Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!
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sure you can bleed off CO2 and bottle with the beer gun. it's be no different than bottling with a beer gun from a corny keg. As for harvesting the yeast.. go for it. the gradual drop in CO2 pressure won't kill the yeast. Even a rapid drop isn't going to kill ALL the yeast.
joeybeer
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Thanks for this idea Wortmonger !!
My first trial run is finished and delicious ! (10g Ed Wort's Haus Pale Ale)
I don't have a spunding valve yet so I had to keep an eye on the gauge, and bleed air off occasionally to keep the pressure where I wanted it !
It was finished fermenting and I was nervous about the transfer to corny's.. I couldn't figure out how I was going to transfer, but after taking apart my faucet on my kegerator I noticed -
THE PINLOCK BEER OUT, HOSE AND TAILPIECE SCREW RIGHT ON TO THE SANKE COUPLER !!!!!
Bam ! Problem solved, didn't even have to make up a new line ! Just unplugged and unscrewed the line from the fridge and hooked it to the corny and screwed the other end to the coupler.. ( I cut my sanke diptube 1", but it's an extra)
Anyway it's great and 14 days grain to glass, already carbonated and chilled from the crash cooling !
Thanks again !
My first trial run is finished and delicious ! (10g Ed Wort's Haus Pale Ale)
I don't have a spunding valve yet so I had to keep an eye on the gauge, and bleed air off occasionally to keep the pressure where I wanted it !
It was finished fermenting and I was nervous about the transfer to corny's.. I couldn't figure out how I was going to transfer, but after taking apart my faucet on my kegerator I noticed -
THE PINLOCK BEER OUT, HOSE AND TAILPIECE SCREW RIGHT ON TO THE SANKE COUPLER !!!!!
Bam ! Problem solved, didn't even have to make up a new line ! Just unplugged and unscrewed the line from the fridge and hooked it to the corny and screwed the other end to the coupler.. ( I cut my sanke diptube 1", but it's an extra)
Anyway it's great and 14 days grain to glass, already carbonated and chilled from the crash cooling !
Thanks again !
kpr121
Well-Known Member
Whoa Whoa Whoa! Are you saying what I think your saying. You were able to put the pinlock post directly onto the beer out sanke threading?
Or do you mean that you have the 1/4 MFL connection that allows you to switch out between corny and sankey?
Very good to hear. Thanks for the response.
Another thing I haven't been able to visualize: How do people take hydrometer samples? I'm not familiar with how Sankes are set up, but with a corny I imagine I'd just pull trub and flocc'ed out yeast. I'd like to avoid cutting the dip tube if possible.
storunner13
Well-Known Member
You don't have to cut the dip tube (in fact, WortMonger wishes he hadn't) and Sankes work similarly to a Corny.
However, your worries about pulling up trub and flocculated yeast should be so. Just like a counter-pressure transfer, your first 1/2 pint will be a bit cloudy, but after that, you should have clear beer! For the best results, you should chill the keg to as close to 31-32˚F as you can for a day to coax the yeast to REALLY flocculate and form a solid cake on the bottom of your keg. Then, with little or no handling, you should be able to to transfer your (almost) crystal clear beer!
Some people on this thread have served out of their fermentor keg with no problems. As long as the keg stays cold and immobile, that cake of yeast a trub should stay solidly at the bottom.
However, your worries about pulling up trub and flocculated yeast should be so. Just like a counter-pressure transfer, your first 1/2 pint will be a bit cloudy, but after that, you should have clear beer! For the best results, you should chill the keg to as close to 31-32˚F as you can for a day to coax the yeast to REALLY flocculate and form a solid cake on the bottom of your keg. Then, with little or no handling, you should be able to to transfer your (almost) crystal clear beer!
Some people on this thread have served out of their fermentor keg with no problems. As long as the keg stays cold and immobile, that cake of yeast a trub should stay solidly at the bottom.
storunner13
Well-Known Member
Also, as far has taking a hydrometer sample, I personally haven't discovered a great method. You will pull up a little bit of yeast and trub, but it should quickly sink (since you have to wait for the sample to release the dissolved CO2.
I've just given up on taking a sample mid-ferment and just gone by feel. Maybe the results aren't scientifically perfect, but it works for me. I just let the beer ferment for 3-4 days until I can no longer hear a steady flow of CO2 coming from the spunding valve. Then I close it up and keep tabs on it to see how quickly it raises in pressure. If it shoots up really far in an hour or two, I bleed back to 12-15, and wait a day before sealing it up towards the end.
Granted, my sample set for this working is only 3 beers, but so far it works.
I've just given up on taking a sample mid-ferment and just gone by feel. Maybe the results aren't scientifically perfect, but it works for me. I just let the beer ferment for 3-4 days until I can no longer hear a steady flow of CO2 coming from the spunding valve. Then I close it up and keep tabs on it to see how quickly it raises in pressure. If it shoots up really far in an hour or two, I bleed back to 12-15, and wait a day before sealing it up towards the end.
Granted, my sample set for this working is only 3 beers, but so far it works.
Right, that part I follow. But what I'm asking about is hydrometer samples during fermentation. I'd hate to pull a couple of pints every time I need to check the gravity.
Edit: beat me to it. Thanks for the info!
kpr121
Well-Known Member
I think my solution to this is going to use cut dip tubes for active fermentation kegs. That way you should be able to pull samples with minimal trub. Also, transferring to serving keg will leave the entire cake behind. I had some not-so-fun times with trub and hop bits getting stuck in the posts and QD for my first ferment. I did remove the poppets from both, but still had clogging. If I dedicate 3-4 kegs specifically for fermentation, I shouldnt have to worry about the shorter diptubes leaving anything but trub behind. Plus maybe I'd be able to get away with keeping the poppets on (it would make it a lot easier to not have to worry about depressurizing before pulling them off.
So I think I'll try to cut them 1-2 inches, sound reasonable?
OP
OP
I really see no reason why this wouldn't work. I would take the precautions to make sure you have as much sediment out of the way of the dip tube prior to starting my bottle fills. I might also suggest that your carbonation wanted volumes be .1-.2 higher before you start bleeding the keg down prior to filling. You will loose some fizz and this should account for that once the bottles are capped. I am anxious to see how it works for you. Also, I would let the bottles rest for a couple of days to see what the finished product is really going to look like with this technique you have proposed.
Yep, after your keg has floated from bottling, gently bleed to atmospheric pressure and fill with sterile water to wash with. Shake the keg up and transfer into your washing vessel under CO2 pressure (shouldn't take much pressure to push that little out). Then wash and reuse when you need to. I would account for the yeast being more stressed, so you will need a little more than usual for the next pitch to be on the safe side. If you are making a starter then this wouldn't be as important IMHO. Also, if you brewed a higher ABV beer right after your emptying via bottling... you could put that right on top of the cake,not have to wash anything, and have a proper amount of yeast for the bigger beer. Just an idea! I wouldn't do this but once myself, then wash if you want to.
No problem and glad you like the thread so much. Keep the ideas coming and support the thread by telling us about your ventures right here!
OP
OP
I am so glad it worked so well for you. 14 days grain to glass kicks ass!:rockin:
No problem and glad you like the thread so much. Keep the ideas coming and support the thread by telling us about your ventures right here!
Great! Will do.
Now to find a ~7gal keg narrower than 14" and shorter than 24". Only thing I've found so far is this.
What about a narrow sankee quarter keg?
Quick correction. The pilsner I just pressure fermented was brewed on 8/22 and poured on 9/28 so about one month total.
kpr121
Well-Known Member
Nice! That reinforces one of a long list of positives of pressurized fermenting, quick grain to glass. 4 weeks and a pilsner is good to drink? Wow. I am officially sold with all this info, and my own experience with an IPA (tapped in 3 1/2 weeks and delicious) and this will be the only way that I ferment my beer from here on out.
Quick question: Anyone think that fermenting cider under pressure would be beneficial?
OP
OP
Great! Will do.
Now to find a ~7gal keg narrower than 14" and shorter than 24". Only thing I've found so far is this.
I use 1/6 bbl (5+ gallon) like these. If you can find the skinny 1/4 bbl ones I think they are the same height as the skinny 1/6 and straight-sided 1/2 bbl at 23". The only difference is circumference and should be just a little fatter than the skinny 1/6 bbl ones. 1/6 bbl is only 9" so I would think 1/4 bbl would be something like 23" tall by 10-12" wide. I love the skinny kegs in conjunction with a 1/2 bbl fermentor for me. I usually fill three 1/6 bbl from my one 1/2 bbl and it works out great, but I understand the difficulty when only doing 5+ gallon batches. A 1/4 bbl would be perfect for making things easier in that case to end up with a full 5+ gallon keg. Check around and I bet you will find a 1/4 bbl that is the same height as you require. If 24" is your max height, you might look into these low boy tap connectors. The reviewer said, "This product saved me about 3 inches from the lid over the standard tap - 2 inches on height alone and then another inch on the tightest bend I could get in my beer lines while still dispensing."Too tall
Well, lol, a one month pilsner isn't anything to scoff at now is it?
I bet it is a lot better than a 1 month BMC product... right?
OP
OP
Cider and wine have been proposed, but no one has experimented and/or posted any results if they tried it. I am under the understanding after my experiments that it is better to vent the majority of the CO2 during fermentation (which, with the exception of my experiments, I believe all of us are doing in our various ways with this technique) and only use the remaining CO2 being produced for natural carbonation. This gets the bad stuff out of the produced CO2 and from my experience has no ill effect on the yeast or beer.
I don't know what bad stuff wines and ciders blow offs throw out compared to beer, but I would give it a shot under the same technique we use for beers. Might mean you have to secondary under pressure to get it off the lees, but other than that I bet it would be the same. Maybe not though, considering champagne is under as much as 35 psi with yeast before being disgorged and nobody talks about bad reactions to yeast or any off-tastes from the yeast remaining under those situations.
kpr121
Well-Known Member
Yeah I might give it a try with my next batch of apfelwein, cider, or regular wine. I have a couple of those going right now so I dunno when I would get around to it. If I do it Ill be sure to post here about it.
I'm somewhat thinking it might not be such a good idea for wine since all the recipes I've read have a step for degassing in order for the wine to clear and also release any sulphur smell/taste. But apfelwein might work! Maybe I'll do a 1-2 gallon test batch in an extra corny....I'll shuffle over to the grocery store at lunch and see if apple juice is on sale.
I'm somewhat thinking it might not be such a good idea for wine since all the recipes I've read have a step for degassing in order for the wine to clear and also release any sulphur smell/taste. But apfelwein might work! Maybe I'll do a 1-2 gallon test batch in an extra corny....I'll shuffle over to the grocery store at lunch and see if apple juice is on sale.
jeepinjeepin
Well-Known Member
I don't think wines yeasts like pressure.
storunner13
Well-Known Member
2 notes/questions:
Does this mean you ferment at 0 psi, and then close it off at the end to carbonate? Or do you still ferment at 5-7 psi (at least for APAs)? Since you have a lot of experience, I'm more curious for my own knowledge.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of a pressure ferment to mimic the hydrostatic pressure found in large-scale breweries? And therefore fermenting wine under pressure (5ish psi) would be similar to the hydro static pressure in the fermenting vessels of large wineries?
I've also been planning on using the pressure fermentation technique on some cider and/or graff this fall. Maybe I should try both a pressure ferment and a regular ferment...for science!
Does this mean you ferment at 0 psi, and then close it off at the end to carbonate? Or do you still ferment at 5-7 psi (at least for APAs)? Since you have a lot of experience, I'm more curious for my own knowledge.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of a pressure ferment to mimic the hydrostatic pressure found in large-scale breweries? And therefore fermenting wine under pressure (5ish psi) would be similar to the hydro static pressure in the fermenting vessels of large wineries?
I've also been planning on using the pressure fermentation technique on some cider and/or graff this fall. Maybe I should try both a pressure ferment and a regular ferment...for science!
OP
OP
No, I ferment at 5-7psi. At this pressure it is blowing off the majority of bad stuff in the gas. When I feel like the majority of points are eaten up, I ramp up the pressure for carbonation and over-shoot a bit just for the ability to release any extra later. I'd rather be a bit over than under.
I would say yes, with the exception that wine is different than beer and this might actually lead to a home winemaker being able to out surpass a big boy due to equipment. I know initially they want gas out of wine, but in the end it is OK for carbonation.
That was why I was commenting about champagne. If I were to do a sparkling wine/cider I would let it ride as normal (under this technique I would consider 1-5 psi OK during primary), and then after primary was finished I would let it gas out to 0. After time to settle for clarity, I would transfer to another keg and prime. At that point I would treat it like the tail end of a primary beer fermentation where I wanted carbonation and let it ramp to wanted pressure, cold crash, let time take it's course and settle, then transfer to my serving containers/keg/whatever. That's just me though, which has no experience with wine/cider what-so-ever.
Try an experiment and let us all know how it works for you. I am very interested, as the swmbo is into dry champagne and I like sparkling wines/ciders.
OP
OP
Can you get a picture of that to post here for people to visually see that? That is amazing.
Burgs
Well-Known Member
Nevermind, I'm silly.
I figured I'd throw a post up about how this idea has evolved for me. I no longer try to naturally carb, but let the yeast do their thing at about 5 psi. I let my beer sit in the sanke fermenter about two weeks, then crash cool and force carb at the same time with a spare CO2 tank. Then I counterpressure transfer and usually dry hop in a bag in the serving kegs.
Although I'm not using natural carbonation, this method is quicker than crashing cooling first and then force carbing. I love being able to take samples from my sanke fermenter with a picnic tap and pushing things around with gas rather than siphoning.
I also eventually went to a brewershardware.com kit. I just never got the hang of sanke rings. I went to snap rings for a while, but they are too thick, way too challenging to grind down thinner, and tended to pop off and release my co2 at pressures over 10psi.
Anyway, there certainly is a lot here to take in and very useful, even if, in the end, you don't ferment under pressure and naturally carb.
Although I'm not using natural carbonation, this method is quicker than crashing cooling first and then force carbing. I love being able to take samples from my sanke fermenter with a picnic tap and pushing things around with gas rather than siphoning.
I also eventually went to a brewershardware.com kit. I just never got the hang of sanke rings. I went to snap rings for a while, but they are too thick, way too challenging to grind down thinner, and tended to pop off and release my co2 at pressures over 10psi.
Anyway, there certainly is a lot here to take in and very useful, even if, in the end, you don't ferment under pressure and naturally carb.
OP
OP
Yep, just another tool in the box if you need it. My favorite part is the natural carbonation. Everything else is just secondary for me.
joeybeer
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So here are the photos !
Basically, I'd never tried a pressure transfer before and was thinking about how to start. ( nearest LHBS 100 miles )
I also needed to clean my taps, and when I saw my liquid line attached to my shank,
I thought it might fit on the sanke coupler.. And dammit it DID !!
So there is a pre made line in your kegerator, you just have to disconnect it !!
Just to be clear, the line removed from the fridge screws right on to the center liquid out on the sanke coupler, and the pin lock end goes to the liquid out on the corney for filling !!
Basically, I'd never tried a pressure transfer before and was thinking about how to start. ( nearest LHBS 100 miles )
I also needed to clean my taps, and when I saw my liquid line attached to my shank,
I thought it might fit on the sanke coupler.. And dammit it DID !!
So there is a pre made line in your kegerator, you just have to disconnect it !!
Just to be clear, the line removed from the fridge screws right on to the center liquid out on the sanke coupler, and the pin lock end goes to the liquid out on the corney for filling !!
SankePankey
Well-Known Member
Yes and the ones that go on Sankes (with MFL) also fit on the taps. I put them on for quick line length changes (since I always want light to dark on the taps in succession, which doesn't always mean carb level).
And for my next trick
Has anyone added gelatin to a corney before pressure transfer ??
I have done it before. I put the gelatin in and pressurized prior to counterflow. I know use a filter so I no longer bother with the gelatin.
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
I've done a second dry hop that way too. First dry hop goes in towards the end of fermentation and then the beer gets transferred off the yeast and hops to more hops in a CO2 purged and pressurized keg.
storunner13
Well-Known Member
I'm curious why you've ended up with this method. In some ways it's easier than naturally carbing..you just set it, forget it, and then put it on gas in the fridge. Do you do so for better results, simplicity, or just because it works? God knows there are thousands of steps to brewing beer which people might do because "it's what I do, and it works".
Just trying to get some insight from those who have used this method a few times more than me (maybe not for long...
)
joeybeer
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I've got a new note/observation ! I use a 15.5 gallon normal US keg, and I cut exactly 1" off the spear to keep muck out of the serving kegs. I've been dying to know how much liquid was left in the fermenter after it went dry during transfer, I was able to measure it tonight and it was 2 quarts of trub, so not too shabby !!
1MadScientist
Well-Known Member
I had a leaking keg lid the first 60 hours but managed to pressure ferment from there forward.
I counter-pressure transferred my beer this morning. It was very easy and un-eventful. So easy even a cave man can do it. I had 7 psi of carbonation already on my finished beer at 35*F, so it was ready to drink, IMO. That's a 14 day 'cube-to-glass'. This is my first pressure ferment, it is very drinkable, and an easy process. Count me in as a believer. :rockin: I believe, brother WortMonger, I believe.
This is absolutely delicious.
9 # 2-row
8 oz biscuit
8 oz carapils
1 # golden naked oats
3.6 oz FWH of Palisades.
That's about a 1.057 starting gravity or so.
I'm sticking with BIAB and the "Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique". I no-chill but am not afraid to whip out my IC.
Now for my next trick, 10 gallon batches and I'll be sitting pretty, woo.
I counter-pressure transferred my beer this morning. It was very easy and un-eventful. So easy even a cave man can do it. I had 7 psi of carbonation already on my finished beer at 35*F, so it was ready to drink, IMO. That's a 14 day 'cube-to-glass'. This is my first pressure ferment, it is very drinkable, and an easy process. Count me in as a believer. :rockin: I believe, brother WortMonger, I believe.
This is absolutely delicious.
9 # 2-row
8 oz biscuit
8 oz carapils
1 # golden naked oats
3.6 oz FWH of Palisades.
That's about a 1.057 starting gravity or so.
I'm sticking with BIAB and the "Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique". I no-chill but am not afraid to whip out my IC.
Now for my next trick, 10 gallon batches and I'll be sitting pretty, woo.
OP
OP
Awesome, just awesome!
OP
OP
I think mine is a 1/4" cut-off and I get 1qt left in the keg, which is minimal seeing as there is a lot of yeast in that quart.
OP
OP
At work and boredom has struck. Been thinking about vacuums and how they can boil and freeze a liquid. What if you could boil with a vacuum, chill with a vacuum, then pitch and ferment under pressure?
OP
OP
Now that would be a truly pressure brew!
OP
OP
Woohoo 1000 posts! Sorry, just had to get the big one posted myself, lol.
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