rather they should investigate for themselves in their own brew house and the truth will find them. how is this controversial?

Click to expand...

Because its silly - you're telling people to ignore the tens-of-thousands of person-years of brewing experience, accumulated in places like HBT. I've been brewing for nearly 17 years - I'd argue that it is better for someone to avoid the mistakes I've made over that time, than to make the mistakes themselves and let the "truth find them".

eastoak said:

nothing about empirical evidence relating only to scientific studies.

Click to expand...

Way to miss the point. Personal experience is not empirical evidence - it is subjective evidence, as I stated in my post. While science is not the only source of empiricism, it does provide the most consistent source of empirical data we have. In contrast, personal experience is well known to be highly subjective, prone to bias, and is extremely unreliable.

Bryan

duboman said:

I'm not even going to pretend that I I'm fully knowledgeable about the complexities with which is being discussed but I'm with Eastoak-I have been brewing for years with the same buckets, tubing and lots of other things that are plastic as an all grain brewer. Somewhere in the vicinity of the household legal limit. I have NEVER had an infected beer!

Click to expand...

Quibble - Eastoak is the one saying infections are inevitable, not I. I agree with you 100% - care & proper sanitation should eliminate the threat of any infection ever occurring. I have a 17 year-old fermenter that is still going strong, although I've lost a few others along the line.

duboman said:

Honestly I have no idea why I read about so many infected beers on this sight!

Click to expand...

Because its a common problem, largely due to brewers who don't have an established & reliable cleaning/sanitation regime like the one you described. IMO, the single best piece of advice new brewers can be given is how to clean & sanitize properly.

Bryan

Warthaug said:

Because its silly - you're telling people to ignore the tens-of-thousands of person-years of brewing experience, accumulated in places like HBT. I've been brewing for nearly 17 years - I'd argue that it is better for someone to avoid the mistakes I've made over that time, than to make the mistakes themselves and let the "truth find them".

Click to expand...

good thing Copernicus disagreed with that way of thinking. many scientific discoveries and advancements were made by people who ignored "thousands of person years". you probably already knew that. i know, i know: "quibble"

Warthaug said:

Way to miss the point. Personal experience is not empirical evidence - it is subjective evidence, as I stated in my post. While science is not the only source of empiricism, it does provide the most consistent source of empirical data we have. In contrast, personal experience is well known to be highly subjective, prone to bias, and is extremely unreliable.

Bryan

Click to expand...

personal experience is "i felt the presence of god" not "i cleaned a fermentor that had a contaminant then fermented a beer in it without infection". one of those can be proven. again, i know: "quibble"

Warthaug said:

Quibble - Eastoak is the one saying infections are inevitable, not I.

Click to expand...

really? where did i say that?

i'm not trying to win anything here. i'm always ready to change my position when the facts change but so far they have not.

1.)i ferment sour beer.
2.)i wash and sanitize the fermentor.
3.)i ferment clean beer in that same fermentor.
4.)i've never had an unintentional sour beer doing this.

my claims:
1.)anyone else can do this too.

that's it. i won't be posting to this thread anymore.

Eastoak,

What you are missing is that intentionally souring a beer and then cleaning the fermentor, then fermenting a clean beer beer is wholly different than having an infection problem, which may or may not be from resident bacteria living in scratches.

Nobody has argued that you can't ferment sour beers and clean beers in the same fermentors. The situation here is that the OP DID clean and sanitize the fermentor and still had an infected beer. You are not even arguing the same point, just arguing for arguments sake.

eastoak said:

good thing Copernicus disagreed with that way of thinking. many scientific discoveries and advancements were made by people who ignored "thousands of person years". you probably already knew that. i know, i know: "quibble"

Click to expand...

:cross:

Copernicus built his model of the solar system based on his observations and the observations of many others - Pythagoras, Aristarchus, Martianus Capella, Bruno, amoung others - he was not the first to propose a heliocentric solar system, nor was he the first to provide evidence of it - he was simply the first to provide a mathematical model that showed it was likely. The final nail in the coffin for geocentrism was Galileo's direct observation of the orbital motion of Jupiters moons - again, a discovery built on the work of many others, including Copernicus.

eastoak said:

personal experience is "i felt the presence of god" not "i cleaned a fermentor that had a contaminant then fermented a beer in it without infection". one of those can be proven. again, i know: "quibble"

Click to expand...

No, personal experience is "i once cleaned a fermenter and got rid of an infection". The efficacy of that process can only be determined by repeated observation of multiple different homebrewers dealing with multiple different
infections - "repeated observations drawn from a randomly selected population" in science-speak.

Your observation that you once removed a single infection lends zero weight to the idea that infections are all removable - no more than a single individual not able to remove a single infection lends weight to the opposite conclusion. They are personal experiences - a single, subjective experience that in no way reflects the 'average' experience of brewers.

eastoak said:

really? where did i say that?

Click to expand...

Here. he may as well lay hands on his gear and pray to god., in response to mestating that with proper cleaning/sanitation, a brewer should never need to worry about cleaning up an infection.

eastoak said:

i'm not trying to win anything here. i'm always ready to change my position when the facts change but so far they have not.

1.)i ferment sour beer.
2.)i wash and sanitize the fermentor.
3.)i ferment clean beer in that same fermentor.
4.)i've never had an unintentional sour beer doing this.

my claims:
1.)anyone else can do this too.

Click to expand...

And since the organisms used to produce sour beers don't generally produce biofilms, and are completely different from the spoilage organisms which a) more often infect beer, and b) do form biofilms, your/other peoples experiences with sour beers is irrelevant to a discussion of dealing with the OP's problem.

Bryan

OP, did you resolve your infection problem? Sorry for reviving this thread

eremir said:

OP, did you resolve your infection problem? Sorry for reviving this thread

Click to expand...

I tossed some plastic equipment and never had a problem again.

FYI - bacterial infections are hard to get rid of. For those who say don't get rid of your plastic and just try and clean it well - that can work, but there is a good chance it wont, and you will be out the cost of a kit and a lot of wasted time. It was easier for me to retire a bucket and auto siphon.

ArcLight said:

I tossed some plastic equipment and never had a problem again.

FYI - bacterial infections are hard to get rid of. For those who say don't get rid of your plastic and just try and clean it well - that can work, but there is a good chance it wont, and you will be out the cost of a kit and a lot of wasted time. It was easier for me to retire a bucket and auto siphon.

Click to expand...

LOL, I didn't realize this was an old thread until I got here to your post. My interest is because I've had 3 batches with problems with the first 2 I could identify were/how the contamination occurred the third batch I have not a clue why/what wrong with my process.
I dedicated the auto syphon to sours rather than toss it of course cleaned and sanitized it. I'm not a microbiologist, but beilieve we have at least one as a member. Not every sanitizer kills every organisim, so the strategy of cleaning well with pbw or one step and then sanitizing with iodine to clean up is what I have done with fermentors and kegs. (They get starsan on brew day) Replacing cheap tubing should be done periodically anyway and rubber gaskets o-rings I also ditched. The 3rd dumper was in a brand new fermentor so that got the idophore as well. Funny thing is when I first started I just used onestep.